When Is A Variant Considered Its Own Game?

[Tulpa | 3,506]

18 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

The fact that they were stuff into NES shells and Not Famicom shells wasn't because of an outcry from the community. It was because they were largely being sold to Westerners, namely Americans that don't won't Famicoms in any meaningful numbers.

I agree. Coupled with that you needed a shell that would work in an original NES and cheapo licensed games like MLB or Silent Service were worth pennies, so their shells were readily available.

[T-Pac | 7,550]

1 hour ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

The uniformity is there and I can't deny that aspect but the period he's referring to wasn't about the uniformity as much as it was about the rom patches for translations.

The mass majority of the early reproductions weren't just Famicom games stuffed into NES carts. They were translates games like Sweet Home and even games like Namcot Star Wars that were translated so you didn't need a guide to know what the items in the inventory were. 

That makes a lot of sense. I've never collected reproductions so I can't speak to that scene, especially in the early 2010s. 

This just looked like a situation where an idea was being refuted because of who said it, not because of what was said - so I thought it would be prudent to point out some truth to the idea that many North American collectors opt for supplemental games in PAL format rather than Famicom just because they "match" visually. (At least until we all inevitably fall down the Japanese-import rabbit hole haha.)

[T-Pac]

[Tulpa | 3,506]

The PAL Stadium Events definitely got some love on this side of the Pond as it was much more readily available than the North American version. Especially since most sat on the shelf rather than get played.

 

[fcgamer | 4,725]

3 hours ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

The uniformity is there and I can't deny that aspect but the period he's referring to wasn't about the uniformity as much as it was about the rom patches for translations.

The mass majority of the early reproductions weren't just Famicom games stuffed into NES carts. They were translates games like Sweet Home and even games like Namcot Star Wars that were translated so you didn't need a guide to know what the items in the inventory were. 

That or rom patches that augmented original games. Just look at what was sold from the most desirable reproduction maker Time Walk Games. Their biggest sellers were undoubtedly translations and rom hacks. The fact that they were stuff into NES shells and Not Famicom shells wasn't because of an outcry from the community. It was because they were largely being sold to Westerners, namely Americans that don't won't Famicoms in any meaningful numbers.

To say that what started that crazy on the late 2000s early 2010s was the fact that people wanted FC games in NES shells is completely revisionist in that it confuses the outcome with the by product.

The outcome was people wanted games they could fucking read bc we here in America don't speak foreign languages, and Canadians I assume all know French. The by product was that we had NES and not FC so the shells matched the rest of our games. 

E: I actually feel like he's gaslighting by even suggesting it. 

 

I agree with one part, it does feel like gaslighting; however, you are the one trying to do the gaslighting, possibly in an attempt to save face for buying into the whole nonsense to begin with.

Regarding the translations bit, there were definitely people back then offering the service of burning English ROMs onto chips and then replacing the original Japanese ROMs in Famicom games with these, to make the games accessible for players. I know some people on this very forum who have some of those. 

The whole repro thing likely started out with prototypes of unreleased games and then text-heavy games such as Sweet Home or maybe some of the point and click games or RPGs. It quickly turned into anything and everything though. I even remember asking someone onetime what was translated as the game had no text, aside from the title screen. Oops!

Playing the games (and being able to understand them) wasn't the only thing though. There definitely was the format issue. People didn't want adaptors, and they wanted uniformity since they could have it. There was even a guy over there who wanted to get the Aladdin Deck Enhancer games onto regular cartridges, iirc.

I get it, we are collectors and to be such one is going to get OCD over this or over that. And the whole situation essentially pushed the Famicom and NES even further apart in terms of machines.

Interestingly enough, most Famicom collectors don't seem to give a hoot about the American games at all, but that's a discussion we already had as well.

 

[fcgamer | 4,725]

It is funny though, as people always got upset if I suggested doing repros of NES games for Famicom. People always got insulted, like why would someone even want to do that?

Well here's a good picture guide, NES running Famicom game with adaptor versus Famicom running NES game with adaptor.

It's pretty clear to me which would be the bigger issue, and which of the two should be receiving the repros, if for nothing else but a pragmatic reason. But alas, some folks just see what they want to see, without ever really trying to look at all sides of the situation.

 

[cartman | 195]

Code can be anything from text and title screens to music and gameplay. And then there's also "game" in terms of a product, something that has a title different than something else being sold.

So the issue is both in terms of programming and also an actual item/distribution when deciding what an unique game is. Aside from giving one precedence over the other there is the problem of a spectrum inside of them where things differed from one bach of units to another.

Therefor there isn't any specific point. Personally i'd measure gameplay and not sound chips or changed sprites. Return of Double Dragon and Super Double Dragon are unique games to me. But you could always force me against the wall and ask whether a single changed enemy at some spot would constitute an unique game. I'd be forced to say no, but if i were really being 100% consistent with my argument i'd really have to say yes because the gameplay by definition differs.

So to conclude there isn't any objective measures but a subjective one, and on a spectrum at that. Wherever you draw the line of it becoming too petty to care about.

 

[AlternatorDelux | 60]

My dividing line is "does the front of the box look different when you glance at it from across the room?"  This is the actual criteria I used for my NOA releases list, because I'm more interested in the way the same was sold.

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

2 hours ago, AlternatorDelux said:

My dividing line is "does the front of the box look different when you glance at it from across the room?"  This is the actual criteria I used for my NOA releases list, because I'm more interested in the way the same was sold.

The code on the games is identical, the box art changed mid production.

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,013]

On 8/6/2023 at 1:21 AM, fcgamer said:

It's pretty clear to me which would be the bigger issue, and which of the two should be receiving the repros, if for nothing else but a pragmatic reason

What part of we can't read Mandarin and Japanese don't you get? IDC if I have to put the cart in my ass to play it. If people can't read the text they're not going to play the game. It's not science, lad.

It has to be an act. This can't be something you actually think.

[Gloves | 11,783]

On 8/6/2023 at 2:21 AM, fcgamer said:

But alas, some folks just see what they want to see, without ever really trying to look at all sides of the situation.

[Leathco | 3]

I feel like this is a question that has many different variables to consider.

Many games that have a box art change but identical game I would consider the BOX to be a variant but not the actual game.  But if code changes on the game itself, I would consider it a variant game version, even if the only change is a publisher name on a title screen.

[Tulpa | 3,506]

1 hour ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

It has to be an act. This can't be something you actually think.

We were told not that long ago that Dave/fcgamer has multiple personas. So...

[fcgamer | 4,725]

2 hours ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

What part of we can't read Mandarin and Japanese don't you get? IDC if I have to put the cart in my ass to play it. If people can't read the text they're not going to play the game. It's not science, lad.

I guess you missed the part where people were writing ROM chips with English patches and putting them in Famicom games. 

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

2 hours ago, Leathco said:

I feel like this is a question that has many different variables to consider.

Many games that have a box art change but identical game I would consider the BOX to be a variant but not the actual game.  But if code changes on the game itself, I would consider it a variant game version, even if the only change is a publisher name on a title screen.

I'm not sure how I didn't think of this before, this is genius.

[FireHazard51 | 2,043]

On 8/5/2023 at 12:45 AM, MrWunderful said:

So is the point to find out if variants are different games? Or different variants? 
 

Literally anything different (label, format, tm)= variant

different code= different game 

I don't think this works well with later consoles...

Every time they print a new disc the code is updated with the latest patches.

Then there are odd balls like the one GBA game that was release with a game breaking bug and was later fixed.  I think the box and carts didn't even change.

[Tyree_Cooper | 755]

i know for sure that koei and later koei tecmo has ps2 and ps3 games that are exactly the same (in terms of disc content), but released with different cover art, cover language and even catalog number. they are my personal reference in terms of confusing releases and marketing strategies

same candy, different wrapping

so if you go this way you are following redump, where they categorise games by disc content, even when covers or catalog numbers are different. they still have exceptions, for example when the same game is released with different language subs in different regions. i think there is not a single best way to categorise everything...