Bad Takes Thread

[Gulag Joe | 584]

I've already taken the mantle on the "I'm only collecting so I can destroy the hobby for everyone" narrative and I love every minute of it. These slapdicks need to come up with better content, like more conspiracy videos. YouTube loves pushing those. I can actually draw a direct line that proves the person who plays speed run video games is hacking and none of it is actually real. Stay tuned for my video that "they don't want you to see".

[RH | 4,915]

9 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

I've already taken the mantle on the "I'm only collecting so I can destroy the hobby for everyone" narrative and I love every minute of it. These slapdicks need to come up with better content, like more conspiracy videos. YouTube loves pushing those. I can actually draw a direct line that proves the person who plays speed run video games is hacking and none of it is actually real. Stay tuned for my video that "they don't want you to see".

Don't... don't do that to my Summoning Salts.  Don't destroy his platform.

[Silent Hill | 276]

3 hours ago, RH said:

3 hours ago, Silent Hill said:

rEaL cOlLeCtOrS!

 

Love when people blame the steady rise in retro prices over the last decade+ solely on WATA. Especially when it comes from youtubers who make "hidden gem" videos. The ones where you can draw a directly line from the video to the price hike. 

I'm not trying to be mean, but I think the same could be said about putting the blame on the "hidden gems" videos.  I do get the affect, but it's not like MJR talks about 10 new "hidden gems" every week, plus even at that rate, it'd take a long time to account for the massive spike over that past 20 years.

I don't put the blame, per se, on Wata but they are a HUGE part in moving people into game collecting as a "speculative investment".  Before that, we were all mostly collectors that enjoyed owning this stuff for the sake and enjoyment of sheer collecting.  Maybe you collected to play, or maybe you collected for nice, shelf-candy pieces or maybe you enjoyed the hunt of digging deep, picking up every copy of every NES game you saw in a shop, just to hunt down new and odd variants.  Regardless, there was a shift about 3-4 years ago and people started to think "Hey, I owned that as a kid!  What, it's worth how much?!  I think I'll grab a few of my old games and hold onto them.  They might be worth 10x in the future!"

My point being, Wata's mass-marketing brought in those willing to collect for the sake of pure-speculation in value.  I don't appreciate that.  I mean, I kind of saw that coming because that's how nostalgia works with enough time, but Wata escalated the speed in which that happened.  I'm not bitter, but I'm not going to ignore that they had a hand in the mass FOMO around game collecting these past few years either.

I didn't mean to imply that folks like MJR deserve ALL the blame, but they are partly to blame, even if well-intentioned. I understand the rise in pricing is due to many factors, including YT, FB groups, news articles, WATA, etc. Just wanted to point out how narrow-minded it is to place all the blame on one single factor, especially one that arguably hasn't had nearly the negative impact on prices as other factors.

I personally don't think WATA has had much of an impact on game collecting or rising prices, outside of sealed games and to an even lesser extent, mint CIB (cartridge-based) games. I don't see the logic in something like SM64 hitting $1.5M at auction and tons of people "holding onto" their loose copy in hopes that they retire one day. Not that it would even matter unless you're upset that less people are selling their games today due to whatever financial gain they think they stand to make at some point in the future. The shift of people thinking their games are worth far more than what they realistically are happened well before WATA's time, at least with used copies. That happened more so due to other factors, like YT channels, Storage Wars (lol), people becoming older and having disposable income, retro game conventions blowing up, simple supply and demand, etc.

I'd like to hear from a "collector that enjoyed owning this stuff for the sake and enjoyment of sheer collecting" that has been hindered from doing so in recent years due to WATA. Because I would place myself into that bucket and couldn't give two shits about what WATA is doing other than it's going to cost far more for me to finish my sealed Silent Hill set now than it would have a couple years ago, but that's just what happened and prices are already cooling off on the two I need in particular, though they are still well above my comfort level of spend. The upside to all of this is maybe some sealed/mint games I already had are worth more now so I can turn those into even more games or whatever else I want than I could have by selling a couple years ago.

The bottom line is I don't see any reason to point fingers at WATA for impacting prices unless you're a sealed collector, and even then, I can't think of a single OG sealed collector bent out of shape about all of this as they are presumably now in a much better position financially with their current collection. If they're pissy about rising prices, it's a double-edged sword of course. 

[Khromak | 769]

21 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

and even then, I can't think of a single OG sealed collector bent out of shape about all of this as they are presumably now in a much better position financially with their current collection. If they're pissy about rising prices, it's a double-edged sword of course. 

I agree with most of your post, up to this point. Grain of salt: I'm not a sealed game collector. I have, however, spoken with a bunch of them on this online forum and from what I've seen, it seems like most of them aren't in the habit of selling games, but much more interested in buying or maybe trading. So while their net worth may have gone up, that only matters if you're selling.

It reminds me of the housing market, people say "you should be excited that home values are skyrocketing, you're a homeowner!" but like...you only realize those gains if you sell your house, and presumably you're going to be buying one, because you need someplace to live, so ultimately it's a wash because you're paying more for the one you buy as well.

Sure, your net worth has gone up, but how does the thing that sits on your shelf being worth $25,000 where it used to be worth $5,000 help you? All rising prices mean is that now, when you want to buy another $5,000 game, it will be $25,000. Unless, of course, you're going to sell your sealed SMB to buy a sealed TLOZ or something, but once again I go back to my housing example, you aren't really gaining anything. You could've just traded them, just like you could've back when they cost $5,000 (just using made up numbers, before someone says "but SMB is worth 5x TLOZ, idiot!!").

[Silent Hill | 276]

46 minutes ago, Khromak said:

I agree with most of your post, up to this point. Grain of salt: I'm not a sealed game collector. I have, however, spoken with a bunch of them on this online forum and from what I've seen, it seems like most of them aren't in the habit of selling games, but much more interested in buying or maybe trading. So while their net worth may have gone up, that only matters if you're selling.

It reminds me of the housing market, people say "you should be excited that home values are skyrocketing, you're a homeowner!" but like...you only realize those gains if you sell your house, and presumably you're going to be buying one, because you need someplace to live, so ultimately it's a wash because you're paying more for the one you buy as well.

Sure, your net worth has gone up, but how does the thing that sits on your shelf being worth $25,000 where it used to be worth $5,000 help you? All rising prices mean is that now, when you want to buy another $5,000 game, it will be $25,000. Unless, of course, you're going to sell your sealed SMB to buy a sealed TLOZ or something, but once again I go back to my housing example, you aren't really gaining anything. You could've just traded them, just like you could've back when they cost $5,000 (just using made up numbers, before someone says "but SMB is worth 5x TLOZ, idiot!!").

I get that point/analogy but that's assuming everything else you're looking for as a sealed collector is similarly valued/priced. Perhaps you're able to sell a duplicate/under-copy at a nice high price currently and scoop up stuff that is still under-valued or that you want in your collection more? Or in the case of quite a few games we've seen sell for crazy amounts, sell now and re-buy later once the price cools down. I know people that have done something similar in the housing market example. Sell their house due to high equity on current market and rent or downsize for X years until the market cools. You could still be up money at that point after re-buying a similar house. A lot of factors, but again, I understand your point of value is only relevant if selling. 

 

[RH | 4,915]

1 hour ago, Silent Hill said:

I didn't mean to imply that folks like MJR deserve ALL the blame, but they are partly to blame, even if well-intentioned. I understand the rise in pricing is due to many factors, including YT, FB groups, news articles, WATA, etc. Just wanted to point out how narrow-minded it is to place all the blame on one single factor, especially one that arguably hasn't had nearly the negative impact on prices as other factors.

I personally don't think WATA has had much of an impact on game collecting or rising prices, outside of sealed games and to an even lesser extent, mint CIB (cartridge-based) games. I don't see the logic in something like SM64 hitting $1.5M at auction and tons of people "holding onto" their loose copy in hopes that they retire one day. Not that it would even matter unless you're upset that less people are selling their games today due to whatever financial gain they think they stand to make at some point in the future. The shift of people thinking their games are worth far more than what they realistically are happened well before WATA's time, at least with used copies. That happened more so due to other factors, like YT channels, Storage Wars (lol), people becoming older and having disposable income, retro game conventions blowing up, simple supply and demand, etc.

I'd like to hear from a "collector that enjoyed owning this stuff for the sake and enjoyment of sheer collecting" that has been hindered from doing so in recent years due to WATA. Because I would place myself into that bucket and couldn't give two shits about what WATA is doing other than it's going to cost far more for me to finish my sealed Silent Hill set now than it would have a couple years ago, but that's just what happened and prices are already cooling off on the two I need in particular, though they are still well above my comfort level of spend. The upside to all of this is maybe some sealed/mint games I already had are worth more now so I can turn those into even more games or whatever else I want than I could have by selling a couple years ago.

The bottom line is I don't see any reason to point fingers at WATA for impacting prices unless you're a sealed collector, and even then, I can't think of a single OG sealed collector bent out of shape about all of this as they are presumably now in a much better position financially with their current collection. If they're pissy about rising prices, it's a double-edged sword of course. 

Sorry, in the middle of something at work and I wanted to take a 2 minute break, so I skimmed.  Forgive me if you cover this.

The "problem" with Wata attracting speculators is that those $1m+ sales get headline attention.  Most people in their 30s-40s can't afford anything like that, but they can afford to drop a few thousand.  Those people see the article and they want a taste of the speculation, but they know they aren't going to be able to get a "left handed bros" in good condition.  So they take one in CIB.  If they think quantity is better than quality, they buy up 20-50 carts just to sit on.

Again, I don't put 100% of the uptick blame on Wata, but they were a significant part and that's the trickle-down affect of getting mass media attention to the game collecting market.

[MiamiSlice | 3,096]

9 hours ago, RH said:

I don't put the blame, per se, on Wata but they are a HUGE part in moving people into game collecting as a "speculative investment".  Before that, we were all mostly collectors that enjoyed owning this stuff for the sake and enjoyment of sheer collecting.  Maybe you collected to play, or maybe you collected for nice, shelf-candy pieces or maybe you enjoyed the hunt of digging deep, picking up every copy of every NES game you saw in a shop, just to hunt down new and odd variants.  Regardless, there was a shift about 3-4 years ago and people started to think "Hey, I owned that as a kid!  What, it's worth how much?!  I think I'll grab a few of my old games and hold onto them.  They might be worth 10x in the future!"

I think you are underestimating how many people thought of these as an investment long before Wata came along. I remember having plenty of conversations with people who were stashing games away to hopefully sell long down the line. I was one of those people saying that historically, collectibles were not a good investment. I was telling people that because they *did* think collectibles were a good investment. 

I think it would have been hard for Wata & Heritage to convince people that they should speculate on games if they didn't already believe that. And lots of collectibles exploded in price around the same time, like Pokemon cards. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

17 hours ago, RH said:

Sorry, in the middle of something at work and I wanted to take a 2 minute break, so I skimmed.  Forgive me if you cover this.

The "problem" with Wata attracting speculators is that those $1m+ sales get headline attention.  Most people in their 30s-40s can't afford anything like that, but they can afford to drop a few thousand.  Those people see the article and they want a taste of the speculation, but they know they aren't going to be able to get a "left handed bros" in good condition.  So they take one in CIB.  If they think quantity is better than quality, they buy up 20-50 carts just to sit on.

Again, I don't put 100% of the uptick blame on Wata, but they were a significant part and that's the trickle-down affect of getting mass media attention to the game collecting market.

I think we're just on opposite sides of thinking on this. 

I don't think a good volume of people in their 30s - 40s can (or would) drop a few thousand dollars on a game. I'm mid 30s and can't do that lol

And even less people would hoard loose carts due to a sealed copy going for $1M

WATA/HA put a huge spotlight on sealed games for sure, but they don't really deserve the heat for fuggin' things up for "normal collectors". It's just misplaced frustration or whatever you want to call it when people who don't collect sealed games chastise WATA without them having caused any real impact to how or what they personally collect. 

If anyone has examples of something WATA graded or something HA sold that had a direct impact on non-sealed copies skyrocketing, then please share. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

14 hours ago, MiamiSlice said:

I think it would have been hard for Wata & Heritage to convince people that they should speculate on games if they didn't already believe that. And lots of collectibles exploded in price around the same time, like Pokemon cards. 

Even if WATA/HA caused people to speculate - it's on sealed games. 

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

29 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Even if WATA/HA caused people to speculate - it's on sealed games. 

You’re out to lunch if you don’t think WATA/HA had a massive effect on retro prices. Not just sealed. CIB as well and certain rare carts. The YouTuber effect is minuscule compared to the WATA/HA effect. To argue otherwise is sort of a moot point TBH. 

And collectors of sealed or high end games - and I use the word “collector” intentionally, and not investor/speculator- largely don’t give a shit about the value of their games increasing. They enjoy the games. The history. The art. The stories behind acquiring them. They don’t care about selling them. It’s not all about money. This obsession with money is toxic. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

34 minutes ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

You’re out to lunch if you don’t think WATA/HA had a massive effect on retro prices. Not just sealed. CIB as well and certain rare carts. The YouTuber effect is minuscule compared to the WATA/HA effect. To argue otherwise is sort of a moot point TBH. 

And collectors of sealed or high end games - and I use the word “collector” intentionally, and not investor/speculator- largely don’t give a shit about the value of their games increasing. They enjoy the games. The history. The art. The stories behind acquiring them. They don’t care about selling them. It’s not all about money. This obsession with money is toxic. 

Then let's look at some examples of direct correlation (bonus points for examples of "rare" carts).

Should be tons of them if they've had such a massive effect. 

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

3 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Then let's look at some examples of direct correlation (bonus points for examples of "rare" carts).

Should be tons of them if they've had such a massive effect. 

I mean as someone who actively has bought games (sealed, CIB and loose) pre and post WATA, my personal experience is my example. The amount of money required to purchase certain items. I’m working and don’t have the time nor energy to break down stats for you. Nor do I care enough frankly. And by rare carts, I’m referring to your stadium events, NWCs, etc. of the world. I don’t think WATA has had much of an effect on a super Mario 64 or contra cart. 
 

I really don’t know how you can argue the other way. Just do some elementary research or talk to a few OG collectors. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

13 minutes ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

I mean as someone who actively has bought games (sealed, CIB and loose) pre and post WATA, my personal experience is my example. The amount of money required to purchase certain items. I’m working and don’t have the time nor energy to break down stats for you. Nor do I care enough frankly. And by rare carts, I’m referring to your stadium events, NWCs, etc. of the world. I don’t think WATA has had much of an effect on a super Mario 64 or contra cart. 
 

I really don’t know how you can argue the other way. Just do some elementary research or talk to a few OG collectors. 

Shame you had the time and energy to call out the massive effect WATA/HA has had on retro game prices but can't muster up enough to provide some examples. (and Stadium Events/NWC are not good examples at all - they're rare as shit and have been steadily on the rise for easily 10+ years)

I'm glad you mentioned games like SM64 and Contra as that's mostly been my point - from what I can tell, WATA/HA has not had an impact on items that a vast majority of people who bitch about them tend to collect. 

Believe it or not, I too am someone who has actively bought games before and after WATA's time and I can easily say my experience is my example. (and I've been collecting for ~15 years so maybe my opinion is that of an "OG collector"?)

I'll share a few examples of the YT effect from a single MJR PS2 Hidden Gems video from May 2018 in hopes that you find the time and effort to share some similar examples directly from WATA/HA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpsn69cFCmQ
 

• The Red Star - $15 to $35 from April 2018 to August 2018
• Shox - $5 to $17 from April 2018 to June 2018
• Spy Fiction - $12 to $40 from April 2018 to July 2018
• Lifeline - $12 to $25 from April 2018 to June 2018
   

Just pulled those from VGPC as an example, and not only have these never fallen back down to their April 2018 price, they've become even more expensive since. 

That's just a few games from one single video. When I think about all the similar videos from larger channels, I tend to make claims like my earlier one about being able to link YT videos to price hikes and YT having a larger overall impact on retro prices than WATA/HA, even if that's not necessarily their intent by making the videos. 

Again, never said WATA/HA hasn't had any impact at all, but their impact has primarily been on a small subset of retro collecting - sealed games, and maybe some mint CIB. Many, many other factors have impacted prices for used retro games but those normally get swept under the rug in favor of complaining about WATA/HA because it's been the thing to do recently.

 

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

8 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Shame you had the time and energy to call out the massive effect WATA/HA has had on retro game prices but can't muster up enough to provide some examples. (and Stadium Events/NWC are not good examples at all - they're rare as shit and have been steadily on the rise for easily 10+ years)

I'm glad you mentioned games like SM64 and Contra as that's mostly been my point - from what I can tell, WATA/HA has not had an impact on items that a vast majority of people who bitch about them tend to collect. 

Believe it or not, I too am someone who has actively bought games before and after WATA's time and I can easily say my experience is my example. (and I've been collecting for ~15 years so maybe my opinion is that of an "OG collector"?)

I'll share a few examples of the YT effect from a single MJR PS2 Hidden Gems video from May 2018 in hopes that you find the time and effort to share some similar examples directly from WATA/HA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpsn69cFCmQ
 

• The Red Star - $15 to $35 from April 2018 to August 2018
• Shox - $5 to $17 from April 2018 to June 2018
• Spy Fiction - $12 to $40 from April 2018 to July 2018
• Lifeline - $12 to $25 from April 2018 to June 2018
   

Just pulled those from VGPC as an example, and not only have these never fallen back down to their April 2018 price, they've become even more expensive since. 

That's just a few games from one single video. When I think about all the similar videos from larger channels, I tend to make claims like my earlier one about being able to link YT videos to price hikes and YT having a larger overall impact on retro prices than WATA/HA, even if that's not necessarily their intent by making the videos. 

Again, never said WATA/HA hasn't had any impact at all, but their impact has primarily been on a small subset of retro collecting - sealed games, and maybe some mint CIB. Many, many other factors have impacted prices for used retro games but those normally get swept under the rug in favor of complaining about WATA/HA because it's been the thing to do recently.

 

No

[Silent Hill | 276]

16 minutes ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

No

lol thought so - thanks for chiming in. 

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

10 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

lol thought so - thanks for chiming in. 

The opportunity cost for me to continue explaining the obvious isn’t worth the time I could be doing more valuable things. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

13 minutes ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

The opportunity cost for me to continue explaining the obvious isn’t worth the time I could be doing more valuable things. 

Yeah, I get it. It's too much of a hassle to continue a conversation that you injected yourself into. Perhaps next time your initial comment could contain actual information to prove your point so you wouldn't have to keep spinning your wheels explaining the "obvious". 

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

23 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Yeah, I get it. It's too much of a hassle to continue a conversation that you injected yourself into. Perhaps next time your initial comment could contain actual information to prove your point so you wouldn't have to keep spinning your wheels explaining the "obvious". 

Huh

[Gulag Joe | 584]

Wata didn't cause this. The pandemic did. People were looking for all types of places to invest money. Sealed video games just happened to be a niche category that hit bigger than anything else because these things are indeed much harder to come by than other collectibles. Every collectible category that exists saw some type of increase. Many saw massive gains like junk wax basketball cards. Pertaining to video games, Wata just happened to be at the right place at the right time. They were marketed as the pros because they are the pros.

[MiamiSlice | 3,096]

Grading games is just like invading Ukraine

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

As @MiamiSlice has pointed out, clueless people tend to act like they are the experts. Even when they miss any important details that say otherwise.

I mean... This "scam" has me wonder how much of a profit the seller could make. I mean if you include shipping costs from Japan and the fees needed to business with CGA, Inc. in 2019. 

[GPX | 1,370]

On 1/22/2022 at 7:24 AM, Gulag Joe said:

Wata didn't cause this. The pandemic did. People were looking for all types of places to invest money. Sealed video games just happened to be a niche category that hit bigger than anything else because these things are indeed much harder to come by than other collectibles. Every collectible category that exists saw some type of increase. Many saw massive gains like junk wax basketball cards. Pertaining to video games, Wata just happened to be at the right place at the right time. They were marketed as the pros because they are the pros.

WATA as a grading company didn’t cause the sudden price hikes. On the other hand, WATA, as the marketing side of things (mostly via Deniz)  contributed significantly in raising public awareness that these babies are going for “the sky’s the limit”. There was a period within months he appeared on Pawn Stars several times and involved in some self-promoting articles that caused the initial stir of these prices. 

Yes, the pandemic caused people to spend more for home leisures. But WATA and HA prices were what prompted richer collectors and bigger investors to join in on the roller coaster ride. 

I disagree with “they were marketed as the pros because they are the pros”. They’re pros regarding NES/SNES ntsc knowledge as collectors. They’re not pros in terms of price variations on all gaming collectibles, and certainly weren’t representing the typical hardcore collectors in terms of what they were spending and how much they were willing to spend previously. That was a lot of marketing talk, and not collectors’ talk.

Well that’s my take anyway. 

[Gulag Joe | 584]

2 hours ago, GPX said:

I disagree with “they were marketed as the pros because they are the pros”. They’re pros regarding NES/SNES ntsc knowledge as collectors. They’re not pros in terms of price variations on all gaming collectibles, and certainly weren’t representing the typical hardcore collectors in terms of what they were spending and how much they were willing to spend previously. That was a lot of marketing talk, and not collectors’ talk.

I can agree with this. How about "they are the pros because they effectively marketed themselves as such"

VGA doesn't have much of a marketing presence other than "we exist".

[3rdStrongestMole | 430]

9 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

As @MiamiSlice has pointed out, clueless people tend to act like they are the experts. Even when they miss any important details that say otherwise.

I mean... This "scam" has me wonder how much of a profit the seller could make. I mean if you include shipping costs from Japan and the fees needed to business with CGA, Inc. in 2019. 

Well, Misty is an idiot,  and you're completely right.  It's 129 US dollars,  for one. It costs about 100 to grade any game,  so if you want a graded copy of this game,  it would normally cost you 50 for the game,  plus 100 to grade,  and shipping costs, and,  uhh... yeah,  whoever sold this lost money

[Californication | 1,477]

4 hours ago, 3rdStrongestMole said:

Well, Misty is an idiot,  and you're completely right.  It's 129 US dollars,  for one. It costs about 100 to grade any game,  so if you want a graded copy of this game,  it would normally cost you 50 for the game,  plus 100 to grade,  and shipping costs, and,  uhh... yeah,  whoever sold this lost money

That's implying the game being graded add's $100 in value. In this case the plastic case did not add $100 in value, so I believe Misty is correct in this example.