Decoupling the NES from the Famicom

[fcgamer | 4,753]

2 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

If the FDS is its own system then so is the Konami Q-Ta, Datach, Karaeoke Studio, Nanttettate Baseball games, and the Aladdin Deck Enhancer.

They're just things that add functionality to the Famicom/NES. They're no different than glorified MMC chips.

No, gotta strongly disagree here. The disk system (they call it a system) is like the Sega CD or something. It's not considered part of the Famicom, rather its own thing.

Edit: the other things you mentioned are very much considered part of the library though.

Edited January 9, 2023 by fcgamer

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

31 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

It's not as though the NES is just Famicom Lite, as the software libraries don't even match up very well. Of the shared part of the library, many NES games aren't available on the Famicom (Metroid, Kid Icarus), and furthermore, a large portion of the NES games aren't available on the Famicom in any format aside from illegal unauthorized releases.

Different games being available in different regions makes it a different console?!?   Wow... thanks for enlightening me!  I'm going to head to all the major gaming sites and let them know right away that they have to reclassify their entire game lists for every generation!!!!

Oh, wait, I don't have to do that because - once again - you are unequivically and categorically wrong...

PS - don't forget to tell all those NES homebrew authors out there to completely rewrite their programming from the ground up for the entirely different console architecture of their Famicom releases...  Oh wait...

Edited January 9, 2023 by Dr. Morbis

[ThePhleo | 2,185]

A name change makes it a unique console all together? I can't agree with that at all.

by that standard, something like the Panasonic Q is the only game platform without ANY GAMES ever released for it, or Mega Drive games are not Sega Genesis games.

Here's a preliminary look into my NES / FC Marriage...I still need to merge the FDS games that have 60/72 pin releases and tell me if you still disagree.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lqqe943nmzbms8av8s9rd/FC-FDS-NES-Marriage.xls?dl=0&rlkey=93yzyqlmiy0cnq0r0m9jkdsbq

Edited January 9, 2023 by ThePhleo

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

9 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

No, gotta strongly disagree here. The disk system (they call it a system) is like the Sega CD or something. It's not considered part of the Famicom, rather its own thing.

Edit: the other things you mentioned are very much considered part of the library though.

Agreed.  The games for the FDS are completely separate.  Even games like Metroid that were released on cartridge in the US aren't identical, they're ports of the FDS game.  The code won't run without either the FDS or a complete rewrite.  Definitely not the same console.  That said, if you plug the chips from a Famicom cart into an equivalent NES board, they will run perfectly fine.  Same system, just a different region.  Physical redesign notwithstanding, the internals are functionally the same.  

[fcgamer | 4,753]

5 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

A name change makes it a unique console all together? I can't agree with that at all.

by that standard, something like the Panasonic Q is the only game platform without ANY GAMES ever released for it, or Mega Drive games are not Sega Genesis games.

Here's a preliminary look into my NES / FC Marriage...I still need to merge the FDS games that have 60/72 pin releases and tell me if you still disagree.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lqqe943nmzbms8av8s9rd/FC-FDS-NES-Marriage.xls?dl=0&rlkey=93yzyqlmiy0cnq0r0m9jkdsbq

Not happening buddy. You'd have a stronger case if you removed the disk system though, as no one considers it the same thing.

[ThePhleo | 2,185]

32 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Not happening buddy. You'd have a stronger case if you removed the disk system though, as no one considers it the same thing.

So for personal reasons just ignore FDS. FC & NES only.

Different shaped media doesn't mean different platform when the only thing stopping them from playing is a simple cartridge slot with no additional processing.

If that were the case, then how do you reconcile 5.25" / 3.5" / CD / DVD PC games? Or, even Licensed/Unlicensed games....or you're the famicom KING and literally every game is a different size shape and color made by different manufacturers.

Konami games are NOT Famicom games, they're Konami plastics that happen to make funny pictures on your screen when you put it in a conveniently shaped famicom computer box.

Edited January 9, 2023 by ThePhleo

[T-Pac | 7,588]

1 hour ago, ThePhleo said:

Woooooooooooo!

I've been calling it this in private for years now. Thank you for this.

In reality, I've been calling it "Nintendo 8-Bit Family" because we have...

• Famicom
• Famicom Disk System
• FamicomBox
• Nintendo Entertainment System
• PlayChoice-10
• Samurai
• Hyundai Comboy

And all the bootlegs, namely popular ones like Dendy, Phantom, MicroGenius, Q-Boy, etc.

It's a convenient way to categorize the libraries for sure - the only murky bit is that the Game Boy would also technically fall under the "Nintendo 8-Bit Family". But no sorting-scheme is perfect, I guess.

-CasualCart

1 hour ago, a3quit4s said:

Permission to use this as my avatar?

Haha everything I post is fair-game for avatars.

-CasualCart

[a3quit4s | 4,126]

8 minutes ago, CasualCart said:

It's a convenient way to categorize the libraries for sure - the only murky bit is that the Game Boy would also technically fall under the "Nintendo 8-Bit Family". But no sorting-scheme is perfect, I guess.

-CasualCart

Haha everything I post is fair-game for avatars.

-CasualCart

[phart010 | 1,708]

4 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

If you put an adapter on an NES game, a Famicom will play it, and vice versa.  No additional components added or removed, no filtering, just an adapter which routes the pins appropriately from the media source to the system.  So no, realistically, they don't play different cartridges, not at the most basic level. 

Oh ho ho ho… Time to play devils advocate.

What about Genesis games and Master System  games? Are the two systems the same? You can play Master system games on Genesis with the Power Base Converter, which is a mere pin converter (no additional hardware add-ons).

Or what about Game Gear and Master system? Are they the same system? After all, Master Gear enables MS games to be played on the Game Gear and again it’s a pin converter…

What about Sega SG-1000, SG-3000 and Mark III (Master System)? They offer cross compatibility… Are they the same system?

What about SuperGrafx? It still plays the PC-Engine library… is it the same system as PC-Engine??

This debate is about to get philosophical  

[phart010 | 1,708]

My opinion on this topic is regardless of the hardware compatibility, what you have to consider is the intent of the manufacturer. They intentionally marketed these as different products for different markets. Even though the hardware is often easily modified to bypass the region locking, the manufacturer deliberately added in the region locking because they intended for these systems to be viewed as different systems across different regions. There is a multitude of different reasons why.

But at the end of the day, they could have made region locking even harder to bypass if they wanted to (or even impossible if they really wanted to! )

[fcgamer | 4,753]

15 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Oh ho ho ho… Time to play devils advocate.

What about Genesis games and Master System  games? Are the two systems the same? You can play Master system games on Genesis with the Power Base Converter, which is a mere pin converter (no additional hardware add-ons).

Or what about Game Gear and Master system? Are they the same system? After all, Master Gear enables MS games to be played on the Game Gear and again it’s a pin converter…

What about Sega SG-1000, SG-3000 and Mark III (Master System)? They offer cross compatibility… Are they the same system?

What about SuperGrafx? It still plays the PC-Engine library… is it the same system as PC-Engine??

This debate is about to get philosophical  

Taiwanese company HTH released a whole series of Sega Master System games on Game Gear pcbs for Game Gear use; furthermore, I've heard they actually were licensed by Sega so they could do this legally.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

With just a single adaptor we can play SNES and NES and on the n64, does that make them all the same machine?

Except there aren't any simple pass-through adapters for the N64 that allow it to just accept those games, at least not that I've been able to find documented anywhere.  The Tristar64 is the only thing I've been able to come up with that does the sort of thing you're suggesting, and it's got SOAC guts inside and is basically the console itself.

Nice try with the straw man argument, though.  I pointed out that the two are the same because they literally have the same hardware inside, not because they play the same games.

1 hour ago, ThePhleo said:

More than half the licensed 72-Pin NES library is available as 60-Pin....

There's no special hardware being used in a pin converter...some 72-Pin games have blank pins, and the earliest games even use famicom converters.

Not to mention the 72-Pin/60-Pin games available as FDS games.

Bingo, the pass through adapters are passive, and simply route one set of pins to their appropriate mates in the other system (or in the case of the SFC to SNES pass through adapters, just make room for the stupid studs sticking out of the SNES that prevent SFC game insertion).

2 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Oh ho ho ho… Time to play devils advocate.

What about Genesis games and Master System  games? Are the two systems the same? You can play Master system games on Genesis with the Power Base Converter, which is a mere pin converter (no additional hardware add-ons).

Or what about Game Gear and Master system? Are they the same system? After all, Master Gear enables MS games to be played on the Game Gear and again it’s a pin converter…

What about Sega SG-1000, SG-3000 and Mark III (Master System)? They offer cross compatibility… Are they the same system?

What about SuperGrafx? It still plays the PC-Engine library… is it the same system as PC-Engine??

This debate is about to get philosophical  

If they have the exact same hardware inside, they're the same system.  You're trying to play devil's advocate, but really creating a straw man argument, as I specifically stated that the systems I was calling the same were internally identical, or nearly so in the case of the NES vs Famicom (and I've pointed out the minor differences between them).

It's convenient that there's some backwards compatibility with Sega systems, but if all of those systems are as inter-compatible as you're trying to make out, you could play Genesis and SMS games on the SG-1000...except you can't.  Each successive system has added more and more hardware, making them distinctly different in design and function, even if the more basic functionality of previous systems was maintained.

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

No, gotta strongly disagree here. The disk system (they call it a system) is like the Sega CD or something. It's not considered part of the Famicom, rather its own thing.

Edit: the other things you mentioned are very much considered part of the library though.

Except they're not totally their own things.  Sure, I can accept that stuff like Sega CD and the FDS (disks only, games that got cart releases don't count, even if they originated on the disks) as being sort of their own things, but they're also subsets of the system that they're designed for.  They're games that require a specific accessory for a specific system, so you can classify them a bit differently, but separating them from the console completely is ridiculous since they simply cannot be played without said system.  If you look at things like games that require the Power Pad, you could even argue against stuff like Sega CD and FDS being considered separate, since Short Order/Egg-Splode, etc. aren't considered separate from the NES library, and yet they're totally unable to be played without a specific, unique accessory for the NES.

And you can cite every random add-on for the Famicom that you like, but it doesn't make the hardware inside of the console different than that within the NES beyond the couple of regional differences Nintendo deliberately made (and which can be re-added with minor modification to basically re-enable them), and thus not a different system.  Stick your head in the sand all you like, beat your head against whatever wall it is that apparently makes you feel special, but you're just flat out wrong here, and the hardware proves it.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

10 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Except there aren't any simple pass-through adapters for the N64 that allow it to just accept those games, at least not that I've been able to find documented anywhere.  The Tristar64 is the only thing I've been able to come up with that does the sort of thing you're suggesting, and it's got SOAC guts inside and is basically the console itself.

Nice try with the straw man argument, though.  I pointed out that the two are the same because they literally have the same hardware inside, not because they play the same games.

Bingo, the pass through adapters are passive, and simply route one set of pins to their appropriate mates in the other system (or in the case of the SFC to SNES pass through adapters, just make room for the stupid studs sticking out of the SNES that prevent SFC game insertion).

If they have the exact same hardware inside, they're the same system.  You're trying to play devil's advocate, but really creating a straw man argument, as I specifically stated that the systems I was calling the same were internally identical, or nearly so in the case of the NES vs Famicom (and I've pointed out the minor differences between them).

It's convenient that there's some backwards compatibility with Sega systems, but if all of those systems are as inter-compatible as you're trying to make out, you could play Genesis and SMS games on the SG-1000...except you can't.  Each successive system has added more and more hardware, making them distinctly different in design and function, even if the more basic functionality of previous systems was maintained.

Except they're not totally their own things.  Sure, I can accept that stuff like Sega CD and the FDS (disks only, games that got cart releases don't count, even if they originated on the disks) as being sort of their own things, but they're also subsets of the system that they're designed for.  They're games that require a specific accessory for a specific system, so you can classify them a bit differently, but separating them from the console completely is ridiculous since they simply cannot be played without said system.  If you look at things like games that require the Power Pad, you could even argue against stuff like Sega CD and FDS being considered separate, since Short Order/Egg-Splode, etc. aren't considered separate from the NES library, and yet they're totally unable to be played without a specific, unique accessory for the NES.

And you can cite every random add-on for the Famicom that you like, but it doesn't make the hardware inside of the console different than that within the NES beyond the couple of regional differences Nintendo deliberately made (and which can be re-added with minor modification to basically re-enable them), and thus not a different system.  Stick your head in the sand all you like, beat your head against whatever wall it is that apparently makes you feel special, but you're just flat out wrong here, and the hardware proves it.

The Japanese classify the disk system as its own thing

[phart010 | 1,708]

22 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

If they have the exact same hardware inside, they're the same system.  You're trying to play devil's advocate, but really creating a straw man argument, as I specifically stated that the systems I was calling the same were internally identical, or nearly so in the case of the NES vs Famicom (and I've pointed out the minor differences between them).

NES and Famicom don’t have the same exact hardware though. For example, Famicom controller 2 has a built in microphone. As a result, many games used its functionality… even Zelda! And the extra sound channel while still present in NES, it is not enabled. You have to modify the hardware to enable it.
 

When they ported software from Famicom to NES they had to remove microphone functionality as well as the extra sound channel due to hardware incompatibility. Just sayin

Also, do you consider the 60-pin port and the 72-pin port as “hardware”? If you do, they are not the same…

Edited January 9, 2023 by phart010

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

Yeah, FDS is technically different.  I wanted to say it's analogous to the 32X vs Genesis, but really it's much closer than that.  Most FDS games can be made cart-compatible with changing just a small segment of code.  I've got Doki Doki Panic, SMB2J and a few other FDS games on cart form, and I can't believe the Chinese bootleggers would have had to spend months and months reworking the entire code.  So the code does have to be hacked, but I'm guessing that 95% of the code is compatible with the NES/Famicom architecture...

So yeah, the FDS is technically a different system in my view, but it's about as close to the NES/Famicom as you can possibly get without saying it's the same library...

[Gloves | 11,839]

1 hour ago, CasualCart said:

Haha everything I post is fair-game for avatars.

-CasualCart

Excellent.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Yeah, FDS is technically different.  I wanted to say it's analogous to the 32X vs Genesis, but really it's much closer than that.  Most FDS games can be made cart-compatible with changing just a small segment of code.  I've got Doki Doki Panic, SMB2J and a few other FDS games on cart form, and I can't believe the Chinese bootleggers would have had to spend months and months reworking the entire code.  So the code does have to be hacked, but I'm guessing that 95% of the code is compatible with the NES/Famicom architecture...

So yeah, the FDS is technically a different system in my view, but it's about as close to the NES/Famicom as you can possibly get without saying it's the same library...

I think it's likely a bit more complicated than you're making it out to be. Otherwise why were we initially given "half" versions of SMB2J? Furthermore, as you recall Brian just stole Kaisers version of the game to make his own, if it were as easy as you suggested, then he would have just did it himself, and made a perfect port.

The conversion carts are overrated. Broken games, missing sound effects, lack of endings for several of them, etc, all due to being converted.

Now the Little Paradise conversion carts, they're a different story, but you've got added hardware as well

Also, the guys that made the carts were Taiwanese, not Chinese. Let's get the story correct.

[phart010 | 1,708]

According to this, it would be impossible to complete a game of Super Chinese 2 on an NES system due to hardware limitations

Super Chinese 2
This game apparently has a place in game where you must blow into the mic to be able to proceed. Confirmed in this video: http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html#http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18096475 at 22:14 there's a dialogue with princess Leila and she tells you to blow into the microphone to prove yourself.

[Gloves | 11,839]

5 minutes ago, phart010 said:

According to this, it would be impossible to complete a game of Super Chinese 2 on an NES system due to hardware limitations

Super Chinese 2
This game apparently has a place in game where you must blow into the mic to be able to proceed. Confirmed in this video: http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html#http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18096475 at 22:14 there's a dialogue with princess Leila and she tells you to blow into the microphone to prove yourself.

A port could easily replace this mechanic, or come with a peripheral.

[phart010 | 1,708]

8 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I think it's likely a bit more complicated than you're making it out to be. Otherwise why were we initially given "half" versions of SMB2J? Furthermore, as you recall Brian just stole Kaisers version of the game to make his own, if it were as easy as you suggested, then he would have just did it himself, and made a perfect port.

The conversion carts are overrated. Broken games, missing sound effects, lack of endings for several of them, etc, all due to being converted.

 

Apparently there is a “near perfect” version available nowadays.. but it was the result of multiple layers of iterations by different people fixing little things here and there. 

[phart010 | 1,708]

Just now, Gloves said:

A port could easily replace this mechanic, or come with a peripheral.

Correct, but I guess the argument is that a port would not be necessary if they are the same system

[ThePhleo | 2,185]

doesn’t the top loader have no region locking? In fact…if I clip off pin 4 of my NES CIC chip, I just defeated all region locks for the NES.

Anyway, if we’re being absolutists, then any game that has anything more than a CIC, PRG, and CHR chips is not a Nintendo game…it’s extra hardware therefor a different library

 

[phart010 | 1,708]

3 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

doesn’t the top loader have no region locking? In fact…if I clip off pin 4 of my NES CIC chip, I just defeated all region locks for the NES.

Anyway, if we’re being absolutists, then any game that has anything more than a CIC, PRG, and CHR chips is not a Nintendo game…it’s extra hardware therefor a different library

 

If the intent of this discussion is absolute chaos then we have succeeded

[Gloves | 11,839]

8 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Correct, but I guess the argument is that a port would not be necessary if they are the same system

Of course it'd need a port, Super Chinese 2 is in Japanese, and is text-heavy.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

8 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Apparently there is a “near perfect” version available nowadays.. but it was the result of multiple layers of iterations by different people fixing little things here and there. 

It's definitely not the one that Brian "made" though. He claimed his was near perfect, but he forgot to fix the graphics that kaiser changed, and the rest of the inaccurate parts remained too ..oops