CRT Revival?

[themisfit138 | 523]

Not going to happen. It makes no business sense. The profit margins would be almost nonexistent with the cost of manufacture and shipping. We just have to make due with the CRTs we can find. I currently have two. A 2006 23” Sony and a 2000 24” Magnavox.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

7 hours ago, Sumez said:

I think making CRTs without mass production will cause them to be extremely expensive however, but I'm also expecting to see top notch quality and compatibility, similar to PVMs or MS9 monitors.

How much would you be willing to pay for one? I can't see them being less than high five figures, probably a lot more.

[TylerBarnes | 184]

I imagine if people started to make CRTs again it would go down just as badly as modern companies these days trying to make cassette tape decks. The components made are not good quality anymore since they are not the leading technology nor are they really in demand. While retro gamers like them, we are a niche (sure a large one). The general population would still not be buying them in the same numbers as the past and broadcast companies are not buying PVMs anymore. So there is no real market for high end CRTs right now. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by TylerBarnes

[Sign Collector Guy | 334]

5 hours ago, skinnygrinny said:

Ya buddy. Crt junkie. 
I’m always looking for a crt

310 holy grail lol  

Love my 310. Daily player. lol (I did pay $20 for it though a few years back. lol)

Edited December 4, 2019 by Sign Collector Guy

[Teh_Lurv | 254]

7 hours ago, trj22487 said:

Don't they still make and sell them in China?

I don't think so. IIRC, the last legit new CRTs that were sold were 13" inch CRT TV/DVD combo units dressed in blue/pink Disney casing for kids. This was I think in around 2010 or so.

I don't think we'll ever see a revival of CRTs simply due to the cost of manufacturing, environmental impact, and them being a PITA to ship. In addition, CRT TVs are still ubiquitous in the US. Older homes may still have a 13-27" CRT set up as a secondary set or sitting in storage in the basement/attic. If a revival ever does happen, it'll probably take the form of a refurbishment of old sets. From what I understand, it is the circuit boards in CRTs that usually are the first to go. I could see a cottage industry of people stripping down old sets, replacing everything but the glass tubes, then reselling them to hipsters for four figures.

 

[MachineCode | 159]

I will not play old consoles on anything but a CRT. CRT scaling filters just don’t look like the real thing.
I own a regular 24inch CRT with built in DVD and VCR from 06, a 14” PVM, a 37” Mitsubishi MegaView broadcast monitor that I need to recap one day that is literally in a flight case and weighs as much as a Gundam, and a 17” PC CRT that I bought a few years ago that was NOS from 04. Love me some tubes.

I don’t see the technology coming back due to environmental concerns and a limited market. But, there is an alternative that can be made to do what we want, and that is the Laser Phosphor Display. It uses a near uv laser (similar to Blu-ray) to excite phosphors through a slot mask. While not as thin, it can be made to about 5” deep for a good size screen, so way thinner than a CRT, and the beam can be deflected by a 2d MEMS mirror rig, eliminating the need for high voltages, large electromagnets, and a giant vacuum tube while drawing less power than your average coffee maker.
 

Currently, they are being used for video wall tech. https://www.prysm.com/displays/lpd-6k-series/laser-phosphor-display/

Patent for more info

LPD Patent Docs

 

it honestly seems like something that can be done as a DIY. About 3 years ago I found a cheap laser phosphor pico projector that did 480p (16:9 equivalent) that could be hacked apart to form the basis of the tech. IMO the hardest part would be making a phosphor deposited screen and slot mask for the lasers to fire at and preventing ocular damage in the case of a screen breaking. Although Prysm seems to have figured that last one out.

[arnpoly | 198]

6 hours ago, skinnygrinny said:

Crt or die!

Zapper games or die!

[Tulpa | 3,492]

19 minutes ago, arnpoly said:

Zapper games or die!

Hasn't someone solved at least a few of the games?

[Abelardo | 154]

Analog video will die out, there are simply not good enough consumer level analog video formats to keep them around. I would assume we'll be getting better and better solutions to plug our old consoles in modern LCD TVs that the demand for top of the line CRT TVs will drop even further. CRTs TVs are ridiculously plentiful, most of you have been getting them for free nowadays, they're very reliable and even if they fail they can be repaired, I really cannot imagine suddenly becoming desirable again in general.

[cartman | 195]

No that won't happen. The vinyls you're referring to are still a novelty because you'll never find that it's 50-50 and you can choose whether you want that or a regular CD. Out of all the millions of CD's that are released in the world, those that you know of having been released on vinyl you know them exactly for that reason: because it's an exception. Technology never really makes "comebacks" it's only few enthusiasts who are into it.

[SNESNESCUBE64 | 537]

 I have my doubts, I would assume it to be too expensive and way too niche. On top it that, CRTs aren't necessarily the most efficient devices. They are bulky, heavy, and consume large amounts of power. With the rapid advancement of scaling and adapter technology, I honestly believe there won't be a need for CRTs. However, I do not think it is out of the realm of possibility. For example, there was a resurgence of Nixie tubes, new ones are even being manufactured but are insanely expensive.

The other thing is you can still find crts. You gotta bear in mind, color crts were mass produced by the millions for well over 40 years. Every so often, I see them on the side of the road, if you guys are that concerned about them disappearing, pick them up, rgb mod them, and find them a home. 

That said. I believe that they are essential to certain experiences, particularly in arcade cabinets. I also would never get rid of my RGB capible NEC autocolor. I love that 150lb box of wood and glass.

[arnpoly | 198]

21 hours ago, Tulpa said:

Hasn't someone solved at least a few of the games?

Yeah, but until they figure out stuff like the Zapper segment in Daydreaming Davey, I'm not interested.  

[Teh_Lurv | 254]

On 12/4/2019 at 9:53 AM, skinnygrinny said:

Crt or die!

CRT or die! die,die,die,die!

CRT or die!

CRT,CRT,CRT,CRT,CRT or die! dididididie!

 

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

52 minutes ago, Teh_Lurv said:

CRT or die! die,die,die,die!

CRT or die!

CRT,CRT,CRT,CRT,CRT or die! dididididie!

 

C.R.T! C.R.T! C.R.T!

[m308gunner | 352]

Coming back? No. Starting to heat up for niche uses/hobbies in my area? A bit more than I'd like.

[Rooster | 124]

Do any of you guys have experience using OSSC?  How does it compare to using a CRT?  I had a Sanyo flat screen CRT television when I lived in the US, but if I used it for more than a few hours it would get a green spot on the screen. 

[Mario_Friend1982 | 174]

On 12/4/2019 at 2:18 AM, NEET.dreams said:

I remember about 10 years ago I started to notice vinyl records were making a comeback. More and more stores selling those record/cd players that looked like old time radios, more and more new artists releasing albums on vinyl. I said to a friend of mine that with everything going digital records were going to make a comeback for physical collectors. He called me crazy. Now I go into my local walmart, target etc they all have vinyl record sections. 

My question is this. Do you guys think we'll ever see a similar revival for CRT TVs? 
I find a CRT TV to be a far more necessary component to the experience of playing retro video games than vinyl records are to the experience of listening to music.

What do you guys think? I would love to see brand new CRT TVs in stores. They could make them HDMI compatible. It would be great. 

So would I!

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

Just got myself a gaming monitor not long ago, works good I love CRTs too, but they're such a pain in the ass to move

[Mario_Friend1982 | 174]

59 minutes ago, BortLicensePlate said:

Just got myself a gaming monitor not long ago, works good I love CRTs too, but they're such a pain in the ass to move

Where or how did you get it?

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

45 minutes ago, Mario_Friend1982 said:

Where or how did you get it?

Got it at best buy, it has low latency so that's not a concern. And I dont mind the lack of scanlines or light gun games. It does everything I need it too

[Sumez | 2,949]

8 hours ago, Rooster said:

Do any of you guys have experience using OSSC?  How does it compare to using a CRT?  I had a Sanyo flat screen CRT television when I lived in the US, but if I used it for more than a few hours it would get a green spot on the screen. 

An OSSC does a lot of good things, but it's a very different experience.

It eliminates upscaling lag almost entirely (though your TV might still add a bunch by itself), and gives you a better picture than any HDTV with RGB support would on their own. But I think there's a very obvious effect from trying to understand an analog signal and convert it into a digital HDMI image, pixel-by-pixel.

Every single source needs its own individual configuration, which takes a lot of crazy analog magic into account (like phase, offset, target horizontal resolution, and a trillion other little things), and there are some consoles that I never got to look really nice, such as the SNES. Compare a CRT - you just plug it in, and you get a completely crisp near pixel perfect image.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Sumez

[Rooster | 124]

1 hour ago, Sumez said:

An OSSC does a lot of good things, but it's a very different experience.

It eliminates upscaling lag almost entirely (though your TV might still add a bunch by itself), and gives you a better picture than any HDTV with RGB support would on their own. But I think there's a very obvious effect from trying to understand an analog signal and convert it into a digital HDMI image, pixel-by-pixel.

Every single source needs its own individual configuration, which takes a lot of crazy analog magic into account (like phase, offset, target horizontal resolution, and a trillion other little things), and there are some consoles that I never got to look really nice, such as the SNES. Compare a CRT - you just plug it in, and you get a completely crisp near pixel perfect image.

I've never used an OSSC or upscaler myself, but I know CarcinogenSDA uses one on his stream to great effect.  The issue I run into personally is my TV constantly resizing the image of my old consoles.  It's hard to explain but mid game without changing any settings the picture will change resolution and sometimes cut off text.  I hate it.

[Sumez | 2,949]

Sounds like a HDTV issue.

For those TVs OSSC is absolutely the best possible solution. I was trying to compare the experience to a pure CRT setup.

[Sega Genesis Sage | 15]

The big downside with CRTs wasn't so much picture quality (as CRTs routinely trounced flat panels when they were both available on the market), but size/weight. There's just something about a TV that's flat that really appeals to people, and is very practical. Also, the size of flat panel TVs now is a lot larger than the biggest CRTs we ever saw.

Starting up manufacturing on CRTs again would be very very expensive. You have a lot of components there. Ever take apart a CRT TV vs a modern TV? There's a lot more stuff inside of a CRT.  Especially at the quality level people expect, you're going to be paying very high prices. Just look at how much PVMs cost in their day - thousands of dollars. And that was with some amount of economy of scale behind them.

And even if you did get together enough people that wanted new CRTs, and were willing to pay the high price for one, the last large, high end CRTs were manufactured.... 15ish years ago? The engineering knowledge is going to be tough to find, and it may at this point have been lost to time. If anything, you'd end up with a much lower quality CRT than the top end CRTs of yesteryear.

Also, CRTs aren't magical, gaming on a CRT isn't going to immediately eliminate all the lag we see with flat panels. That's because much of the lag we see nowadays is because of digital processing of the picture. Later model CRTs that had HDMI inputs suffered from some lag as well.

Finally, the vinyl comparison doesn't hold up, because vinyl is relatively cheap and compact. A vinyl record is a small investment, and the player can be easily moved around, or integrated into an existing home theatre setup. A CRT (especially a large one) requires a much bigger physical space investment.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Sega Genesis Sage

[Sumez | 2,949]

1 hour ago, Sega Genesis Sage said:

Also, CRTs aren't magical, gaming on a CRT isn't going to immediately eliminate all the lag we see with flat panels. That's because much of the lag we see nowadays is because of digital processing of the picture. Later model CRTs that had HDMI inputs suffered from some lag as well.

By this logic (which is correct), playing on a CRT would eliminate lag. At least the manner of lag you're talking about here.

EDIT: Unless of course you meant a CRT rendering a digital video output via HDMI etc.? Yes, that would still lag just as bad. I think it's implied here that one of the primary ideas behind using a CRT, is to display analog video.

I guess a better point here is that nowadays lag also comes from a lot of other sources. Game engine bloat and managed code, controller drivers and wireless protocols, operating systems, etc. etc. Hell, even game logic. There are so many factors outside of just the video output. But the video output is definitely still a big one in today's world.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Sumez