Decoupling the NES from the Famicom

[phart010 | 1,708]

3 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

It's definitely not the one that Brian "made" though. He claimed his was near perfect, but he forgot to fix the graphics that kaiser changed, and the rest of the inaccurate parts remained too ..oops 

I wonder if anyone was able to extract the SMB2 rom from the new little Super Mario Game and watch handhelds. I would think Nintendo would have just made an NES emulator and ported the FDS game over rather than making two emulators..? 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

Of course it'd need a port, Super Chinese 2 is in Japanese, and is text-heavy.

Super Chinese 2 is Little Ninja Bros on the NES, so a "port" already exists.

As for blowing into the microphone on a Famicom cart, your NES can already do that, you just have to unlock the ability, kind of like how you have to unlock the ability for your NES to play extra Famicom sound chips or make an AV Famicom use a US zapper... it's just another example of a hardware limitation, no issue with the software at all...

[Gloves | 11,830]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Super Chinese 2 is Little Ninja Bros on the NES, so a "port" already exists.

As for blowing into the microphone on a Famicom cart, your NES can already do that, you just have to unlock the ability, kind of like how you have to unlock the ability for your NES to play extra Famicom sound chips or make an AV Famicom use a US zapper... it's just another example of a hardware limitation, no issue with the software at all...

Oh yeaaaahhhh. I was thinking it was the other way around, but the first didn't come here, is that right?

EDIT: Oh nvm that was Kung Fu Heroes. Derp.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

I think it's likely a bit more complicated than you're making it out to be. Otherwise why were we initially given "half" versions of SMB2J? Furthermore, as you recall Brian just stole Kaisers version of the game to make his own, if it were as easy as you suggested, then he would have just did it himself, and made a perfect port.

That's probably more due to the original lack of knowledge and know-how than the actual amount of code that has to be changed, so my point still stands on just how close the FDS and Famicom actually are.

As for my bootleg FDS carts, I got most of mine from aliexpress, and my only real issue is that they lack the save function, but otherwise they seem to be the same.

As for the made in Taiwan comment,  Taiwan's real name is The Replubic of China, as you know, so don't try to correct me on that when what I've written is already technically correct...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

2 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Oh yeaaaahhhh. I was thinking it was the other way around, but the first didn't come here, is that right?

The first Super Chinese is Kung Fu Heroes.  The only one we didn't get is Super Chinese 3...

[Gloves | 11,830]

Just now, Dr. Morbis said:

The first Super Chinese is Kung Fu Heroes.  The only one we didn't get is Super Chinese 3...

Got it. Heh.

[Tanooki | 4,952]

4 hours ago, fcgamer said:

With just a single adaptor we can play SNES and NES and on the n64, does that make them all the same machine?

Tristar 64 would shake the magic 8 ball and point out 'all signs point to yes'   Therefore it must be true.

Going to agree from experience that the FDS is its own thing, so fcgamer got that one right, much like how people view the SegaCD as it's own system and same with the Turbo/PCE CD, it may be co-dependent, but it's its own hardware and software library that stands alone.

 

@CasualCart Yeah...ehh no... the idea of the 8bit library was console, but you did accidentally or not bring up a legit problem that even Nintendo caused in its own product coding.  Game Boy, Game Boy Color?  For some dumb as dirt reason the black carts are DMG releases, only the see through are CGB titles, yet the labels, the manuals, the boxes all are branded with the shiny or not side art and other naming stake on paper as Game Boy Color.  As far as NOA stupidly is concerned the GBC has like a 100 games or whatever and not 400 (whatever the real totals are) because only one counts, code wise, packing is another matter.  It's just weird.

 

Republic of China nothing, don't be a CCP bootlicker, even if jest.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

That's probably more due to the original lack of knowledge and know-how than the actual amount of code that has to be changed, so my point still stands on just how close the FDS and Famicom actually are.

As for my bootleg FDS carts, I got most of mine from aliexpress, and my only real issue is that they lack the save function, but otherwise they seem to be the same.

As for the made in Taiwan comment,  Taiwan's real name is The Replubic of China, as you know, so don't try to correct me on that when what I've written is already technically correct...

Well @Ankos comment is valid then too, about Mega Duck vs Game Boy. You can't really have it both ways...

If you got your carts off AliExpress who knows what's actually on there and where it came from. You need to video the piranhas for us to know more accurately just how accurate your port is 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

10 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Well @Ankos comment is valid then too, about Mega Duck vs Game Boy. You can't really have it both ways...

I know nothing about Game Boy, but I already stated that I agree with you that the FDS is technically a different console than the Famicom.  In my eyes, though, the FDS and Famicom are about as closely related as two "different consoles" can possibly be...

Edited January 9, 2023 by Dr. Morbis

[fcgamer | 4,753]

These are more accurate disk to cart conversions, but you need added hardware, even have to "flip" the game.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

In my eyes, though, the FDS and Famicom are about as closely related as two "different consoles" can possibly be..

That VT03 onebus stuff, Famiclones, where would they fall?

[fcgamer | 4,753]

Oh and plug n plays, should count them the same as NES or Famicom? So many based on that architecture, could be modified to run on a machine...

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

4 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Also, the guys that made the carts were Taiwanese, not Chinese. Let's get the story correct.

Technically the Taiwanese are Chinese.  I'm sure being there you'd understand their history and the current political situation, but to say they're separate goes against what they themselves believe.

 

4 hours ago, Gloves said:

Of course it'd need a port, Super Chinese 2 is in Japanese, and is text-heavy.

Famicom to NES isn't porting, it's localizing.  You don't need to translate the game to play it on the hardware.  You need to do that so the local audience can play it.  A port is to make it play on completely different hardware than the game was originally intended to run on, and typically needs to be re-optimized for the new console.  It's why 1:1 FDS ports are practically nonexistent in cartridge format. 

2 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Republic of China nothing, don't be a CCP bootlicker, even if jest.

Dude, that's Taiwan's actual name. It's what they call themselves.  In fact, much like the PRC lays claim to Taiwan, Taiwan lays claim to China for exactly the same reason.  There's a ton of pertinent info floating around the internet, I suggest checking some of it out.  History is fun

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

That VT03 onebus stuff, Famiclones, where would they fall?

Famiclones typically aren't the same internals.  It's why some games simply refuse to run on them.  They're a cool bootleg product, but that's what they are - bootlegs.  If anything, they're just their own thing entirely.  They'd be closer to emulators than anything, as they are designed to emulate the real thing rather than to be a 1:1 copy.

[Sumez | 2,994]

16 hours ago, fcgamer said:

The major VGS consensus was yes, they were the same machine, albeit in different formats, yet this is a biased and uneducated consensus to be honest. I think it's time to acknowledge each machine as its own entity.

Such an absolute troll statement. 

The 100% only reason anyone would ever consider those two "separate platforms" is the name and the name alone. 

They are 100% the same machine packed in a different branding, something that might make a difference for the type of collectors who never plays their games, and I do understand that. But that difference is completely irrelevant when talking about the actual games. 

With the same logic, a Japanese gamecube is a different platform from a US gamecube, and a EU Snes is different from a US one. It's dumb and serves no purpose, it's why we have the concept of regions in the first place, outside of platforms. 

The nes/Famicom is probably my favourite console platform of all time, and telling me some games "don't count" because they were only released in one region is borderline offensive. 

[Sumez | 2,994]

6 hours ago, phart010 said:

NES and Famicom don’t have the same exact hardware though. For example, Famicom controller 2 has a built in microphone. As a result, many games used its functionality… even Zelda! And the extra sound channel while still present in NES, it is not enabled. You have to modify the hardware to enable it.

I can't imagine it'd take more than bridging a single connection from the controller port to connect a controller with a microphone to P2 on an NES and use it in the Japanese Zelda, but I've never heard of anyone doing it, as it has little practical purpose

And you don't need hardware modifications to use the expansion audio on a front loader NES - it's even exposed in the expansion port on the bottom. The top loader doesn't have it though, but it's a very simple hardware mixer that doesn't use any ICs, so I'm not sure I'd consider that "part of the hardware" anyway

But it's really best to not really consider tiny differences like that at all. Most other pre-ps2 consoles have way bigger hardware differences between regions than the jp and us fc/nes do, and the European nes especially is way more different, as are two different revisions of the same console in the same region - including the nes. So if you want to consider even tiny alterations a "different platform" then every individual SKU would be its own platform

I can see the argument when differences allow different games to be played, but we'd need to be talking entirely different game libraries for that to really make any sense

Edited January 9, 2023 by Sumez

[Sumez | 2,994]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Oh and plug n plays, should count them the same as NES or Famicom? So many based on that architecture, could be modified to run on a machine...

The games on them are obviously NES games. What you call the systems really doesn't matter. 

[fcgamer | 4,753]

21 minutes ago, Sumez said:

The games on them are obviously NES games. What you call the systems really doesn't matter. 

I was talking about the new ones coming out such as the Atari one, the gambling games, I think there is some Disney stuff, etc. They (could) play on a nes or Famicom, with tons of modification (they work on emulators and are 8 bit Nintendo roms format), but I don't think anyone would call these nes games or include them on any set lists...

[fcgamer | 4,753]

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Famiclones typically aren't the same internals.  It's why some games simply refuse to run on them.  They're a cool bootleg product, but that's what they are - bootlegs.  If anything, they're just their own thing entirely.  They'd be closer to emulators than anything, as they are designed to emulate the real thing rather than to be a 1:1 copy.

A few points:

1. Sharp 's Twin Famicom could be considered a Famiclone; similarly, anything made after the parents expired were birthed as legal products. No one would refer to the AVS as a bootleg, yet there's nothing inherently different between it or any of the others.

Early Famiclones will run basically all of the games no issue, the only ones that start having issues is when we get to modern noac style clones. This brings us to...

2. NOAC clones should be seen as their own thing, as these are the machines that have games that wont run on regular Famicoms or old Famiclones, such as the 118 in 1 multicart I have. So we have games that can only run on these clones, it's an entirely new machine that is somewhat compatible with Famicom or NES.

Onebus takes this concept a step even further.

 

[fcgamer | 4,753]

1 hour ago, Sumez said:

The nes/Famicom is probably my favourite console platform of all time, and telling me some games "don't count" because they were only released in one region is borderline offensive. 

I feel that it's somewhat offensive when people try to shove 350+ turds into the Famicom's library, while stealing out gems and throwing the word "NES" afterwards. No, Spartan X2 or Recca aren't anyone's favorite NES games, they were never released on the NES, though Spartan almost made it.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Technically the Taiwanese are Chinese.  I'm sure being there you'd understand their history and the current political situation, but to say they're separate goes against what they themselves believe.

 

Famicom to NES isn't porting, it's localizing.  You don't need to translate the game to play it on the hardware.  You need to do that so the local audience can play it.  A port is to make it play on completely different hardware than the game was originally intended to run on, and typically needs to be re-optimized for the new console.  It's why 1:1 FDS ports are practically nonexistent in cartridge format. 

Dude, that's Taiwan's actual name. It's what they call themselves.  In fact, much like the PRC lays claim to Taiwan, Taiwan lays claim to China for exactly the same reason.  There's a ton of pertinent info floating around the internet, I suggest checking some of it out.  History is fun

It's much much more complicated. Primarily only the older population might still identify as Chinese, though ethnically a large percentage of the population here is Chinese; but for younger generations, most identify as Taiwanese, just as Americans or Canadians might identify as that rather than as Polish or German or whatever their heritage is.

By now generally the ROC usage is a KMT preferred thing, and it's been causing a lot of troubles in the global political sphere. Even the passport the word Taiwan (in English) is much larger than the Republic of China text.

Also there's a lot of aboriginal people here. 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

33 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

A few points:

1. Sharp 's Twin Famicom could be considered a Famiclone; similarly, anything made after the parents expired were birthed as legal products. No one would refer to the AVS as a bootleg, yet there's nothing inherently different between it or any of the others.

Early Famiclones will run basically all of the games no issue, the only ones that start having issues is when we get to modern noac style clones. This brings us to...

2. NOAC clones should be seen as their own thing, as these are the machines that have games that wont run on regular Famicoms or old Famiclones, such as the 118 in 1 multicart I have. So we have games that can only run on these clones, it's an entirely new machine that is somewhat compatible with Famicom or NES.

Onebus takes this concept a step even further.

 

Actually, the AVS is a bootleg.  As is the Retron and any other console designed to play games for an existing system.  Regardless of the legality of their creation and/or existence, they are still not an authentic unit, and while the architecture is similar, it's not exact.  They emulate the OG hardware, regardless of whether it's at the hardware or software level.

NOAC clones also fall into that category - they emulate the NES architecture.  The fact that they have games made for them that won't play on the Famicom/NES would actually show they are intended to be completely different, offering what would now be considered "backward compatibility," which is basically when a new console can emulate the architecture of a previous one in order to play existing games.  Whether it's done above board or not is irrelevant to that status.

 

[PekoponTAS | 171]

I don't have much of an opinion on the matter, as I don't care about the Famicom library. It's not like I had one growing up.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

37 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

NOAC clones also fall into that category - they emulate the NES architecture.  The fact that they have games made for them that won't play on the Famicom/NES would actually show they are intended to be completely different, offering what would now be considered "backward compatibility," which is basically when a new console can emulate the architecture of a previous one in order to play existing games.  Whether it's done above board or not is irrelevant to that status.

 

Yes, that's my point. These with new games that will only run on them should be considered their own type of gaming console.

[Gaia Gensouki | 1,079]

Personally, I prefer to keep things simple and see no need to reinvent the wheel. The NES and Famicom are the same consoles with only some minor and mostly superficial differences. The FDS may be it's own thing hardware-wise, but I would still consider it to be part of the NES/Famicom library. Some of those games even amde its way to real famicom or NES cartridges.

If you wanted to differentiate every single hardware alteration as its own thing, then you're in for a bad time, since hardware makers always make some slight or big alterations to their original designs either because original parts are no longer being manufactured or because they can slim down their consoles or reduce procution costs if they use similar parts. Just look at the many hardware revisions of the Genesis/Mega Drive: https://segaretro.org/Sega_Mega_Drive/Hardware_revisions

It was a bit of a hassle for me since I bought my first Mega Drive console last year and wanted an older model 1, because of the better sound chip. So would the later model 1 units be entirely different console, just because parts of their internals are different?

You could even continue this with hardware revisions from later consoles such as PS2 or PS4. The PS2 had many hardware revisions and the PS4 quite a few as well, even with the base PS4 models.

Therefore separating the NES and Famicom libraries seems like mere sophistry to me with no real actual value. And I say this as someone who collects Famicom and FDS games myself, among other Japanese imports such as the SFC (which btw. looks exactly like our European model of the SNES). So it's not like I don't care, but rather think that the differences aren't huge enough to make up a completely different system.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Gaia Gensouki