Game Debate #27: Final Fantasy VII (1997)

[DrAfrokid | 30]

On 12/10/2020 at 3:25 PM, Reed Rothchild said:

I enjoyed IX.  But if you put me on the spot right now I'd have a real hard time naming the cast.

Whereas I could definitely name each and every character in VI and VII.

I have the same problem, FF VII its really important to me. 10 points for me.

Edited December 12, 2020 by DrAfrokid

[Tanooki | 4,958]

On 12/11/2020 at 8:02 AM, Sumer said:

I gave it a 2.  Yep, hate on me, but at least I didn't give it a 1, because I know many love the game.

But, this game ruined FF for me.  As a 40-something, I grew up playing the Ultimas, Wizardrys, and the old school FFs that were Japanese love letters to those two game series.  We already talked about why I hate FF7 in another thread ("Highly Acclaimed Games--that you just don't like!" thread), so you can go over there and see why.

I think the only other person who may agree with this low of a rating will be @Tanooki!  

Well I don't think I could in good conscience go that low, but yeah I would not put it even with 10ft pole range of a 9 let alone a 10.  I call it kind of a kick in the nuts and a slap in the face to call this one either a masterpiece or perfect to deserve full points.

Now to be fair, I have, and do actually own the game, PC version no less which tends (other than poorly sampled video clips) looks, runs, and sounds better so I can only base it off the game itself format doesn't matter.  TO me it is what Ocarina of Time is to N64 owners, overrated, over sucked up to, and then and especially now not 10 worthy.  People are just loaded with forgiveness then and even more with a rose tinted now reality of (either) game today.  Now the story was pretty good, more different then and really even now, all the props in the world there giving the game much of the points I would throw at it.  The materia system works, not a favorite, but it is neat being able within reason to slap on various abilities to your gear, but I do prefer the traditional 'class' system say like Final Fantasy IV has...work your ass off, learn new skills, not just find a magic rock or buy a stupid book grind fest.

My problem with the game is equally as much that it gets hardcore sucked up to due to the media blitz Sony did in doing a big haha moment over Nintendo and the insulting attitude that the 6 before it were basically backwater and for the kids because this was the adult RPG from FF you always wanted?  Did I?  No.  It feels more like a Final Phantasystar to me (as does 10 too which I find better.)  Throwing what were the staples and traditions of the franchise for years in the toilet irked me.  Having these whiny long run non-skippable rant fests, FMV drops, combos of both, including doing that crap each time you do a big spell/summon in combat was utterly time sucking and grating...especially if you lose and get to re-watch it again...and again...

I feel the game was made overly long just to tout the CD format as much as the video clips and solid audio scoring on the format.  The game (like Ocarina) just drags, bad, in numerous places.  Combined with the stuff above, the slow nature of it in general compared to just a few years earlier on 6 (FF3 US) and it's like what the hell?  And sure I may be more negative than positive on this, they are logical fair complaints going by what was, but hey it could be far worse, there's FF8 with all its broken systems and other try and fail mechanics that parallel the earlier Famicom FF2 wtf move they bombed on and dumped.  FF9 was the one excellent of the trio franchise on PS1, it apologized for those 2 previous games and gave you basically a 3D roll up of the SNES generation of Final Fantasy giving one hell of an epic well done adventure returning to the roots, but also scraping the crust off the problem parts.

As ookii said -- MEH

[fox | 1,694]

every negative post reads like

"yeah...well, it sux cause FF (whatever number) is totally better!"

[Sumer | 221]

2 hours ago, fox said:

every negative post reads like

"yeah...well, it sux cause FF (whatever number) is totally better!"

I guess...but like I said, for me, it just was not what I was looking for and pretty much ruined the FF series for me.  It started my dislike for JRPGs.  And I understand many of you love JRPGs, and that is fine too.

In the other thread("Highly Acclaimed Games--That you just don't like" thread), someone said FF IX was more like the older games.  I have never played it, but if that is the case, one of these days I may site down and play it.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,641]

Just a weekly reminder that a 10 is not "perfect."

A 10 means it's one of your personal absolutely favorite games.  Imperfect or not.

[fox | 1,694]

@Sumersounds like you just don’t vibe with JRPGs in general.  FF9 is more of a throwback in that characters have more of a fixed class/role and it uses a more standard fantasy setting.

I wouldn’t say it is closer to Ultima or Wizardry.  You would prob enjoy a lot of the western RPGs for PC though.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,641]

42 minutes ago, Sumer said:

I guess...but like I said, for me, it just was not what I was looking for and pretty much ruined the FF series for me.  It started my dislike for JRPGs.  And I understand many of you love JRPGs, and that is fine too.

In the other thread("Highly Acclaimed Games--That you just don't like" thread), someone said FF IX was more like the older games.  I have never played it, but if that is the case, one of these days I may site down and play it.

Some people just don't like some games.  I think all 27 games so far have gotten some low scores.  Even though many of them are among the most heralded games in history.

[Strange | 1,706]

Final Fantasy VI is my favorite game of all time and I still have to give VII the props it deserves. There has been a lot of revisionist stuff over the years trying to knock this game to mediocre or lower but as someone who went into it expecting to find it “average” after reading all of the contrarian opinions throughout the years, I still was surprised by how good it was. If this game isn’t groundbreaking for its genre/when it was released then I’m not sure where the bar actually is.

[Strange | 1,706]

And as people have articulated in this thread and others, acknowledging that a game is important/historical/good or whatever isn’t a declaration that you love it.

[ZeldaFreak | 3,638]

Listen, all I know is that FFVII contains one of my favorite video game songs of all time

and that alone is enough for me to want to play it, haha

[ZeldaFreak | 3,638]

15 hours ago, ookii_risu said:

Gave it a meh rating. I wasn’t impressed with it after playing VI. There are many reasons I don’t like it. A main character like Aerith dying was not a new thing to RPGs, the polygons were horrendous, the fact you couldn’t skip animations made the battles long and tedious, one-winged angel is a horrible song (especially after having to listen to it for at least a half-hour because Sephiroth destroys the universe over and over and you can’t skip it)... the list goes on and on.

Your opinion on the game itself is fine, not everyone has to unanimously love a game...

but your take on One-Winged Angel is the only thing in this thread I've read that actually made me upset, hahaha

[JamesRobot | 5,845]

Pretty good for an RPG.  I'd go as far as to say that I even like it.  7

[Hammerfestus | 3,922]

You know a part I always liked was when you make it to Junon. Everything from the bit with the girl and the dolphin to exploring the base to having to march in the parade.  Good times.

[Gloves | 11,891]

2 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

You know a part I always liked was when you make it to Junon. Everything from the bit with the girl and the dolphin to exploring the base to having to march in the parade.  Good times.

Send that soldier something special! 

[Tanooki | 4,958]

7 hours ago, Sumer said:

I guess...but like I said, for me, it just was not what I was looking for and pretty much ruined the FF series for me.  It started my dislike for JRPGs.  And I understand many of you love JRPGs, and that is fine too.

In the other thread("Highly Acclaimed Games--That you just don't like" thread), someone said FF IX was more like the older games.  I have never played it, but if that is the case, one of these days I may site down and play it.

He's just being one of those pedantic dismissive catch all types to try and shut down any non-glowing reviews, it's common.  Sure I brought up FF9, but it was not the argument in itself, it was pointing out they screwed up a traditional franchise with 6 games under its belt (10 if you didn't know better about the 4 GB renamed stuff.)  It turned into some modern emphasis stuff, boy band looking type lead, some whiny emo shit, and other cheap barbs I could have taken the low road with but I stuck to the design problems I thought sucked about it.

Because of FF7 going the route it did, I went in another direction and looked then at the Tales of... franchise sometime later in the PSP/Gamecube times, and in the gap before I looked into odd corners and found solid amazing stuff like Revelations the Demon Slayer (SMT Last Bible) on Gameboy Color and the various Dragon Quests on GBC too, even tried Pokemon which was strange but felt more right than FF7 (and 8 did by far.)  When square to me buried the franchise, I didn't quit, I just broadened my cares elsewhere.

FF9 I only even tried between late 2001 or earlier 2002 and was pleased.  FF10 I didn't get right off, like 7 it felt like some weird Phantasy Star X game to me and thought of it as such and was pretty ok with the game...oddly 13 sat best with me, the story worked well being stuck on a line.  I tried 12 on Switch, bored the crap out of me and the weird combat felt forced and stiff, sold it.  FF15 pocket (switch) I found pretty nice though strangely, hated it was download only.

 

6 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Some people just don't like some games.  I think all 27 games so far have gotten some low scores.  Even though many of them are among the most heralded games in history.

At the least that was me.  And it's fairly easy to explain too.  The game on the whole like FF4-6 mostly stays the classic weeds of the medieval style with your random dippings of some technology here or there, nothing overt.  Taken from FF5-6 it has a job system and you can buy into your skills, trade, mix and match like 6 is well known for so you can master stuff and carry it about between classes.  It has more of the emotional tones and emotion that FF4 was well known for that really drags you into the story, especially around corrupt royals and them screwing blood or loyal servants at the higher level (like Cecil or Celes.)  It has like the SNES trio that really solid list of summons as well.  I know I'm not doing it justice, but it's also not ruining things either, but just the whole vibe of the games really felt to me then and even now as an unadmitted apology from Square to the N-generation fans, fans of the property before it went optical and on another track due to Sony getting involved.  IT's also one game that gets a little divisive too because fans of mostly 7 but also 8 will say that FF9 was the black sheep release of the console, a throwback that stinks, which I think says a lot for their personal lack of taste.

[MagusSmurf | 577]

Praising FFVI in posts in which FFVIi is bashed for deviating from the series has me kind of confused. FFVI had already pretty much junked a lot of the then-traditional RPG settings and trappings before FFVII did, the main part of what FFVII added to that was the 3D stuff and all the minor mini games. And then praising FFIX...Its setting is more like the older games the game is a tribute to but the pacing, storytelling, and characters are clearly more like FFViI’s.

Edited December 13, 2020 by MagusSmurf

[RH | 5,013]

I'll add to the discussion is that one of the things I've always noticed about Final Fantasy games, they always re-invent themselves, but keep just enough "staples" that you know you are in a Final Fantasy world.  There is no cohesive story that requires continuity but there are touches you come to expect.

1. You are usually saving the world/the world is about to end.
2. Often, you are seeing temples with crystals or something else in them.
3. There is a common set of enemies and races that are always present a sense of familiarity.
4. Airships.
5. Chocobos.
6. You will meet a guy named Cid.

And that's it.  Nothing else is sacred.  It can be a traditional "fantasy" environment that feels like the middle ages, it can be pseudo-futuristic or it can have a semi-steampunk vibe to it.  That enviornment isn't what makes a Final Fantasy game a Final Fantasy game. What makes is a Final Fantasy game is more the common tropes that run throughout *all of the games.

To say that Final Fantasy VII deviates from the traditional model just doesn't seem true to me.  Sure, it's a very modern world compared to most of the former games, but every world for every game often feels so different, seeing pseudo-modern, semi-dystopian world makes since as a Final Fantasy world as any other location.

*The last Final Fantasy game I played in the series was 12, and I only put a few hours into it.  I got busy and never went back.  I have no clue if future iterations (or the online games) deviated from these traditions, but I do know that if some of them have dropped, others have re-emerged like character races that are now consistent.

Edited December 13, 2020 by RH

[Sumer | 221]

2 hours ago, MagusSmurf said:

Praising FFVI in posts in which FFVIi is bashed for deviating from the series has me kind of confused. FFVI had already pretty much junked a lot of the then-traditional RPG settings and trappings before FFVII did, the main part of what FFVII added to that was the 3D stuff and all the minor mini games. And then praising FFIX...Its setting is more like the older games the game is a tribute to but the pacing, storytelling, and characters are clearly more like FFViI’s.

I liked 6, but I don't generally praise it like others do.  My favorite of all of them to this day is 2/4.  That game will always get praise from me.  Like @Tanookimentioned above, the story just flows better and the mechanics derived from Ultima and Wizardry still persist in it.  Above all, it didn't (and still doesn't) feel "JRPG" to me...it still feels like a Western CRPG with some Japanese "foibles" (Chocobos, Airships, etc.) to it.  

Someone mentioned above that FF7 is where the story starts to go off the rails in typical JRPG fashion.  I actually think it started happening somewhat in FF6 (Killer Clowns from Outer Space) and I remember telling myself at the time, "Hmm, this is decent game, but something just seems off from what we got in FF 2(4)."  And then FF7 hit and I stopped with the franchise mostly, until I gave 10 a try and disliked that one too after a few hours.

My preference will always be Western RPGs, whether they be old school CRPGs (Ultima) or modern ones (Mass Effect, Skyrim).  I guess I just relate to those better.

But now, I seriously would like to give FF9 a try one of these days.  Maybe after the holidays!

Edited December 13, 2020 by Sumer

[ScaryD | 244]

I am more a fan of Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy VI. This was a good game but myself personally I would only give it a 7. I have returned to other games of the series numerous times but I rarely pop this one in and play it all the way through which is the sign of a great RPG.

[Tanooki | 4,958]

8 hours ago, Sumer said:

I liked 6, but I don't generally praise it like others do.  My favorite of all of them to this day is 2/4.  That game will always get praise from me.  Like @Tanookimentioned above, the story just flows better and the mechanics derived from Ultima and Wizardry still persist in it.  Above all, it didn't (and still doesn't) feel "JRPG" to me...it still feels like a Western CRPG with some Japanese "foibles" (Chocobos, Airships, etc.) to it. 

But now, I seriously would like to give FF9 a try one of these days.  Maybe after the holidays!

Same here I prefer FF4(2US) far more than any of the others, and really having been gifted with the opportunity back in the mid 90s to be on the original translation/test team for FF5 that SoM2Freak did I learned that game back and forward and completed it a couple times and I'd put that one second to FF4.  FF6 I'd call the weakest link in the SNES chain and I too don't get all the suckup moments it gets either.  While I don't care for or about western RPGs nor want to bother touching Ultima or Wizardry, FF has this 5 game feeling to me that just went hit-miss (more hit still though notably) with FF6 and took a hard slide ever since mostly.  It's why I too lost most interest in the franchise.  You really do need to play 9 and understand why I said it feels like the SNES generation reborn.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,641]

In the words of @Gloves

"Imagine liking FF4 more than FF6" 

 

I kid.  But that's a debate for another day.

[Gloves | 11,891]

1 minute ago, Reed Rothchild said:

In the words of @Gloves

"Imagine liking FF4 more than FF6" 

 

I kid.  But that's a debate for another day.

You'd have to be both blind and insane.

[DefaultGen | 5,506]

9 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

In the words of @Gloves

"Imagine liking FF4 more than FF6" 

 

I kid.  But that's a debate for another day.

@Johnny come out of lurking and tell us how you feel about this.

[Gloves | 11,891]

Just now, DefaultGen said:

@Johnny come out of lurking and tell us how you feel about this.

Opinion irrelevant.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,641]

1 minute ago, DefaultGen said:

@Johnny come out of lurking and tell us how you feel about this.

Color me intrigued!