AVS and NT versus other clone machines

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

6 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

To me it was worth it, specifically to remove the lag that's present whenever playing my original system(s) hooked up to a modern TV.  Regardless of the TV used (mine, friends', etc.), there was always a detectable level of lag that threw off gameplay in anything action oriented.  With the AVS?  I've never once had that experience, across the same TVs that my original systems were used with as well as new ones which have entered various households.
 

Even if it might not seem like it, there's still a detectable amount of lag present even on the NES Mini.  A friend of mine got one when they were still unobtainium and was absolutely thrilled with it...right up until I pointed out that I could feel lag on the more action oriented games (Mega Man 2 & Ninja Gaiden) and proved it to him using my AVS.  I got a call a few days later letting me know that he was looking into picking up an AVS as he couldn't not feel the lag when playing anymore and suddenly understood why games seemed harder than they were when he was a kid.  If accuracy in controls and gameplay are really important to you, the AVS is a good investment.

Yeah, lag is an issue because of playing in the NES weekly contests. I have a NES Classic and the lag completely throws my timing off. My TV has a "game mode" setting, but the lag was still noticible compared to the original NES. I always use Punch Out as a test and I was struggling on the NES Classic to get my timing down, when I had no issues when I switched to the actual NES on the same TV. To research this even more I broke out my CRT and moved the NES over to it and I was reacting too early so there must still be some lag even with the original NES set to "game mode".

[Tulpa | 3,492]

1 hour ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I think we both got Everdrives about the same time so I know my firmware is current on that, but I don't know what the current run of AVS consoles ships with.

I think they ship with whatever firmware is current, but you can get the latest at https://www.retrousb.com/downloads and upload it through the USB power cable and scoreboard software.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

3 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I think they ship with whatever firmware is current, but you can get the latest at https://www.retrousb.com/downloads and upload it through the USB power cable and scoreboard software.

My main issue with that is that I'm currently without a computer (my phone basically works for all of my online needs) and I'm old and lack computer knowledge when it comes to this stuff. I bought my Everdrive preloaded with the full NES library because I thought it was beyond my computer skills. 

[Tulpa | 3,492]

15 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

My main issue with that is that I'm currently without a computer (my phone basically works for all of my online needs) and I'm old and lack computer knowledge when it comes to this stuff. I bought my Everdrive preloaded with the full NES library because I thought it was beyond my computer skills. 

You can probably email RetroUSB and make sure the firmware is up to date before they ship.

Updating it is pretty foolproof. You just need a computer, the firmware, the scoreboard software, and the AVS and its USB cord. Takes five minutes, if that. I think you can run the scoreboard software off a USB stick, so you don't have to install it on someone else's computer. 

Edit: they put all the links here now.

https://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=78&osCsid=bd2217769003abaafcad2ac6c24d736e

Edited December 9, 2019 by Tulpa

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

I guess they would ship it with the current firmware. My Everdrive had a folder of hacks and imports that I didn't need so I used a friend's computer with a SD card reader to try and thin it out and somehow bricked the OS. Luckily I backed up the game folders and was able to follow a YouTube video to format it and reinstall the software. I swear that I could brick an actual brick by touching it. That's why I still play 35 year old video games. If I had a PS4 I would probably be the catalyst to set off Skynet.

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

2 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

Even if it might not seem like it, there's still a detectable amount of lag present even on the NES Mini.  A friend of mine got one when they were still unobtainium and was absolutely thrilled with it...right up until I pointed out that I could feel lag on the more action oriented games (Mega Man 2 & Ninja Gaiden) and proved it to him using my AVS.  I got a call a few days later letting me know that he was looking into picking up an AVS as he couldn't not feel the lag when playing anymore and suddenly understood why games seemed harder than they were when he was a kid.  If accuracy in controls and gameplay are really important to you, the AVS is a good investment.

I have the same complaints. The lag on the NES Classic is quite off-putting. It's also present on the SNES Classic and makes a lot of the games feel wrong. Thankfully the Nt doesn't have this problem.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

11 minutes ago, DoctorEncore said:

I have the same complaints. The lag on the NES Classic is quite off-putting. It's also present on the SNES Classic and makes a lot of the games feel wrong. Thankfully the Nt doesn't have this problem.

I'm still not sure what the difference between the NT and AVS is other than I think the AVS is the cheaper one. I don't notice much lag on my LCD with a NES, but the picture on a HDTV isn't the best even after adjusting all of the display settings.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

1 minute ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I'm still not sure what the difference between the NT and AVS is other than I think the AVS is the cheaper one.

Nt adds an aluminum shell and 1080p capability. AVS tops out at 720p, but if you have a 4k TV, both will scale up to it perfectly. The AVS can work on a 1080p just fine, though.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

2 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I'm still not sure what the difference between the NT and AVS is other than I think the AVS is the cheaper one. I don't notice much lag on my LCD with a NES, but the picture on a HDTV isn't the best even after adjusting all of the display settings.

The NT Mini uses a slightly bigger FPGA, as I understand it, which is what allows it to do 1080p while the AVS is stuck at 720p.  Additionally, the NT Mini had "jailbreak" firmware released for it which allows it to become a whole host of other popular 8-bit systems (2600, Colecovision, Intellivision, Odyssey2, etc.) and play ROMs off the SD card.

1 minute ago, Tulpa said:

Nt adds an aluminum shell and 1080p capability. AVS tops out at 720p, but if you have a 4k TV, both will scale up to it perfectly. The AVS can work on a 1080p just fine, though.

...yeah, what he said!  

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

2 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Nt adds an aluminum shell and 1080p capability. AVS tops out at 720p, but if you have a 4k TV, both will scale up to it perfectly. The AVS can work on a 1080p just fine, though.

If it helps any, I got a cheap $99 Sharp 24" TV that's only 720p since I wanted a gaming TV so I just want something that won't lag or blur.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

3 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

If it helps any, I got a cheap $99 Sharp 24" TV that's only 720p since I wanted a gaming TV so I just want something that won't lag or blur.

Either one would be fine. The Nt and Nt mini are currently only available on the second hand market, though.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

4 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Either one would be fine. The Nt and Nt mini are currently only available on the second hand market, though.

Well I guess that puts my options at stay with the NES or go for the AVS. I'm not sure the 720p is worth an extra $200 unless there's more benefits to the AVS that I'm missing. 

[Lincoln | 230]

HD TV's have to do some processing to put the old nes composite video in a modern screen. Good TV's will do it faster, and game mode helps, but it's still more than what a native HDMI signal takes.

Your nes classic is laggy likely due to the limitations of using software emulation to reproduce NES hardware. Avs and nt mini are direct hardware implementations, so they don't have those limitations.

Avs and nt mini are comparable products, with nt mini having more features. You can't buy those new anymore though. 

Im very happy with my avs but it does have some compatibly issues. An original nes with the HDMI mod is probably the best case scenario at the moment.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

2 minutes ago, Lincoln said:

HD TV's have to do some processing to put the old nes composite video in a modern screen. Good TV's will do it faster, and game mode helps, but it's still more than what a native HDMI signal takes.

Your nes classic is laggy likely due to the limitations of using software emulation to reproduce NES hardware. Avs and nt mini are direct hardware implementations, so they don't have those limitations.

Avs and nt mini are comparable products, with nt mini having more features. You can't buy those new anymore though. 

Im very happy with my avs but it does have some compatibly issues. An original nes with the HDMI mod is probably the best case scenario at the moment.

Currently I'm using a stock NES with stock AV cables and an Everdrive. Compatibility issues is also a concern. With my NES, everything on my Everdrive works. I am worried that using a flash cart on an aftermarket system may be a problem.

[Lincoln | 230]

11 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

Currently I'm using a stock NES with stock AV cables and an Everdrive. Compatibility issues is also a concern. With my NES, everything on my Everdrive works. I am worried that using a flash cart on an aftermarket system may be a problem.

I know I've played my buddy's everdrive on my avs. I don't recall anything that didn't work. 

GenerallyI would be aware that the avs or everdrive may have compatibly issues individually but at this point putting them together shouldn't be a concern.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

Just now, Lincoln said:

I know I've played my buddy's everdrive on my avs. I don't recall anything that didn't work. 

GenerallyI would be aware that the avs or everdrive may have compatibly issues individually but at this point putting them together shouldn't be a concern.

I saw a couple youtube reviews where they had issues, but I think they said it was fixed after updating the firmware on the AVS and Everdrive. I got the OS loading error on my Everdrive and had to redo the entire thing so I know it's up to date. I just don't know if the AVS ships with the latest firmware or if you just get what they have since they come sealed in a box.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

Well, I went ahead and ordered an AVS, so I guess I'll follow up when I get it. Hopefully everything works and I can retire my 32 year old NES while it still works. 

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

@Bearcat-Doug The avs does not produce any lag but your tv can. 
 

It’s noticeable enough for me that I only use my avs for casual use. 
 

nes/crt for weekly contest.
 

When we played excitebike I had family in town and tried to use the avs to share what I was doing. It was pretty noticeable. 
I reckon if you get a really nice tv or gaming monitor it would eliminate any lag. 

[Tanooki | 4,932]

Am I in the minority here with the hi def nes kit then in my top loader as I don’t see much in n comparison drawn there as it’s its own beast too. 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

7 minutes ago, skinnygrinny said:

@Bearcat-Doug The avs does not produce any lag but your tv can. 
 

It’s noticeable enough for me that I only use my avs for casual use. 
 

nes/crt for weekly contest.
 

When we played excitebike I had family in town and tried to use the avs to share what I was doing. It was pretty noticeable. 
I reckon if you get a really nice tv or gaming monitor it would eliminate any lag. 

Well we know I can beat you in the weekly contests with a pad and paper.

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

14 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

Well we know I can beat you in the weekly contests with a pad and paper.

Lie. You’ve never beat me at tic tac toe.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

16 minutes ago, skinnygrinny said:

Lie. You’ve never beat me at tic tac toe.

I could beat you at Color a Dinosaur if I was blind.

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

3 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I could beat you at Color a Dinosaur if I was blind.

Lol. Well in a few years we will see if that’s true old man. 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

3 minutes ago, skinnygrinny said:

Lol. Well in a few years we will see if that’s true old man. 

Maybe next year. I don't know what's on the schedule!

[Jono1874 | 144]

7 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

 there's still a detectable amount of lag present even on the NES Mini.  A friend of mine got one when they were still unobtainium and was absolutely thrilled with it...right up until I pointed out that I could feel lag on the more action oriented games (Mega Man 2 & Ninja Gaiden) and proved it to him using my AVS.  I got a call a few days later letting me know that he was looking into picking up an AVS as he couldn't not feel the lag when playing anymore and suddenly understood why games seemed harder than they were when he was a kid.  If accuracy in controls and gameplay are really important to you, the AVS is a good investment.

I did a lag test using the 240p Test Suite on both the AVS and the NES Mini. The AVS is comparable to my front loader. The NES mini on the otherhand averaged 4 frames of lag. It's basically unplayable unless you're playing RPGs.

I'm extremely picky with NES games. I refuse to play in emulators, and generally refuse to use clone consoles EXCEPT the AVS because it is so ridiculously accurate. I got mine for christmas the year it came out and was won over with it pretty quickly. I've never used an Analogue NT but from what I hear it's at least as good as the AVS. Too bad they don't make them anymore.

I'd go so far as to say that the AVS is a worthy successor to the original hardware, unlike the NES Mini, which is dogshit in comparison. Not only is it laggy, but sound emulation is incorrect and in some cases worse than what you'll find with your average NOAC clone. It's a shame that Nintendo would trash the NES' legacy with such an insultingly bad product.