When Is A Variant Considered Its Own Game?

[nrslam | 476]

In olden days, games had to be almost completely rewritten to run on different platforms due to wildly varying capabilities. A game like Frogger, for instance looks and feels different on the Atari 2600 than it does on the 5200, and different again on the Odyssey2, C64, TI99, or any of the other platforms it was released for. For the 2600 and C64, at least, the game was released by multiple companies each of which wrote thier own version. I consider all of those to be different games.

This differentiation shrinks as you advance to later console generations, to the point that I think if you're buying a game on any of the current platforms you're getting pretty much the same thing.

FWIW, I don't consider label, packaging, or even name changes, all of which were common in the 2600 days, to constitute "different" games, though they can be fun variants to collect.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

When I wrote the first volume of Family Bits, I ran into this situation quite a bit. Something like Realtec vs BIC releases where the game cartridge itself might be totally the same, but the boxes (and technically publishers, that's a whole other can of worms) were different. Same with the Yoko / Cony releases, Hummer Team's Somari versus some of their Sonic games, etc.

The formula I used to differentiate between variant and a different entity was as follows: 

"OFFICIAL" RELEASE + DIFFERENT ID CODE OR "OFFICIAL RELEASE" + DIFFERENT PUBLISHER OR OFFICIAL RELEASE + DIFFERENT TITLE SCREEN (IGNORING JUST UPDATED COPYRIGHT DATES OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE) = DIFFERENT GAME / ENTRY 

So for some games, take Somari for example. It was developed by Hummer Team, therefore for a release of it "to count", it would have to be a release endorsed by Hummer Team, rather than an Aliexpress reprint, for example.

Then for the myriad of Sonic hacks based off of it: Did Hummer Team endorse it? If the answer is yes, and the title screen or ID is different, then it's a different entity. If it wasn't endorsed, or the screen is the same, or whatever then it doesn't count. 

This worked and made it very clear what should and shouldn't be considered a different release.

[twiztor | 851]

they're all the same game. all of 'em. there's only one game (Seicross on the NES). everything else is just a variant. 

[fcgamer | 4,725]

Also, comparing across platforms is silly (i.e. NES versus Famicom), but comparing across the same platform and different regions (Contra versus Probotector) should be included.

People who are trying to collect all the NES software, for example, aren't going to be buying Famicom games though they would spring for the Euro exclusives, Mahjong, etc, and the reverse from Famicom to NES is also true. That's what gave rise to the NES repro phase of the late 2000s.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

The reason why things such as cartridge color or screw number doesn't count is because that's a manufacturer thing.

[Tanooki | 4,934]

Well another one to muck is up, Famicom and FDS.  Some games came out on disk, then later a cartridge.  Things were changed to suit the format around the audio, saving, other bits, and any quality of life fixes.  Zelda and Bio Miracle Bokutte Upa come to mind, as does Castlevania.  Nintendo counts them as an official game with some internal number on both, so they count to them as two games, but do we count them as corporate did?  Messy.

[DarkTone | 985]

7 hours ago, Link said:

Counts as what? A game? Yes, it is.

Phew. Thank god. 

[Gloves | 11,783]

3 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Also, comparing across platforms is silly (i.e. NES versus Famicom), but comparing across the same platform and different regions (Contra versus Probotector) should be included.

People who are trying to collect all the NES software, for example, aren't going to be buying Famicom games though they would spring for the Euro exclusives, Mahjong, etc, and the reverse from Famicom to NES is also true. That's what gave rise to the NES repro phase of the late 2000s.

The NES and Famicom are the same platform, just different regions.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

56 minutes ago, Gloves said:

The NES and Famicom are the same platform, just different regions.

Hong Kong received both the NES and Famicom. Besides, the software requires adaptors to work on the other machine, and a large portion of the library isn't shared. We can get into the debate again if we want, but treating them as the same thing for CodeMonkey's project would just be opening up another huge can of worms, when it comes to licensing issues and what not.

[Gloves | 11,783]

25 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Hong Kong received both the NES and Famicom. Besides, the software requires adaptors to work on the other machine, and a large portion of the library isn't shared. We can get into the debate again if we want, but treating them as the same thing for CodeMonkey's project would just be opening up another huge can of worms, when it comes to licensing issues and what not.

I use an HDMI to Thunderbolt USB adapter to connect my monitor to my Surface Pro, but it's still a monitor and a tablet/laptop being hooked up to each other. And a single area getting both versions of a thing does not preclude that they are not versions of each other.

I need a Japanese PS2 to play my Japanese PS2 games, it's still a PS2. I could mod my NA PS2 to play JP PS2 games if I wanted to, a simple adaptation lets them both play the same software. And I HAVE a JP PS2 because the libraries have differences. I can't buy the North American version of Shinobido because it doesn't exist.

Same with the NES and famicom - with minor hardware adjustments, the software works exactly the same from one to the other, both ways around. Because they're the same platform, just with different hardware configurations. Whether they share the same library is irrelevant as that's a mix of what's popular in one region versus the other, paired with licensing - nobody is going to license Mahjong for a North American audience in the 80's, that's pointless from a monetary standpoint.

[Link | 2,713]

5 hours ago, nrslam said:

In olden days, games had to be almost completely rewritten to run on different platforms due to wildly varying capabilities. A game like Frogger, for instance looks and feels different on the Atari 2600 than it does on the 5200, and different again on the Odyssey2, C64, TI99, or any of the other platforms it was released for. For the 2600 and C64, at least, the game was released by multiple companies each of which wrote thier own version. I consider all of those to be different games.

I was gonna bring up Kung Fu / Kung Fu Master, along these lines. Different platforms, obviously different games. The presentation (graphics and sound) are much different. So is the control scheme. With modern consoles the aesthetic differences may be less obvious, but they are quite clearly different things since you can't put a Playstation disc in an Xbox or computer and have it work, never mind a Switch lol

 

[fcgamer | 4,725]

28 minutes ago, Gloves said:

use an HDMI to Thunderbolt USB adapter to connect my monitor to my Surface Pro, but it's still a monitor and a tablet/laptop being hooked up to each other. And a single area getting both versions of a thing does not preclude that they are not versions of each other.

I have no idea what those things are. I'd have to do more research to be able to draw a conclusion either way.

[T-Pac | 7,550]

If I were making a collection tracker, I would take a modular, "umbrella" approach to categorizing games.

- Console (each region is its own category)
--- Game (first release is the stock-entry)
------ Variant (all title changes, graphical changes, code changes, publisher changes, etc. get their own check-box)
------ Variant
------ Variant

This allows for as much or as little minutiae as the collector wants as far as tracking goes, and it eliminates a lot of regional confusion (Gryzor/Contra/Probotector, Final Fantasy III/VI, Dragon Quest/Warrior are separate entries under their respective regional consoles). The "first release" naming convention keeps things consistent, and you can submit the same entry multiple times for each variant you have. 

You wouldn't have to fuss about whether subsequent releases classify as a "different games" - you only need to identify which "first release" they fall under. (Sorry Stadium Events / World Class Track Meet separatists - WCTM would be a check-box under Stadium Events, along with the combo carts (which could be recorded under "Super Mario. Bros" or "Duck Hunt" instead if the collector prefers).

There would still be problems with this approach, though (like the Indiana Jones NES titles being distinct entries with the same name), but this is how I would try to sort things, at least.

Hopefully this helps, @Code Monkey.

[T-Pac]

[Ankos | 442]

9 hours ago, Gloves said:

Same with the NES and famicom - with minor hardware adjustments, the software works exactly the same from one to the other, both ways around. Because they're the same platform, just with different hardware configurations. Whether they share the same library is irrelevant as that's a mix of what's popular in one region versus the other, paired with licensing - nobody is going to license Mahjong for a North American audience in the 80's, that's pointless from a monetary standpoint.

It looks like nowadays people figured out how to play Game Gear games on a Master System in addition to the other way around (which Sega released an official converter for). At some level it could be argued that the two are the same, but in a practical sense I don't think they are

Edited August 3, 2023 by Ankos
wrong link

[Gloves | 11,783]

7 minutes ago, Ankos said:

It looks like nowadays people figured out how to play Game Gear games on a Master System in addition to the other way around (which Sega released an official converter for). At some level it could be argued that the two are the same, but in a practical sense I don't think they are

I was only rebutting his arguments, but those aren't the only reason to say they're the same platform. Nintendo obviously brought the NES to the rest of the world as a version of the Famicom. Like you really have to intentionally put on blinders to not see clearly that they're intended to be the same platform, just built for different regions. FCGamer only even brings this argument up at any opportunity because he actively wants to sell the idea that the Famicom is its own thing because he's trolled his way so hard into weird corners with his arguments over the years about the NES being vastly inferior to the Famicom and such. 

He's basically an incredibly loud and biased extremist weeb troll. Actually engaging in a critical conversation with him is entirely futile because all he cares about is his 5D chess game to legitimize his massive junk cart collection.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

13 minutes ago, Ankos said:

It looks like nowadays people figured out how to play Game Gear games on a Master System in addition to the other way around (which Sega released an official converter for). At some level it could be argued that the two are the same, but in a practical sense I don't think they are

Arent they same architecture?

[Gloves | 11,783]

1 minute ago, MrWunderful said:

Arent they same architecture?

Honestly the first 30 seconds of the referenced video say plenty enough for me to say that yeah - they're basically the same thing, one just has a built-in screen to be portable. It's the Switch of the past, just lacking the tech of today. Like Tony Stark's dad, they were limited by their era.

[Ankos | 442]

5 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Arent they same architecture?

To my knowledge they are for the most part the same

[Ankos | 442]

16 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Honestly the first 30 seconds of the referenced video say plenty enough for me to say that yeah - they're basically the same thing, one just has a built-in screen to be portable. It's the Switch of the past, just lacking the tech of today. Like Tony Stark's dad, they were limited by their era.

They kinda are. But from a practical standpoint, less so since there has never been a commercially available way to play GG games on a SMS. I think of them as being different computers with the same operating system, though it sounds like you more of think of them more like different models of the same computer. The difference between the two interpretations does not seem that large to me tbh

[Gloves | 11,783]

10 minutes ago, Ankos said:

They kinda are. But from a practical standpoint, less so since there has never been a commercially available way to play GG games on a SMS. I think of them as being different computers with the same operating system, though it sounds like you more of think of them more like different models of the same computer. The difference between the two interpretations does not seem that large to me tbh

You're exactly right and it's why I'd say that the NES and Famicom are absolutely the same platform. I'm not saying they're immediately interchangeable, but to imply that they're worlds apart is ludicrous IMO. They're siblings, built from the same DNA. 

[fcgamer | 4,725]

11 minutes ago, Ankos said:

They kinda are. But from a practical standpoint, less so since there has never been a commercially available way to play GG games on a SMS. I think of them as being different computers with the same operating system, though it sounds like you more of think of them more like different models of the same computer. The difference between the two interpretations does not seem that large to me tbh

Also, Nintendo never released an official adaptor to run Famicom games on the NES. The internal adaptors used to build early NES releases such as Gyromite weren't meant to be used for playing other Famicom games on the NES. Pretty sure they didn't want people disassembling the games and importing those from other regions to run on their machines, furthermore those adaptors weren't being sold stand-alone at retail.

Game Gear and Sega Master System were already seen as being the same in the early nineties, when HTH released many Sega Master System games on Game Gear cartridges, allegedly with blessing / licensing from Sega themselves. 

[Gloves | 11,783]

1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

Also, Nintendo never released an official adaptor to run Famicom games on the NES.

Of course they didn't, it would likely be a breach of their licensing agreements at the time.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

45 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I was only rebutting his arguments, but those aren't the only reason to say they're the same platform. Nintendo obviously brought the NES to the rest of the world as a version of the Famicom. Like you really have to intentionally put on blinders to not see clearly that they're intended to be the same platform, just built for different regions. FCGamer only even brings this argument up at any opportunity because he actively wants to sell the idea that the Famicom is its own thing because he's trolled his way so hard into weird corners with his arguments over the years about the NES being vastly inferior to the Famicom and such. 

He's basically an incredibly loud and biased extremist weeb troll. Actually engaging in a critical conversation with him is entirely futile because all he cares about is his 5D chess game to legitimize his massive junk cart collection.

Hey man, it's incredible the amnesia people here have. Famicom and NES were viewed as the same machine all the way up until when, about mid 2000s when Nintendo Age came about? Before then, collectors and gamers saw them as the same. After that point it was always "OMG, make me a NES repro! Throw it in a repro blackbox and make it CIB even though its Samurai Pizza Cats that wasn't even from black box era! OMG take my f'ing money now!!!"

"Dude, I want to play XYZ game on Famicom, but it's only available on NES format. Can we make a repro?"

"OMG, you dirty, dirty man, that's piracy, why would you even think about that?!"

Yeah, let's do a quick ebay search and see the amount of repros going either direction there. 

[fcgamer | 4,725]

5 minutes ago, Gloves said:

You're exactly right and it's why I'd say that the NES and Famicom are absolutely the same platform. I'm not saying they're immediately interchangeable, but to imply that they're worlds apart is ludicrous IMO. They're siblings, built from the same DNA. 

Also it's curious when I showed pictures of Sachen Famicom games with retail stickers, the rebuttal was immediately, "But I'm not talking about Famicom, I mean NES..."

I mean, #samesystemandall

[fcgamer | 4,725]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

to legitimize his massive junk cart collection

Oh and just to address this, which part? The numerous prototypes I own? My licensed CIB J Sega Mega Drive Collection? My (more or less complete) licensed Famicom full set? My Asian PS collection? My Asian Xbox collection? My Wonderswan stuff? N64? Japanese Game Gear? The Hu Card stuff? The wii stuff? Not exactly sure what you are calling junk here, I guess you must be referring to the wii stuff, though Mario Galaxy was a fun game.