Decoupling the NES from the Famicom

[fcgamer | 4,753]

A while back someone had started a thread asking whether the NES and the Famicom were the same console or not. The major VGS consensus was yes, they were the same machine, albeit in different formats, yet this is a biased and uneducated consensus to be honest. I think it's time to acknowledge each machine as its own entity.

The NES had 677 (or something like that) games, with about 370 of them being North American exclusives.  The Famicom had just over 1050 games (excluding the disk system). So in reality, only about 1/3 of the Famicom's library is the same as that of the NES.

So when people make a comment about "Oh I can  barely find 100 NES games that are good", and the next guy remarks "Spartan X2!" its a serious OMGWTFBBQ situation for me.  NES had about 2/3 of the software count that the Famicom had (excluding FDS), and half of its library was exclusive to North America and sucked as well. 

Stop riding off the Famicom's coattails, dammit, the NES sucks and the Famicom kicks ass! Totally different things!

[MagusSmurf | 577]

Nobody's going to deny that lots of cool stuff got left behind in Japan but the way I remember this argument or a similar one going was that eventually people asked you to put up or shut up regarding your list of all the hundreds of supposedly great Famicom games nobody in the west knows about.

You didn't.

Without which, it's hard to see why this would be worth rehashing.

[Ankos | 463]

So you view them as two separate consoles that are cross compatible at the software level? That is kinda the situation with the Mega Duck and Gameboy (there is a bit of tinkering to switch a Mega Duck game to a Gameboy game, but they are mostly the same at the software level if I understand correctly). Would you extend this concept to things like SNES and SFC? Something I've thought about is if clone consoles could be viewed as their own thing, like how old gameboy clones were packed in with unlicensed games and sometimes multicart. In a sense they do have a set number of carts made specifically for them, they just happen to be able to play gameboy carts as well

Edited January 8, 2023 by Ankos
Meant to write and, not or

[Reed Rothchild | 9,584]

32 minutes ago, MagusSmurf said:

Nobody's going to deny that lots of cool stuff got left behind in Japan but the way I remember this argument or a similar one going was that eventually people asked you to put up or shut up regarding your list of all the hundreds of supposedly great Famicom games nobody in the west knows about.

You didn't.

Without which, it's hard to see why this would be worth rehashing.

When it comes to console libraries, it's best to just ignore Dave  

[ThePhleo | 2,185]

Sorry Dave, I've been working on marrying the 72-Pin / 60-Pin library.

If you can consider eastern European and south American 60-Pin garbage part of the Famicom set then I can consider the 72-Pin / 60-Pin libraries one and the same!

Plus we both know that Brazil and Sachen didn't care about pin counts, and the FamicomBox is a 72-pin system for Japan....not to mention the Famicom Disk doesn't even use Pins, and the PlayChoice-10 is its own thing all together.

Edited January 8, 2023 by ThePhleo

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Yeah but its not in english so it doesn’t count

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, Ankos said:

So you view them as two separate consoles that are cross compatible at the software level? That is kinda the situation with the Mega Duck and Gameboy (there is a bit of tinkering to switch a Mega Duck game to a Gameboy game, but they are mostly the same at the software level if I understand correctly). Would you extend this concept to things like SNES and SFC? Something I've thought about is if clone consoles could be viewed as their own thing, like how old gameboy clones were packed in with unlicensed games and sometimes multicart. In a sense they do have a set number of carts made specifically for them, they just happen to be able to play gameboy carts as well

I mean, they're probably 95% (if not higher) "cross compatible" at the hardware level as well.  The only real differences are the pin connectors, the Famicom-specific accessory port (and expansion port audio as a result), and the microphone in the second controller.  You could even make an argument about the accessory port, as the NES technically did have one on the bottom (albeit redesigned, like the rest of the system, and expansion port audio can be enabled via a very simple mod), it was just never utilized.

As for the SNES and SFC (at least those built for the same region, which the US SNES and Japanese SFC were), outside of literally the plastic, I don't think there are any differences between the consoles, so considering them totally different platforms would really be bonkers in my opinion.

Really, the systems are just the same ones rebranded for different regions, with localized libraries of software made available in those regions.  Saying the NES and Famicom are totally different machines would be like saying a US Commodore 64 and an EU Commodore 64 are different platforms simply because of the lack of availability of each library to one another.  That's just not the case.  I agree with the idea of keeping lists of each library separately, as many people in each region won't have ever experienced games released exclusively in another, and it's ridiculous to say "US exclusive game X" was released for Famicom and "Japan exclusive game Y" was released for the NES when very clearly they weren't, even if they will work on the same machines.

[Ankos | 463]

20 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

I mean, they're probably 95% (if not higher) "cross compatible" at the hardware level as well.  The only real differences are the pin connectors, the Famicom-specific accessory port (and expansion port audio as a result), and the microphone in the second controller.  You could even make an argument about the accessory port, as the NES technically did have one on the bottom (albeit redesigned, like the rest of the system, and expansion port audio can be enabled via a very simple mod), it was just never utilized.

As for the SNES and SFC (at least those built for the same region, which the US SNES and Japanese SFC were), outside of literally the plastic, I don't think there are any differences between the consoles, so considering them totally different platforms would really be bonkers in my opinion.

Really, the systems are just the same ones rebranded for different regions, with localized libraries of software made available in those regions.  Saying the NES and Famicom are totally different machines would be like saying a US Commodore 64 and an EU Commodore 64 are different platforms simply because of the lack of availability of each library to one another.  That's just not the case.  I agree with the idea of keeping lists of each library separately, as many people in each region won't have ever experienced games released exclusively in another, and it's ridiculous to say "US exclusive game X" was released for Famicom and "Japan exclusive game Y" was released for the NES when very clearly they weren't, even if they will work on the same machines.

So would you say the cutoff point for being different game systems is somewhere between mega duck to gameboy and nes to famicom? Because to my knowledge, the Mega Duck internals are very similar to gameboy clones from back in the day, and the machines are for the most part compatible on the software level (just with a couple of tweaks here and there)

[Gloves | 11,830]

The PS3 in North America and the PS3 in Japan are the same thing. A lot of games are available in one region but not the other.

The hardware between the NES and Famicom is the same (enough), and the software is the same core functionality. It's only the regions' tastes and thus the games which are considered valuable to one region vs the other which are different, and this holds true for basically every video game console across all of time.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

12 minutes ago, Ankos said:

So would you say the cutoff point for being different game systems is somewhere between mega duck to gameboy and nes to famicom? Because to my knowledge, the Mega Duck internals are very similar to gameboy clones from back in the day, and the machines are for the most part compatible on the software level (just with a couple of tweaks here and there)

I don't even know what a "Mega Duck" is, but if the hardware is actually distinctly different, they're different systems.  I don't subscribe to the NES and Famicom being stated as distinctly different because the NES is the exact same Famicom architecture with a couple of things deliberately excluded from its original region that technically were supported by the hardware.  People have shown again and again that with some basic modding, you can easily re-enable the expansion port audio, as well as make most (if not all) expansion port accessories compatible with the NES.  The only one I haven't heard of myself is someone getting a controller port 2 microphone working on an NES, but seeing as all the same chips are under the hood of both consoles, there's zero reason why you couldn't make it work.

A non-100%-perfect clone of a system doesn't make the clone the same system, even if it's compatible with the same software library.  I'm speaking of SOAC clones, which will operate nearly exactly like the original system, but which will always have some incompatibilities, seemingly no matter how hard the clone designers try.  I'm not familiar with the Mega Duck, but some quick Googling shows that it wasn't at all built with the exact same hardware as the Game Boy, nor by Nintendo, so those two would never be considered "the same" console, even if you can make one compatible with the other.  The NES and Famicom being the same machine comes from them literally being the same hardware platform, just rebranded and reskinned for a different region.

This conversation does make me wonder, though--if Nintendo SOAC designers can make 99% compatible full systems on one chip die, how is it that nobody has ever produced a working PPU clone, especially since it would be included in that design?  With all the interest these days in making totally accurate custom NES consoles out of new boards, cases, etc., it seems odd that nobody has taken parts of those existing clone designs and fabbed up a bunch of working PPUs (as well as CPUs, since they're technically slightly different from off the shelf parts).

[Code Monkey | 2,013]

I don't see how anyone can say these are the same console. They look different, they play different cartridges, they have different SKU, different internal hardware. What's even similar between them?

The NES 001 is different from the NES 101 is different from the SNES is different from the Famicom.

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,017]

I never really coupled them outsidr of playing ROMs since they fire up the same on the machine. If I were to collect and play Famicom games, I would do so on a Famicom.

I think the hidden gem movement drove people to dig past the NTSC releases more than they had when I first started collecting. Back then it was only the dankest Famicom games that even got mentioned. Now the library has been profiled well enough to expose playable games in every genre. 

[T-Pac | 7,587]

I used to be an advocate for always considering the NES and the Famicom to be unique, distinct systems. But I've since learned (thanks to several discussions here on VGS) that sometimes it's better to group them together based on the topic at hand.

In which case, I refer to the systems and games simply as...

There is no right answer for every scenario, but I still think it's best not to refer to Famicom games as NES games or vice-versa.

-CasualCart

[Gloves | 11,830]

16 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I don't see how anyone can say these are the same console. They look different, they play different cartridges, they have different SKU, different internal hardware. What's even similar between them?

The NES 001 is different from the NES 101 is different from the SNES is different from the Famicom.

It's broader than a simple NES 001 !== NES 101, we're all bundling the entire generation. OF COURSE if you get nitty-gritty the NES !== SNES !== Famicom !== PS5 !== Commodore etc.. My NES and YOUR NES are different consoles obviously. 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, Code Monkey said:

I don't see how anyone can say these are the same console. They look different, they play different cartridges, they have different SKU, different internal hardware. What's even similar between them?

The NES 001 is different from the NES 101 is different from the SNES is different from the Famicom.

If you put an adapter on an NES game, a Famicom will play it, and vice versa.  No additional components added or removed, no filtering, just an adapter which routes the pins appropriately from the media source to the system.  So no, realistically, they don't play different cartridges, not at the most basic level.  The NES/Famicom and, say, the Odyssey 2 absolutely do, but the NES and Famicom play two regional variants of the exact same thing.

Different skus?  Seriously?  Oh crap, I guess the Destiny PS4 and God of War PS4 aren't both PS4s because the sku is different. 

Different internal hardware?  I'll give you the difference in the PCBs and a couple of the regional variations (different expansion ports in both, expansion audio not connected by default in an NES, no default mic in controller #2 on the NES), but the actual system hardware is identical.  If it's not, how was Analogue harvesting the chips from junked Famicom systems to make the NT, whose primary function was to play NES cartridges?  Yes, it plays both NES and Famicom carts, but every time it was advertised (to this day in placed like Wikipedia), NES is referenced first, indicating the primary target for the system.

The NES is just a repackaged Famicom specifically intended to look akin to a VCR in order to fly under the radar of folks in the US who were more than a little gun shy after the video game meltdown a couple of years prior.  In the case of the Super NES and Super Famicom, they're literally the same machines under the hood.  There are differences between one console and another, but they're basically superficial between the NES and Famicom and entirely superficial between the SNES and SFC.

1 hour ago, CasualCart said:

There is no right answer for every scenario, but I still think it's best not to refer to Famicom games as NES games or vice-versa.

-CasualCart

Bingo.  People who understand the systems know they're basically the exact same hardware in a different package and can play the same games, but knowing what type of game someone is referring to will immediately tell you what you're getting into as far as being able to play it or not.  Before I got my AVS, I'd be hard pressed to play any Famicom games without either purchasing an adapter or pulling apart a Gyromite cart, so if you asked me if I wanted to play one, I'd know to politely decline.

Edited January 8, 2023 by darkchylde28

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

Double post.

Edited January 8, 2023 by darkchylde28

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

I view it the way gamefaqs views it: the NES/Famicom is one giant library.  The physical hardware is different, yes, but the chipsets and the programming to make the games run is identical.  It's easy enough to classify a game as 60 pin or 72 pin if you really want to make that "Console" distinction, but again, that's a superficial difference to me, as the software library is universal...

[Tanooki | 4,952]

Ok look I see from this point, this post went live like 7-8hours ago and ignored the responses so far to do this so if it's in disagreement or a re-run, that's why.

I gave it a thanks, nothing better fit.  Maybe it's as long as I've been at it, combined with some other factors too, but I do agree, they are different systems, yet its offspring SNES/SFC I would never say the same.

Sure they share the same architecture, but, they also most definitely do not as well.  I've been exposed to the Japanese side of the Nintendo(NES) world since 1995/96 because I was in the ground floor of emulation, pre-iNES format, Pasofami if anyone recalls that?  Long ago I was deep into that community, used to work on making a few Pasofami rom sets work in it, then I'm the one who wrote the documentation still in use for the NES header format, did plenty of deeper sketchier stuff under another name then, even worked with a Taiwanese buddy as his helper and tester breaking the FDS barrier and having FWNES hit(FanwenNES) that made that reality.  I had to educate, self educate, and investigate this stuff before it got hipster hot shit cool in the last 10-15+ years.

I realize what the NES is, it's a chopped and changed Famicom, it's unique, but it is not.  Much like how you can play gymnastics with NeoGeo, AES and MVS, seen as different but not also because of the difference in the pinouts to restrict a market.  Nintendo though didn't just do this, they went much further.  Where SNK stopped at just cock blocking arcade vendors from saving a bundle on AES wares, Nintendo went deep.  It started as a Family Computer, basic language, keyboard, disc drive, early BBS style in-country internet(intranet?) services.  This system had the pin difference yet more.  It was made to work with more expansions from small chips adding more capabilities, to adding full on devices that added more memory, more audio channels, more...more to do really.  The NES didn't do this, it was strictly really a gaming device limited to what could be jammed on a PCB in cart, and had a distinct library quite different than Japan.  Some game overlap most definitely, but where it didn't, well defines more reasons why they're not the same more than they are.  Maybe had the feel of today's world been there 40 years ago, one could argue better about why stuff wasn't localized or why devices or services didn't happen, but we're not doing alt-history, the south didn't win the civil war, nor did Japan successfully take Pearl Harbor in 1941.

I get why they're seen as one big library - convenience.  It's easier, and the US created and still dominates aspects of the internet on whole, not Japan.  To the winner goes the trend of history, even if it's not quite right, because that's who gets the spoils.

Even now I'm admittedly a bit lazy/guilty of the jumble, we know here who know me over the years I've kept an archive of my inventory for decades, the NES/FC get lumped into one page of HTML, though I do isolate by system.

[ThePhleo | 2,185]

4 hours ago, CasualCart said:

I used to be an advocate for always considering the NES and the Famicom to be unique, distinct systems. But I've since learned (thanks to several discussions here on VGS) that sometimes it's better to group them together based on the topic at hand.

In which case, I refer to the systems and games simply as...

There is no right answer for every scenario, but I still think it's best not to refer to Famicom games as NES games or vice-versa.

-CasualCart

Woooooooooooo!

I've been calling it this in private for years now. Thank you for this.

In reality, I've been calling it "Nintendo 8-Bit Family" because we have...

• Famicom
• Famicom Disk System
• FamicomBox
• Nintendo Entertainment System
• PlayChoice-10
• Samurai
• Hyundai Comboy

And all the bootlegs, namely popular ones like Dendy, Phantom, MicroGenius, Q-Boy, etc.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

With just a single adaptor we can play SNES and NES and on the n64, does that make them all the same machine?

[a3quit4s | 4,125]

4 hours ago, CasualCart said:

I used to be an advocate for always considering the NES and the Famicom to be unique, distinct systems. But I've since learned (thanks to several discussions here on VGS) that sometimes it's better to group them together based on the topic at hand.

In which case, I refer to the systems and games simply as...

There is no right answer for every scenario, but I still think it's best not to refer to Famicom games as NES games or vice-versa.

-CasualCart

Permission to use this as my avatar?

[ThePhleo | 2,185]

4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

With just a single adaptor we can play SNES and NES and on the n64, does that make them all the same machine?

More than half the licensed 72-Pin NES library is available as 60-Pin....

There's no special hardware being used in a pin converter...some 72-Pin games have blank pins, and the earliest games even use famicom converters.

Not to mention the 72-Pin/60-Pin games available as FDS games.

Edited January 9, 2023 by ThePhleo

[fcgamer | 4,753]

2 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

More than half the licensed 72-Pin NES library is available as 60-Pin....

There's no special hardware being used in a pin converter...some 72-Pin games have blank pins, and the earliest games even use famicom converters.

Not to mention the 72-Pin/60-Pin games available as FDS games.

The games available on the disk system versus the NES certainly do not count, as there are actually differences in code. Similarly, the Famicom Disk System is its own thing, and almost everyone I know views it as such.

Tanooki somewhat nails it in terms of how I feel on the issue. The NES is just an entertainment system (they even say so themselves), whereas the Famicom was so much more, with a software library to reflect that (karaoke, space school, software development, network device, custom bike / advertising, etc...the list goes on and on). 

It's not as though the NES is just Famicom Lite, as the software libraries don't even match up very well. Of the shared part of the library, many NES games aren't available on the Famicom (Metroid, Kid Icarus), and furthermore, a large portion of the NES games aren't available on the Famicom in any format aside from illegal unauthorized releases.

[Ankos | 463]

6 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

I don't even know what a "Mega Duck" is

It is Taiwanese handheld game system. It wasn't super successful so documentation is a bit poor, but from what I've heard it is supposed to be built very similarly to a SY-3000B gameboy clone (a very early clone). At the software level its games are very close to gameboy games but not 100% 1:1. In fact all but one of the games confirmed to have been released for it were re-released for gameboy as unlicensed titles

[ThePhleo | 2,185]

If the FDS is its own system then so is the Konami Q-Ta, Datach, Karaeoke Studio, Nanttettate Baseball games, and the Aladdin Deck Enhancer.

They're just things that add functionality to the Famicom/NES. They're no different than glorified MMC chips.