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Game Debate #27: Final Fantasy VII (1997)


Reed Rothchild

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54 members have voted

  1. 1. Rate based on your own personal preferences

    • 10/10 - One of your absolute very favorite games of all time.
    • 9/10 - Killer fucking game. Everyone should play it.
    • 8/10 - Great game. Maybe one of the best released that year.
    • 7/10 - Very good game, but not quite great.
    • 6/10 - Pretty good. You might enjoy occasionally playing it.
    • 5/10 - It's okay, but maybe not something you'll go out of your way to play.
    • 4/10 - Meh. There's plenty of better alternatives to this.
    • 3/10 - Not a very good game.
      0
    • 2/10 - Not your cup of tea at all. Some people might like this, but you are not one of them.
    • 1/10 - Horrible game in every way.
      0
    • 0/10 - The Desert Bus of painful experiences. You'd rather shove an icepick in your genitals than play this.
      0
    • Never played it, but you're interested.
    • Never played it, never will.


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1 hour ago, MagusSmurf said:

The earliest well-known Japanese Tactical RPG is the original Fire Emblem from 1990, which was an attempt by Intelligent Systems to put more of an RPG spin on their previous strategy game Famicom Wars from 1988, which seems pretty sensible in light of how popular Dragon Quest III was that year. Famicom Wars came out only two months after Pool of Radiance so I kinda doubt the Gold Box games had any real influence on Japanese developers.

Yeah, I knew Fire Emblem had a release that was probably a little earlier than Shining Force.

Both development spurs (Gold Box and Famicom Wars) would have been parallel attempts to mechanize tabletop gaming.

Though the Gold Box games are quite a bit better than any of the console attempts at that style of combat, IMO. (with the exception of FFT -- though even there, the combat isn't on the scale some of the epic battles in the Gold Box games, and the party management can get fairly tedious once you have access to the advanced classes like Calculators)

 

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27 minutes ago, Amermoe said:

FFXIII did that for me. Only FF game I didn't finish, and was the last I ever played. I begrudgingly grinded through X-2, as much as I didn't want to, and did eventually finish it. I wanted to like XII and it had its moments but was a very forgettable experience. FFX was ok, it could've been much better.

Not sure what you're talking about when it comes to IX and VIII though, those games were some of the best in the series...

I was barely able to finish FFX, for how much I disliked the underwater rugby minigame, and for how grating some of the characters were, so it was my last FF game.  (I skipped FF8 entirely, though -- owned it, but only ever played through the first disc -- completely dislikable cast, and a setting that the basically the opposite of anything I would want from a game called "Final Fantasy")

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1 hour ago, arch_8ngel said:

I was barely able to finish FFX, for how much I disliked the underwater rugby minigame, and for how grating some of the characters were, so it was my last FF game.  (I skipped FF8 entirely, though -- owned it, but only ever played through the first disc -- completely dislikable cast, and a setting that the basically the opposite of anything I would want from a game called "Final Fantasy")

1 and 2 were very generic games, no plot whatsoever but enjoyable nonetheless for what they were. 3 was similar to 1 and 2, with some plot, albeit very thin and slightly better gameplay. IV to me is where Final Fantasy actually began, it told a good story with memorable characters, and had deep gameplay, with V continuing in the same tradition but not exactly innovating much. VI took it a step further in every aspect, gameplay, plot, characters, graphics, music, an overall great game.

VII was the crowning jewel of the series, in my opinion best plot of the series (feel free to disagree), most memorable and iconic characters and villains of the series, greatest soundtrack, awesome side quests and min games, and to this day I consider it to have one of the best battle systems in a JRPG, period, maybe behind only Xenogears.

VIII is my all time favorite FF - my personal opinion, one I recognize not many will share. The story resonated with me at the time, and I deeply related to the characters (mainly Squall, Rinoa, Seifer, Quistis and Laguna - even Edea), their struggles, emotions, and psychology - again it's a personal connection, and for that will always remain dear to me regardless of its shortcomings. The junction system wasn't as bad as people made it out to be, but certainly not the greatest battle system, I was very disappointed that gear was eliminated in favor of only weapons and stat augmentation through magic. Summons were beautiful and epic, and I really enjoyed the art direction and realistic character models. Oh and the Liebri Fatlai intro...absolutely epic - one of the best in video game history, certainly for the PS1.

I loved IX for its simplistic throwback world and light hearted story. Gameplay and music was also amazing. Many people consider this their favorite FF and I can see why. My biggest gripe with IX was the character models, and I couldn't relate at all to Zidane, which knocked it down a notch for me, but still a great game.

X is how should I say this....complicated. The battle system was very innovative, and they managed to do something that at the time felt impossible and that was to take turn-based battles and make it work for next-gen gaming. It was fast paced, cinematic, every character had their specialization so it didn't feel boring. The story was interesting, but dragged on near the end. The main villain was not very memorable. the introduction of voice acting was a plus, and I felt they did well on their first try. mini games were ok, blitzball was meh, it was an ok distraction. didn't like that gear was again eliminated in favor of accessories and weapons. Story was a little linear, but that didn't detract to much for me. It was a good game, but Tidus wasn't a great character, and I felt there were things that could've been improved in the battle system.

XII was ok, it wasn't bad, it felt like an MMO with very thin plot, and mainly just open ended exploration. was enjoyable for what it was, but forgettable. Not really what I'm looking for in a final fantasy game.

XIII was bad in every way imaginable, combat was completely ruined for me, characters were very poor. writing was cheesy, summons were mechanical, I mean it really sucked the fun out of it for me, too many changes, just gutted the series for me. Then they made 2 more sequels of the same, and an action RPG with XV. pretty much was it for me with Final Fantasy, which is a shame because it was my favorite RPG series.

Overall VIII>VII>VI>IX>IV>V>X>XII>III>I>II

Edited by Amermoe
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52 minutes ago, Amermoe said:

I stand by my statement. 🧐

So often do politicians, and I think we know how that often ends.  FF1 had a story, FF2 had more of a story just a very wonky largely hated experience system.  Each one the story got more progressively detailed than the last, but there never was a lack of a story and if you believe so, well you know.

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1 minute ago, Amermoe said:

I have one simple question; tell me the name of ONE party member and give me a little on his/her background. 

Go on.

That's your basis for being non-existent?  That's weak dude.  The whole point of that first game was to create your own party from scratch names and all.  It still had a cohesive story chained by various events town to town, castle to castle that drew you around the world to eventually evolve, then take down Chaos.  Might as well call any game with unnamed players lacking story which is bogus.

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On 12/11/2020 at 8:02 AM, Sumer said:

I gave it a 2.  Yep, hate on me, but at least I didn't give it a 1, because I know many love the game.

But, this game ruined FF for me.  As a 40-something, I grew up playing the Ultimas, Wizardrys, and the old school FFs that were Japanese love letters to those two game series.  We already talked about why I hate FF7 in another thread ("Highly Acclaimed Games--that you just don't like!" thread), so you can go over there and see why.

I think the only other person who may agree with this low of a rating will be @Tanooki!  😄

It wasn't for me either, although I went from giving it a 4 to bumping it to a 5, as the gameplay itself was fairly decent, even if I was bored out of my skull with the story, characters, etc.  I grew up playing a lot of the classic RPGs as well and the various SSI games will always be a gold standard to me.  Friends raved about it when it came out, I saw some of what they were playing and still didn't get it, bought a copy of my own when I got a PS1 and still never got interested enough in it to do much.  I actually never quite got off the first disc on my playthrough, although I've seen just about everything in the game at one point or another due to a couple of friends who were totally obsessed (one one PS1 and one on PC).  I've always thought it was really lame that the intro movie that everybody was so wowed by couldn't ever be played non-choppy by the game engine, either on PS1 (PS2/PS3, PSP, etc.) or PC.  Getting stuck with a specific character with a specific background also wasn't my cup of tea--I'd rather be playing a "rogue" outsider who's at best loosely tied to the main plot (witnessing the Emperor's death in Oblivion, incidentally "lucking" into being Dragonborn in Skyrim, etc.) and form my own ideas of where I came from, what my motivations are, etc.

One thing I can definitely say, though, is that I can nearly always pick out who played games on a PC or console first/primarily how they feel about this game, as it seems like it's constantly console gamers' first "real" RPG experience, which imprints it on them as being the gold standard despite there being games which came before and after which are arguably better.  Kind of like with Goldeneye for N64 in regard to how people feel about FPS games--those who are all about that game are nearly always console folks, while folks who reminisce first about Doom, Duke3D, etc., first tend to be PC folks.  And before somebody tries to discredit my thoughts as a "PC master race" argument (as happened in the last of these posts I commented on), I had access to a PC before I had my NES and SNES and loved those and owned (and played) more than my fair share of PS1 era games, so my thoughts here definitely aren't that.  I don't dislike this game because it's a console game (especially since it also released for the PC), but simply because it's not nearly as compelling as folks who were first exposed to RPGs through it make out.  The gameplay isn't bad, but the engine isn't nearly as powerful and well written/tuned as it needs to be given the content it's trying to push out (especially visible in the always stuttering opening animation).  Just my $0.02.

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To be fair Dragon Quest also had a very weak story. but the second and later games had a silent protagonist, with the rest of the cast fleshed out. Character development in my opinion is central to any story driven narrative, you take that element out and the end product is broken.

Yes FF1 had 'A' story, albeit an incredibly weak one more akin to fetch quests than an actual plot - like a certain Nintendo game that comes to mind... I'm not knocking the game, I actually enjoyed it. But its value was more in its combat, exploration, and customization, or innovation for its time, not for its story. As were many NES and earlier games for that time. Back then games were more about gameplay and fun. Not sure how anyone can argue that.

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28 minutes ago, Amermoe said:

I have one simple question; tell me the name of ONE party member and give me a little on his/her background. 

Go on.

Warrior of Light. One of four heroes that was chosen by the crystals—be it by a prophecy, a will, or by fate—to embark on the dangerous journey to fight evil or restore balance to the world. 😎

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2 minutes ago, FenrirZero said:

Warrior of Light. One of four heroes that was chosen by the crystals—be it by a prophecy, a will, or by fate—to embark on the dangerous journey to fight evil or restore balance to the world.

Mine was named Jimmy the white mage - he hailed from...I forget, but he was one of 4 heroes chosen by the crystals to fight evil and restore balance to the world. At least that part we have in common.😐

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9 hours ago, Amermoe said:

I have one simple question; tell me the name of ONE party member and give me a little on his/her background. 

Go on.

Not having a pre-named cast of player characters is NOT the same as lacking a story.

The vast majority of the best console and CRPGs do NOT have prenamed player-characters.

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9 hours ago, Tanooki said:

That's your basis for being non-existent?  That's weak dude.  The whole point of that first game was to create your own party from scratch names and all.  It still had a cohesive story chained by various events town to town, castle to castle that drew you around the world to eventually evolve, then take down Chaos.  Might as well call any game with unnamed players lacking story which is bogus.

Exactly -- where is people's imagination nowadays?  

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3 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

Not having a pre-named cast of player characters is NOT the same as lacking a story.

The vast majority of the best console and CRPGs do NOT have prenamed player-characters.

I would even go so far as to say that it may actually strengthen the story to provide your own name...as it becomes YOUR story.  But yes, FF1 had a story, and I appreciated it much more than the modern JRPGs that, in my opinion, have "stories" that typically don't make any sense to me.

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20 minutes ago, Sumer said:

I would even go so far as to say that it may actually strengthen the story to provide your own name...as it becomes YOUR story.  But yes, FF1 had a story, and I appreciated it much more than the modern JRPGs that, in my opinion, have "stories" that typically don't make any sense to me.

Yeah, for a kid that wants to see themselves in the game, FF1 is great with building your own party with characters that aren't burdened by some of the more modern FF storytelling that I think is generally just really really bad and overwrought.

Your player characters are YOUR player characters diving into the larger world and on a quest.

The PS1 re-release of FF1 is the best game in the series, IMO, since it cleans up the presentation, resolves some of the broken mechanics, but maintains the flavor and sense of wonder of the original.

 

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16 hours ago, Amermoe said:

Mine was named Jimmy the white mage - he hailed from...I forget, but he was one of 4 heroes chosen by the crystals to fight evil and restore balance to the world. At least that part we have in common.😐

Honestly, I used what a Wiki referenced, which was what Square Enix uses for that game. When I visited their 30th Anniversary art gallery in Roppongi they put more detail in every game after that. Which was fine since the last gallery offered a sneak preview to Final Fantasy VII Remake. And original artwork for the original game. Which resulted in me having a very nice solo V-Day in 2018. 😁

Plus the game is nothing more than Square's share of the 'introduction to the JRPG market' at the end of the 1980s. Going beyond that point is just one of my means of wanting to do a TRPG campaign despite the lack of interest from Square Enix. So my best suggestions (and choices) are Sword World, Log Horizon, and Dark Souls (if I want to do one in 2021). 😩

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9 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

Not having a pre-named cast of player characters is NOT the same as lacking a story.

The vast majority of the best console and CRPGs do NOT have prenamed player-characters.

I really think many of you are missing the point. you can have a story centered around 'you' the player, and you can name your characters any name - if I'm not mistaken I believe every FF allows to you name your own characters. That in itself does not detract from a well written story. But if every character in your party is generic "X" class, with no background information, no distinction between other characters and in fact is a clone copy of every other member, no history or explanation other than "you have been chosen by the crystals" without answering the how, when, why then as a narrative it falls flat.

If I have to use my imagination to fill the gaps in the story, then there really isn't much there to begin with...

In my opinion, the game doesn't need a good story to be enjoyable. It is a good game, and has other redeeming qualities. I would play it over plenty of modern games. It is iconic, and the beginning to what I consider the greatest and my most favorite RPG franchise. Would I have enjoyed it more if it had some kind of proper narrative, yes, because that's what I look for most in RPGs. I want to be told a good story. Gameplay is a close second, and graphics last.

On another note, you brought up something interesting in your other post and I think it's the reason why there seems to be a disconnect. For me, I never wanted to 'be' the hero, I always rather see and hear the journeys and stories of heroes. Which I think is the reason why I hate playing first person games. But I know for some people it's the other way around. I had this discussion with my brother some years back, who is a big first-person buff, and he argues that in terms of immersion nothing is better than first person games. I always just laugh and say, the last thing I want is to actually be the character in the story, I just want to see the character live and watch how they react to the world around them.

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1 hour ago, FenrirZero said:

When I visited their 30th Anniversary art gallery in Roppongi they put more detail in every game after that. Which was fine since the last gallery offered a sneak preview to Final Fantasy VII Remake. And original artwork for the original game. Which resulted in me having a very nice solo V-Day in 2018. 😁

That's really neat Fenrir, I think I would have enjoyed an event like that.

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1 hour ago, Amermoe said:

On another note, you brought up something interesting in your other post and I think it's the reason why there seems to be a disconnect. For me, I never wanted to 'be' the hero, I always rather see and hear the journeys and stories of heroes. Which I think is the reason why I hate playing first person games. But I know for some people it's the other way around. I had this discussion with my brother some years back, who is a big first-person buff, and he argues that in terms of immersion nothing is better than first person games. I always just laugh and say, the last thing I want is to actually be the character in the story, I just want to see the character live and watch how they react to the world around them.

The escapism of "being" the adventurer is most of the fun of RPGs, IMO.

If I want to see and hear the journey/story of other heroes, I'll watch a movie or read a book. 😛

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51 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

The escapism of "being" the adventurer is most of the fun of RPGs, IMO.

If I want to see and hear the journey/story of other heroes, I'll watch a movie or read a book. 😛

In the purest sense of the term 'role playing', I think I would agree with you. Most western RPGs or computer RPGs would fall under this category. I don't know, when I think of JRPGs, it often seems like a completely different genre to me. Think more anime mixed with philosophy and themes relating to life/death and/or existentialism. Throw in a strategic battle system to test your wits and intelligence and you have a winning formula. That's mostly what draws me into JRPGs. 

I love movies and books that tell a good story, but I also like gameplay. I can get more fun out of a 1 hr turn-based boss battle than I can playing several levels of super mario or Castlevania, knowing that every action I make after every turn has consequence on the outcome of the battle. This is why I love turn-based games, I have the time to think and plan, similar to a game of chess. Tactical-rpgs in general (FF Tactics, Fire Emblem, Vandal Hearts, Tactics Ogre, etc.) are also one my most favorite genre of games to play - those I love more so for the gameplay and not the story.

I've played Baldur's gate 1 and 2 and Neverwinter Nights as well as several other CRPGs in the 90s. Those were very enjoyable games and probably clocked hundreds of hours between them, but overall a very different experience than JRPGs. I would argue there is certainly more immersion in those games, and while you get to roll the dice on stats and which character to chose as your 'Hero', the world of Baldur's gate (and Dungeons & Dragons as a whole) is so fleshed out and detailed, that there is no question with regards to direction of story. You could write several books on the lore alone for those games. I still remember being blown away when I found out Baldur's gate was a 6-CD PC game, that's how deep that game was. You couldn't get anything like that on consoles at the time.

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On 12/16/2020 at 10:22 AM, arch_8ngel said:

Exactly -- where is people's imagination nowadays?  

No kidding, probably ruined by all the easy access free TV and overly realistic video games.  Why have any creativity when it's handed to you so you don't have to you know...err...what's that called again... oh yeah 'think' for yourself. 😄

Like you said FF1 was kind of like a 'my story' era RPG and it was appreciated, a lot in the later 80s into the early 90s.  You could just be the Hero, it wouldn't even default to something or suggestion either.  You either had to use your own, be the hero, or maybe use a friend, or a favorite person or made up character and that gave it a personal if small level of depth to it.  There wasn't so much the forced melodrama, bad scripting, and other tired re-run moment stuff many use as you got into.  Makes me wish I hadn't been off site two days to dig that into the ground myself.

I could not agree more than ever with your last part of that post making that point.  The repaired/refined version of FF1 is utter joy.  The GBA, PS1, Mobile release of FF1 is excellent because of all those tweaks and changes to the combat flow, XP and GP output from battle, and the other broken or poorly thought out badly aged stuff.  FF2 got the similar treatment too so the weird XP system it has from use and abuse isn't so awful or broken but actually works.

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On 12/18/2020 at 9:46 PM, Tanooki said:

I could not agree more than ever with your last part of that post making that point.  The repaired/refined version of FF1 is utter joy.  The GBA, PS1, Mobile release of FF1 is excellent because of all those tweaks and changes to the combat flow, XP and GP output from battle, and the other broken or poorly thought out badly aged stuff.  FF2 got the similar treatment too so the weird XP system it has from use and abuse isn't so awful or broken but actually works.

Is there a ROM hack that manages to fully repair the NES version of FF1?  Or are the notable bugs too deeply ingrained?

(I'm sure there are hacks that manage the "rebalance" aspects of those remakes -- in terms of re-pacing the XP and leveling to cut down on some of the more tedious spots in the game)

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3 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

Is there a ROM hack that manages to fully repair the NES version of FF1?  Or are the notable bugs too deeply ingrained?

(I'm sure there are hacks that manage the "rebalance" aspects of those remakes -- in terms of re-pacing the XP and leveling to cut down on some of the more tedious spots in the game)

Well I didn't know as I never bothered to look, but I just ran over the rom hacking net website and yes it appears a few have made some really solid efforts towards that.  This one looks like it: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/1631/

That one has taken every known fix others made for the game and rolled it all into one solid patch.  And the readme is fairly long and details all the repairs rolled up into it: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/nes/patches/1631readme.txt

Supposedly the only one better is called FF Origins and it was a clean up and repair job done on the PS1 release.

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