When Is A Variant Considered Its Own Game?

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

I'm looking for objective, quantitative answers here. Saying something like, "No that doesn't count because it isn't different enough" isn't helpful because I can't use "different enough" in an algorithm across all games. I want one definitive answer that causes 2 games to be different in all categories. Here are some arguments to consider:

1. The Legend Of Zelda: Ocarina Of Time version 1.0 / The Legend Of Zelda: Ocarina Of Time version 1.1 - the cartridges technically have different code on them but how different does it need to be?
2. The Legend Of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Gamecube) / The Legend Of Zelda Twilight Princess (Wii) - these are on different consoles but still just the same game on disc. I think I did read somewhere that Link is left handed in one and right handed in the other.
3. Contra / Probotector - both have different code, both on the same console, different title screens, different titles. Are they the same game?
4. Super Mario Bros. (NES) / Super Mario Bros. (Famicom) - the first print was literally the Famicom game in a NES shell with a converter. You can't tell me these are different.
5. World Class Track Meet / Stadium Events - same game just different title screen and different titles.
6. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles / Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles - regional name change from North America to Asia. Just like the point above, different title screen and different title, are they different? One rule must apply to both scenarios.
7. Mike Tyson's Punch Out!! / Punch-Out - same game except for title screen, title and end boss, what do you think?
8. Ninja Gaiden / Shadow Warrior - regional name change between North America and Asia / Europe. Does it count?
9. Final Fantasy III / Final Fantasy 6 - another regional name change from North America to Aisa
10. Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade (Taito) / Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade (UBI Soft) - both have the same title, same box art, two completely different games.

 

So what are the qualifiers for the game to be different?

• Different box art?
• Different title?
• Different console?
• Different title screen?
• Different game code?

[SNESNESCUBE64 | 541]

Core gameplay differences make it a different game in my opinion.

[PII | 1,886]

If the code affecting the actual game play is different and producing noticeable and significant difference in game play then technically you've got two different games eg. Castlevania 5-Screw / Castlevania 3-Screw.  

[PII | 1,886]

Things like titles and title screens don't generally affect gameplay and thus do not make a different game.  There is some room for discussion/argument over largely subjective features that are noticeable and significant such as music.  Famicom games tend to have an edgier sound than NES games due to a higher quality sound chip.  One could argue that makes for a better gaming experience such that the gameplay feels different.  I personally would not argue that the difference makes them different games. 

What about Mermaids of Atlantis and Bubble Bath Babes?  I haven't played the latter but from what I understand, the only difference is the presence or absence of a bikini top on the mermaid lounging at the bottom of the screen.  If that is in fact the case, then it is a difference in the game but does not effect game play in any direct concrete way.  Again one could argue that it affects the gameplay indirectly.  No bikini top is clearly more distracting to the player, but once again I would not argue that it makes a different game.

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

23 minutes ago, SNESNESCUBE64 said:

Core gameplay differences make it a different game in my opinion.

 

21 minutes ago, PII said:

If the code affecting the actual game play is different and producing noticeable and significant difference in game play then technically you've got two different games eg. Castlevania 5-Screw / Castlevania 3-Screw.  

 

9 minutes ago, PII said:

Things like titles and title screens don't generally affect gameplay and thus do not make a different game.  There is some room for discussion/argument over largely subjective features that are noticeable and significant such as music.  Famicom games tend to have an edgier sound than NES games due to a higher quality sound chip.  One could argue that makes for a better gaming experience such that the gameplay feels different.  I personally would not argue that the difference makes them different games. 

What about Mermaids of Atlantis and Bubble Bath Babes?  I haven't played the latter but from what I understand, the only difference is the presence or absence of a bikini top on the mermaid lounging at the bottom of the screen.  If that is in fact the case, then it is a difference in the game but does not effect game play in any direct concrete way.  Again one could argue that it affects the gameplay indirectly.  No bikini top is clearly more distracting to the player, but once again I would not argue that it makes a different game.

Neither of these are quantitative in any measurable way. I need something I can objectively apply to any game.

[TDIRunner | 2,741]

One example I like to use is for the PS1 game ESPN Extreme Games.  It's an early release title with similar gameplay to Road Rash.  They eventually made a sequel, but lost the ESPN licensing.  The sequel was called 2Xtreme and they eventually released a third game called 3Xtreme.  

In between the 2nd and 3rd game releases, Sony started the Greatest Hits line and ESPN Extreme Games qualified.  As mentioned before, the ESPN licensing had expired, so the game was renamed to 1Xtreme, to fit the branding of the 2nd and 3rd releases.  The code of the game was changed to remove anything ESPN related from the game and of course it had a completely different title screen. 

With that said, 1Xtreme is not considered a separate game from ESPN Extreme Games in the PS1 library.  The primary reason is that 1Xtreme was ONLY released under the Greatest Hits banner, and a game can only be released under that banner if it's sold a certain number of copies previously.  As such, ESPN Extreme Games and 1Xtreme are counted as a single title in the North American set. 

Luckily, both versions of the game are relatively cheap and easy to find, so it's easy to add both to a collection.    

Edited August 3, 2023 by TDIRunner

[Gloves | 11,783]

Just now, Code Monkey said:

Neither of these are quantitative in any measurable way. I need something I can objectively apply to any game.

You're not going to get that.

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

6 minutes ago, TDIRunner said:

One example I like to use is for the PS1 game ESPN Extreme Games.  It's an early release title with similar gameplay to Road Rash.  They eventually made a sequel, but lost the ESPN licensing.  The sequel was called 2Xtreme and they eventually released a third game called 3Xtreme.  

In between the 2nd and 3rd game releases, Sony started the Greatest Hits line and ESPN Extreme Games qualified.  As mentioned before, the ESPN licensing had expired, so the game was renamed to 1Xtreme, to fit the branding of the 2nd and 3rd releases.  The code of the game was changed to remove anything ESPN related from the game and of course it had a completely different title screen. 

With that said, 1Xtreme is not considered a separate game from ESPN Extreme Games in the PS1 library.  The primary reason is that 1Xtreme was ONLY released under the Greatest Hits banner, and a game can only be released under that banner if it's sold a certain number of copies previously.  As such, ESPN Extreme Games and 1Xtreme are counted as a single title in the North American set. 

Luckily, both versions of the game are relatively cheap and easy to find, so it's easy to find both for a collection.    

This supports World Class Track Meet as a variant of Stadium Events.

[SNESNESCUBE64 | 541]

8 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Neither of these are quantitative in any measurable way. I need something I can objectively apply to any game.

This isn't an easily measurable topic. Hence why I said "in my opinion". It's an opinion piece.

Edited August 2, 2023 by SNESNESCUBE64

[Tulpa | 3,506]

14 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Neither of these are quantitative in any measurable way. I need something I can objectively apply to any game.

If it was quantitative, people would have done it decades ago when NES/Atari/whatever collecting got started. The reason it hasn't been settled is because a lot of it is subjective and you can find exceptions that torpedo any attempt at making it straightforward.

Life's game collecting's messy.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Tulpa

[DarkTone | 985]

So Probotector counts?

[TDIRunner | 2,741]

28 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

This supports World Class Track Meet as a variant of Stadium Events.

Note quite, but it's certainly similar.  

World Class Track Meet was not released under a banner that required a minimum number of sales to qualify that was covered by Stadium Events sales numbers. 

For the record, I'm not making a statement as to whether WCTM and SE are variants or two different games.  I'm just saying that their situation is different from the ESPN Extreme Games and 1Xtreme.  

Edited August 2, 2023 by TDIRunner

[PII | 1,886]

9 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Neither of these are quantitative in any measurable way. I need something I can objectively apply to any game.

I would have to agree, it is not that.  If you're looking for an utterly flawless system of 1's and 0's I don't think anyone is going to hand you that on a silver platter, but maybe you could arrive at something comparable by working backwards using facts, logic, reasoning and so on...

I have a system that works well for me.  I experience no dissonance in deciding if a game is truly distinct from a´ game.  

In other words, if you can go "Tesla" and make it work, more power to you, but it might be more advantageous to go "Edison" sufficiently to arrive at an effectively workable system for your needs.

Anyway, it's a topic I feel strongly about so those are my 3 pesos for your fountain

....for now.

 

[Link | 2,713]

My totally off-the-cuff opinions:

1-2 (Zelda OoT/TP): same game, different version. Like a reprint. A hardcover book to a softcover. There are slight corrections or other differences, but it's the same game, even if a different platform. 

For purposes of your app they would fall under the same listing but still be differentiated. 

And yes, Twilight Princess on Wii is completely mirrored from the original project as a GameCube release, so that Wii players could swing the sword right-handed. In the GC version and all prior games where it's discernible, Link held his sword left-handed. 

3 (Contra / Probotector): Good question. I would also call these different versions of the same thing (like TMNT/TMHT) because they are effectively equivalent releases for their respective regions. A movie is not different because it was subtitled or dubbed for another language. They get retitled all the time. In that case it is "also known as".

4 (SMB): Same game, different platform.

5 (SE/WCTM): Different games. The project was acquired by a new party and altered to their own goals. 

6 (TMXT): Covered above. I think I have justifiably broken your argument that the same rule should apply across the board. 

7 (Punch-Out): Re-release with alteration. Same game, different title.

8-9 (Ninja Gaiddn, FF): Same game, different title. Seperate listings, which should both be included in search results for either title. (Ditto SE/WCTM)
I'm pretty sure with the FF renumbering occurrences, there is no debate that 3=VI or whatever, they are the same game.

10 (Indiana Jones): Different games. Parenthetical notation such as you did here, or version number (example 1) is helpful. 

I think you're going to want to have a lot of metadata options. Regarding different releases of same games, see how Discogs does it. They aim to have every variant. But those are under the same tent, so to speak. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Link

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,013]

What is the outcome? Like a search term or adding to a collection. Because if I add Mike Tyson Punch out to my collection, I still don't own Punch out!!

[Khromak | 768]

I agree with @RegularGuyGamer's point. In terms of what's a different game for a collection, it's a different question to what's a different game from other perspectives. I don't consider Gold/Grey Zelda to be two different games, but I'd like to track them on an app, because you can own one, the other, both, prices can be different, etc.

Are people going to also want to track # of screws? TM/R/RTM? Cover variants? Date codes? Manual revisions? Back label variant?

At a certain point you have to draw a line. It's a completely arbitrary decision and comes down to who you/your audience are. Do they want to track all that crap, or just hit a button that says they have a Super Mario Bros?

Might be best to just have tags/checkboxes and people can apply any/all they want on a per-game basis. If you have Punch-Out! and Mike Tyson's Punch-Out! then add the game twice and put the tag for Mike Tyson on one and Mr. Dream on the other. Third copy with 5 screws? Add both of those tags.

[Link | 2,713]

46 minutes ago, DarkTone said:

So Probotector counts?

Counts as what? A game? Yes, it is.

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

14 minutes ago, Khromak said:

I agree with @RegularGuyGamer's point. In terms of what's a different game for a collection, it's a different question to what's a different game from other perspectives. I don't consider Gold/Grey Zelda to be two different games, but I'd like to track them on an app, because you can own one, the other, both, prices can be different, etc.

Are people going to also want to track # of screws? TM/R/RTM? Cover variants? Date codes? Manual revisions? Back label variant?

At a certain point you have to draw a line. It's a completely arbitrary decision and comes down to who you/your audience are. Do they want to track all that crap, or just hit a button that says they have a Super Mario Bros?

Might be best to just have tags/checkboxes and people can apply any/all they want on a per-game basis. If you have Punch-Out! and Mike Tyson's Punch-Out! then add the game twice and put the tag for Mike Tyson on one and Mr. Dream on the other. Third copy with 5 screws? Add both of those tags.

I think you can open the game specific page and see all of the variants available and check those off individually as well. For Mike Tyson's Punch Out!! you can see Punch-Out as a variant and check it off. Same with 5 screw, though 3 screw would be the variant here.

[a3quit4s | 4,102]

Same name, same game (game names changed for regional stuff deserve a different argument). I guess for regional as long as only the name, splash screen, and language are the only things that changed I consider it the same game. Any changes to levels or how you play the game constitutes a different game. 
 

I know this generally goes against what I argue about SE/WCTM but it does relieve one of worrying about TM/R/RTM, 5/3 screw, 1.1 vs 1.0. Of course some people will always be maniacal about collecting every single variant but from a casual collector this saves me from buying 8 different versions of a game. I don’t consider combo carts unique unless a game on them didn’t have its own release. Short order/eggsplode vs exertainment whatever is called on snes.  
 

You can apply these to Code Monkeys questions and get relatively good and short answers. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by a3quit4s

[DefaultGen | 5,405]

I don't think it's possible to make an objective criteria. Considering any individual criteria on its own, you'll find games that you would subjectively consider the same. So it would have to be some random conglomeration of criteria, and no matter what you pick, something is not going to fix correctly.

How do you objectively differentiate Super Bowling and NBA Hangtime on SNES vs. N64?

Both versions Hang Time are just ports of the arcade game to differently powered hardware that came out around the same time. It's the same fundamental gameplay but better graphics on N64. I would call these ports of the same game.

Super Bowling on SNES and N64 have tons of fundamental gameplay and graphics differences, although they're titled the same, put out by the same publisher, Wikipedia even considers it two versions of the same game for some reason. I would personally call these two different games.

If you add developer as a criteria, that makes the two Hang Time ports less similar to each other and the two versions of Super Bowling more similar.

This is just one of a million other little weird cases that come up when you think about this. Animal Crossing had like 5 slightly different localized/upgraded releases across 2-3 consoles (depending on whether you count the iQue separately). Which of them count? 1? Some? All?

Edited August 2, 2023 by DefaultGen

[a3quit4s | 4,102]

37 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

I don't think it's possible to make an objective criteria. Considering any individual criteria on its own, you'll find games that you would subjectively consider the same. So it would have to be some random conglomeration of criteria, and no matter what you pick, something is not going to fix correctly.

How do you objectively differentiate Super Bowling and NBA Hangtime on SNES vs. N64?

Both versions Hang Time are just ports of the arcade game to differently powered hardware that came out around the same time. It's the same fundamental gameplay but better graphics on N64. I would call these ports of the same game.

Super Bowling on SNES and N64 have tons of fundamental gameplay and graphics differences, although they're titled the same, put out by the same publisher, Wikipedia even considers it two versions of the same game for some reason. I would personally call these two different games.

If you add developer as a criteria, that makes the two Hang Time ports less similar to each other and the two versions of Super Bowling more similar.

This is just one of a million other little weird cases that come up when you think about this. Animal Crossing had like 5 slightly different localized/upgraded releases across 2-3 consoles (depending on whether you count the iQue separately). Which of them count? 1? Some? All?

This is why we can’t self regulate ourselves. Instead of coming to an agreement on what would work for 99% we’d rather bicker about the 1%. We would never have rules that were 100% applied to every little thing but at least we could define rules that satisfied 99% of what we need. This isn’t meant to be a criticism of your post, because it’s well done, more an observation of what normally happens when the collective get together to argue about something gaming related. 
 

More to your point another obvious rule makes itself known - different system, different game

Edited August 2, 2023 by a3quit4s

[DefaultGen | 5,405]

22 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

More to your point another obvious rule makes itself known - different system, different game

But the same game comes out on multiple systems all the time Not just like Castlevania on FDS vs Famicom vs NES but like... Assassin's Creed Valhalla has 5 basically identical versions. Is Famicom Disk System even a platform or is it an add-on?? Is Famicom an NES? Is JP Mega Drive the same as EU Mega Drive but US Genesis is different? Is the Heartbeat Personal Trainer its own console?? What even is a platform? Who named the Xbox Series X and why?? What are THESE? SEND HELP.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by DefaultGen

[Richardhead | 2,813]

I’m just here to fuck up your algorithm.

Anyone ever tell you you’re crazy ?

[Gloves | 11,783]

21 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

Is Famicom an NES?

[Hammerfestus | 3,847]

SMB2 & Doki Doki are the same game.