Decoupling the NES from the Famicom

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

52 minutes ago, Gaia Gensouki said:

Personally, I prefer to keep things simple and see no need to reinvent the wheel. The NES and Famicom are the same consoles with only some minor and mostly superficial differences. The FDS may be it's own thing hardware-wise, but I would still consider it to be part of the NES/Famicom library. Some of those games even amde its way to real famicom or NES cartridges.

The FDS is comparable to the Sega CD and absolutely should not be considered as part of the Famicom library.  Those carts you speak of were ports, not simply conversions.  It takes more to play them without an FDS unit than just putting the same code on a chip.  The FDS expanded the capabilities of the Famicom in the same way that the SCD did with the Genesis/Mega Drive.  It'd be like saying the SCD library should be considered part of the Genesis library because some of the games exist in cart form.

[Gaia Gensouki | 1,079]

17 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The FDS is comparable to the Sega CD and absolutely should not be considered as part of the Famicom library.  Those carts you speak of were ports, not simply conversions.  It takes more to play them without an FDS unit than just putting the same code on a chip.  The FDS expanded the capabilities of the Famicom in the same way that the SCD did with the Genesis/Mega Drive.  It'd be like saying the SCD library should be considered part of the Genesis library because some of the games exist in cart form.

Okay, you've got a point. That part of my argumentation was actually kinda dumb. But other than that I'm still on the side of people that group NES and Famicom together.

[phart010 | 1,708]

2 hours ago, Gaia Gensouki said:

Personally, I prefer to keep things simple and see no need to reinvent the wheel. The NES and Famicom are the same consoles with only some minor and mostly superficial differences. The FDS may be it's own thing hardware-wise, but I would still consider it to be part of the NES/Famicom library. Some of those games even amde its way to real famicom or NES cartridges.

If you wanted to differentiate every single hardware alteration as its own thing, then you're in for a bad time, since hardware makers always make some slight or big alterations to their original designs either because original parts are no longer being manufactured or because they can slim down their consoles or reduce procution costs if they use similar parts. Just look at the many hardware revisions of the Genesis/Mega Drive: https://segaretro.org/Sega_Mega_Drive/Hardware_revisions

It was a bit of a hassle for me since I bought my first Mega Drive console last year and wanted an older model 1, because of the better sound chip. So would the later model 1 units be entirely different console, just because parts of their internals are different?

You could even continue this with hardware revisions from later consoles such as PS2 or PS4. The PS2 had many hardware revisions and the PS4 quite a few as well, even with the base PS4 models.

Therefore separating the NES and Famicom libraries seems like mere sophistry to me with no real actual value. And I say this as someone who collects Famicom and FDS games myself, among other Japanese imports such as the SFC (which btw. looks exactly like our European model of the SNES). So it's not like I don't care, but rather think that the differences aren't huge enough to make up a completely different system.

This is why I say the hardware differences are irrelevant. In my arguments, I was pointing out hardware differences only to play devils advocate. In the end though, I don’t think hardware differences matter. What does matter is how Nintendo intended for these products to be perceived by their respective markets. One system was marketed as a family computer. The other was marketed as an Entertainment system.

This concept also extends to other businesses. For example, Toyota Supra and Lexus GS300 both use the 2JZ engine. So naturally both cars may have a bunch of interchangeable parts. But one is marketed as a sports car and one is marketed as a Luxury. So they’re not the same car. 

[spacepup | 2,412]

citation: https://www.nintendo.co.jp/corporate/en/history/index.html

Obviously there are differences in the hardware and also software released.  So one can view them as different of course, and I can understand some of the arguments.  But for all intents and purposes, they've been viewed as basically the same major console - just different iterations for different markets.

I don't really know why there is a need to put the two against each other.  Both are great.  NES has some great games.  Famicom has some great games.  Some of the games they share, some are unique to each region.  

Let's choose to celebrate and discuss their differences!  Not really a need to say this one sucks, that one sucks, this one good, that one bad.  They both have unique things to celebrate and enjoy, and we've been celebrating and enjoying them for decades now.

[phart010 | 1,708]

Spaghetti: Boiled noodles. Add meat sauce. Garnish with cheese.

 

Lasagna: Boiled noodles. Add meat sauce. Garnish with cheese.

 

Ravioli: Boiled noodles. Add meat sauce. Garnish with cheese.

 

Ziti: Boiled noodles. Add meat sauce. Garnish with cheese.

 

THEY'RE ALL THE SAME!!

 

[fcgamer | 4,753]

@phart010you just took this thread to the next level

Golden Ganons 23 baby!!!

[PII | 1,897]

@phart010 Now that I've moved past thinking with my stomach and I realize what you are trying to say and that this is not in fact posted in the wrong thread or, er.... ??

...I forgot what I was going to say....

...

.....

........Oh yeah, I wanna tear into that pan of Ravioli like Homer Simpson eating an orange.

[Gloves | 11,830]

10 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Spaghetti: Boiled noodles. Add meat sauce. Garnish with cheese.

 

Lasagna: Boiled noodles. Add meat sauce. Garnish with cheese.

 

Ravioli: Boiled noodles. Add meat sauce. Garnish with cheese.

 

Ziti: Boiled noodles. Add meat sauce. Garnish with cheese.

 

THEY'RE ALL THE SAME!!

 

Yeah I mean if I'm in the mood for a pasta dish, any of those would suffice. In the mouth they're all really quite the same. 

You've betrayed your argument in this case by touching on the core issue - these dishes are all sufficiently similar to be considered the same when determining "what's for dinner?". If my wife said it was between lasagna or pasta, just pick one, they're close enough. 

[Gloves | 11,830]

22 minutes ago, spacepup said:

citation: https://www.nintendo.co.jp/corporate/en/history/index.html

Obviously there are differences in the hardware and also software released.  So one can view them as different of course, and I can understand some of the arguments.  But for all intents and purposes, they've been viewed as basically the same major console - just different iterations for different markets.

I don't really know why there is a need to put the two against each other.  Both are great.  NES has some great games.  Famicom has some great games.  Some of the games they share, some are unique to each region.  

Let's choose to celebrate and discuss their differences!  Not really a need to say this one sucks, that one sucks, this one good, that one bad.  They both have unique things to celebrate and enjoy, and we've been celebrating and enjoying them for decades now.

See, this is a slam dunk post. Not some post about pasta. Straight from the horses mouth. 

[phart010 | 1,708]

1 minute ago, Gloves said:

Yeah I mean if I'm in the mood for a pasta dish, any of those would suffice. In the mouth they're all really quite the same. 

You've betrayed your argument in this case by touching on the core issue - these dishes are all sufficiently similar to be considered the same when determining "what's for dinner?". If my wife said it was between lasagna or pasta, just pick one, they're close enough. 

I was being sarcastic. They are in fact all different dishes in my opinion 

[Gloves | 11,830]

Just now, phart010 said:

I was being sarcastic. They are in fact all different dishes in my opinion 

I know you were being sarcastic lol. 

[phart010 | 1,708]

3 minutes ago, Gloves said:

See, this is a slam dunk post. Not some post about pasta. Straight from the horses mouth. 

That is an overly simplified statement for investors 

[Gloves | 11,830]

Just now, phart010 said:

That is an overly simplified statement for investors 

YOU'RE an overly simplified statement for investors! 

[fcgamer | 4,753]

14 minutes ago, spacepup said:

I don't really know why there is a need to put the two against each other.  Both are great.  NES has some great games.  Famicom has some great games.  Some of the games they share, some are unique to each region.  

I watched a video a few years back made by a friend from Sweden, in which he discussed ten or twenty good games that weren't available on the Famicom. The list started out with Captain America and I knew I was in for a real treat.

Aside from some of the Disney games and Jaws, almost all of the NES exclusives are rubbish, just not particularly good games.

Then there's the larger (unnecessary) size of the cartridges, the annoyance of actually trying to get a game to work on a toaster (never had this problem once with a Famicom), lack of peripherals, lack of the sound channel, can't save the games and levels you build, etc etc. 

The NES is just such an unpleasant experience, with the Famicom opting not to partake in the bad points that the NES does.

Without the Famicom, the NES can't really stand alone, but the reverse can't be said about the Famicom, which is why a primarily western base prefers to view the machines as the whole, rather than the parts.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

11 minutes ago, Gloves said:

You've betrayed your argument in this case by touching on the core issue - these dishes are all sufficiently similar to be considered the same when determining "what's for dinner?". If my wife said it was between lasagna or pasta, just pick one, they're close enough. 

Definitely not the case for anyone I know IRL. 

Pasta is the quick, easy dish you throw together as you're not sure what else to have, lasagna is the PITA meal that is considered a treat, usually reserved for more special occasions. 

True story, the only place I can even buy lasagna noodles locally is at the Southeast Asian shop.

[T-Pac | 7,587]

11 hours ago, Gloves said:

Excellent.

Just screenshotting this for posterity...

-CasualCart

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

7 minutes ago, CasualCart said:

Just screenshotting this for posterity...

-CasualCart

[Gloves | 11,830]

11 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Definitely not the case for anyone I know IRL. 

Pasta is the quick, easy dish you throw together as you're not sure what else to have, lasagna is the PITA meal that is considered a treat, usually reserved for more special occasions. 

True story, the only place I can even buy lasagna noodles locally is at the Southeast Asian shop.

Sure but you can just go to the store and buy a premade lasagna easily enough. Come to think of it, that's less often an option for Skabetti.

Also Lasagna is a pasta. These are all pasta dishes.

ALSO how is lasagna a PITA meal? You literally just make a meat + pasta casserole in layers, casserole being among the easiest, most chill meals to make. Chuck that bad boi in the oven and it's good after X time; skabetti you have to monitor to make sure it's the right doneness else it'll be all mushy and gross.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

11 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Sure but you can just go to the store and buy a premade lasagna easily enough. Come to think of it, that's less often an option for Skabetti.

Also Lasagna is a pasta. These are all pasta dishes.

ALSO how is lasagna a PITA meal? You literally just make a meat + pasta casserole in layers, casserole being among the easiest, most chill meals to make. Chuck that bad boi in the oven and it's good after X time; skabetti you have to monitor to make sure it's the right doneness else it'll be all mushy and gross.

I can get premade skets at the 7-11, to get lasagna gotta go to a higher end restaurant.

A proper lasagna requires one to boil the noodles first. Then there's the comparatively long list of ingredients needed to make that bad boy, until finally you get to toss it in the oven and relax.

Unless you're making your own noodles, skets is as simple as it gets. Boil a pot of water, as you're waiting for the water, prepare your sauce. After the water is boiling, toss the noodles in and come back five minutes later to check, give it another stir and take them out at seven.

The simplest of dishes.

[Gloves | 11,830]

Just now, fcgamer said:

I can get premade skets at the 7-11, to get lasagna gotta go to a higher end restaurant.

A proper lasagna requires one to boil the noodles first. Then there's the comparatively long list of ingredients needed to make that bad boy, until finally you get to toss it in the oven and relax.

Unless you're making your own noodles, skets is as simple as it gets. Boil a pot of water, as you're waiting for the water, prepare your sauce. After the water is boiling, toss the noodles in and come back five minutes later to check, give it another stir and take them out at seven.

The simplest of dishes.

Imagine not making your own noodles. Tch. Pleb!

[fcgamer | 4,753]

3 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Imagine not making your own noodles. Tch. Pleb!

I know, right.

[PII | 1,897]

This all makes me think of those days in the mid-90's when "everyone" either had or wanted to have either a Sega Genesis or a Super Nintendo.  No one has to say it.  I'm well aware that these are very different consoles, but back in the hey-day there was an overwhelming tendency to view them as more or less the same machine.  It was "which one is better" that divided us and made the school hallways before 1st period a vigorous debate between those level-headed SNES-lovers and the rest of those wild yahoos who wanted their sports games and "blast processing."  (things have come a long way and I love Genesis too now.) We were all kids then.  We had less discriminating tastes.  There were a ton of shared games on those two systems.  I have a much more discriminating taste now and I'm capable of knowing well, that SNES and Genesis are totally different Consoles.

My point being: In the short run, no two people are going to be made to agree about this.  If you ask someone of less discriminating taste they will tell you Famicom/NES are the same.  If you ask someone of more discriminating taste they will tell you they are not the same console in spite of having almost the same build and big overlap in the libraries.  

I'm not an expert on the differences between them.  I know the Famicom has a superior sound chip.  Does that make it a different console?  I really have no idea.

My Take: NES and Famicom are very closely related consoles.  If SNES/Genesis are cousins, then Famicom/NES are brothers from the same two parents who are frequently mistaken for twins.

That all being the case I can totally dig if someone wants to view their respective libraries together.  I do it all the time with two or more disparate consoles, paying close attention to exclusives and which one has the better experience eg. Colecovision / Intellivision / Atari 2600&7800.

Also, @fcgamer and @Gloves ought to be placed inside Thunderdome and forced to fight to the death for their recent and not so recent heretical statements regarding the 'NES sucking' and 'not really liking the NES', respectively  

[mbd39 | 2,029]

15 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Ok look I see from this point, this post went live like 7-8hours ago and ignored the responses so far to do this so if it's in disagreement or a re-run, that's why.

I gave it a thanks, nothing better fit.  Maybe it's as long as I've been at it, combined with some other factors too, but I do agree, they are different systems, yet its offspring SNES/SFC I would never say the same.

Sure they share the same architecture, but, they also most definitely do not as well.  I've been exposed to the Japanese side of the Nintendo(NES) world since 1995/96 because I was in the ground floor of emulation, pre-iNES format, Pasofami if anyone recalls that?  Long ago I was deep into that community, used to work on making a few Pasofami rom sets work in it, then I'm the one who wrote the documentation still in use for the NES header format, did plenty of deeper sketchier stuff under another name then, even worked with a Taiwanese buddy as his helper and tester breaking the FDS barrier and having FWNES hit(FanwenNES) that made that reality.  I had to educate, self educate, and investigate this stuff before it got hipster hot shit cool in the last 10-15+ years.

Holy shit, I remember Pasofami. I think that was my first NES emulator. I remember playing Gradius on my 486. I also remember the weird file format.

 

[fcgamer | 4,753]

9 minutes ago, PII said:

 If you ask someone of more discriminating taste they will tell you they are not the same console in spite of having almost the same build and big overlap in the libraries.  

That's the thing though, they don't actually have a big overlap in the libraries. Many NES games are only available on Famicom Disk format, which is its own thing. About half of the NES library are shoddy exclusives, and when compared in sizes of the libraries, it's nothing.

It's sort of like how English and Danish share 60% vocabulary or something like that, though unless you know a couple other Germanic languages, your reading of Danish will be quite limited.

[Tanooki | 4,952]

8 hours ago, fcgamer said:

These are more accurate disk to cart conversions, but you need added hardware, even have to "flip" the game.

Ok I'll take moero twinbee there, and... 'baby mario' if you have that one too.

 

@mbd39 Remember that Pasofami was Japanese but some of them were released in english with the menus translated shortly after?  Me.  I had been self teaching myself a bit of Japanese since I had SFC and GB stuff, PCE CDs too and it helped knowing wtf was going on, and some FC via multicart in a NES shell.  I grabbed a hex editor at the time, figured out how to trace back the menus on it, and within the confines would hack english into the menus so more people could use that thing, but stopped cold when the NES format dropped with iNES etc and went and did the breakdown of the headers on that instead and wrote that document up on gamefaqs.  I had my hands in a lot of stuff on there when it came to the NES, FC, SNES and SFC along with Gameboy too in the 90s and early 00s.  That's why at times I'll go anywhere from snark to helpful when I see people who came up after acting like they're the expert.