Wata - A year and a half after

[Bronty | 187]

2 minutes ago, BriGuy82 said:

I find it very hard to believe that none of those games that were being promoted at those gaming conventions belonged to Dain. 

a) they probably did at some point

b) he sold his collection what at least a year ago?  They may have already belonged to Jeff

c) who cares.   So he lost interest and decided to collecting something else.   If he's not into anymore, he's not into it.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Bronty

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

1 hour ago, BriGuy82 said:

I really don't know if wata is good for the hobby or not, but it clearly caused the downfall of NA. As far as I'm concerned, Dain performed a classic pump and dump. Promoting all that nonsense, having all his shit graded by his buddies and then completely selling out! The website included!

I voted no just for that reason. BTW, welcome to the site Track and Field champ!

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

3 minutes ago, Bronty said:

 

c) who cares.   So he lost interest and decided to collecting something else.   If he's not into anymore, he's not into it.

Exactly.

Dain ran a pretty successful forum in an internet age when forums were no longer particularly popular.

He was into his mid/late-40's and into a much different phase of life than back when he started.

For the amount of effort he put into the site over the years, he owed it to his family to make an exit that paid dividends, given the opportunity.

(and it wouldn't have surprised me if things would have turned out differently if the gamble some of us took on Ecstasy of Order had paid off, rather than just broken even -- since looking back at message traffic with him over the years, that really does seem like a tipping point in interest from him) 

 

 

It was nice while it lasted, but he didn't owe us anything more than we'd already received in benefits of the general forum, at this point.

It sucks that GoCollect screwed the pooch so royally, but any negative outcome is really on them and nobody else.

[Bronty | 187]

41 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

 

(and it wouldn't have surprised me if things would have turned out differently if the gamble some of us took on Ecstasy of Order had paid off, rather than just broken even -- since looking back at message traffic with him over the years, that really does seem like a tipping point in interest from him) 

 

Hey we made money on that LOL.    I never thought I'd get a cent of my money back but I got it all back and a little bit more too I think.

Why do you say it was a tipping point with him?

[BriGuy82 | 768]

45 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I voted no just for that reason. BTW, welcome to the site Track and Field champ!

Thanks, I'm glad I got the notice about this place. I like it. You better slow down on your post count though buddy. You're gonna make arch_8ngel jealous. 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

12 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Hey we made money on that LOL.    I never thought I'd get a cent of my money back but I got it all back and a little bit more too I think.

Why do you say it was a tipping point with him?

Fair enough, we DID do better than strictly "break even" (30% total "dividend, right?) and Dain and I both made a little extra by loaning another $2500 each to the production to get it over the finish line.

So you're right, "break even" wasn't quite fair.

 

I just meant it didn't pull a King of Kong and EXPLODE like we'd all hoped

 

 

EDIT:  in terms of a "tipping point", I just feel like that whole ordeal was a big time and financial investment.  He did part of the festival circuit and attended the production events.  My wife and I did too.  It was a lot of fun, and made for some memorable and unique vacationing.  

As far as Dain, I recall quite a bit of message traffic in those days, and as things wore on and it became increasingly clear that there wasn't going to be a big payoff, and instead a long-tail-slog, it really seemed like that marked a bit of a transition of him "checking out".  Could all be coincidence, of course, because that was also the timeframe of one of his kids being born!  Ha!

But it would be a lie to say we didn't hope for a better financial return on that time!   (and maybe that's where my "break even" mentality comes from -- the "profit" basically covered our trip to the Austin Film Festival and our trip down to the Wilmington NC festival showing)

Edited October 31, 2019 by arch_8ngel

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

1 hour ago, BeaglePuss said:

I think one massive improvement seen here at VGS over NA is the ability to like post. When the constant pumping, and pumping, and pumping was taking place over at NA, it was hard to counter without it coming off as an attack. 

It’s different here though. Now, when someone brings up some objective criticism of WATA, HA, GC, etc, the community responds by giving visible feedback. There’s no need for mudslinging now, and the collective majority can see their opinion voiced by giving a simple “thumbs up” of sorts. 

You’re going to see some of the aggressive pro-HA rhetoric here still, but you’ll notice a general lack of approval (outside of the outspoken minority) in the visible feedback. You’ve already seen that in this very thread. 

I think it’s incredibly important to focus on the positive with this new site, but I’m extremely grateful that the feedback system has been implemented to show where others stand. I’m also grateful that NA and GC still exist. It gives some of the more aggressive and outspoken supporters a great place to discuss and promote HA and the like without much, if any, pushback.  

I agree, the feedback thing is a good add. But I’m not really sure about the whole WATA vs not WATA debate in general, because there’s is still plenty of place in both pools. There’s no need for mudslinging because if you’re anti-WATA, great, it really shouldn’t impact you much. If you’re pro-WATA, great, do your WATA thing. We’re really just back at the “games are meant to be played” debate. People arguing for the sake of arguing. 

I guess that’s kinda what message boards are for, to be fair...

Edited October 31, 2019 by ExplodedHamster

[Bronty | 187]

1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said:

Fair enough, we DID do better than strictly "break even" (30% total "dividend, right?) and Dain and I both made a little extra by loaning another $2500 each to the production to get it over the finish line.

So you're right, "break even" wasn't quite fair.

 

I just meant it didn't pull a King of Kong and EXPLODE like we'd all hoped

I honestly had no expectation of it becoming anything like that.   

I mean, it would have been nice but I didn't expect a cent back since the first returns went to the production staff.

I actually felt bad for the director with all the work he put in that he didn't get more - I think he returned more than he should have.

Do you mean to say that Dain (and/or you) had different expectations?

 

[Bronty | 187]

Just now, ExplodedHamster said:

I agree, the feedback thing is a good add. But I’m not really sure about the whole WATA vs not WATA debate in general, because there’s is still plenty of place in both pools. There’s no need for mudslinging because if you’re anti-WATA, great, it really shouldn’t impact you much. If you’re pro-WATA, great, do your WATA thing. 

We’re really just back at the “games are meant to be played” debate. People arguing for the sake of arguing. 

I guess that’s kinda what message boards are for, to be fair...

Sir - great post.   That's really all there is to say.   

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

11 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I honestly had no expectation of it becoming anything like that.   

I mean, it would have been nice but I didn't expect a cent back since the first returns went to the production staff.

I actually felt bad for the director with all the work he put in that he didn't get more - I think he returned more than he should have.

Do you mean to say that Dain (and/or you) had different expectations?

 

Quite a few involved parties had decent hopes around it (though nothing astronomical obviously -- but a 5-10 bagger didn't seem outlandish at the time), since Adam (the director) had managed to make a decent profit previously on an EXTREMELY obscure documentary -- that incidentally my brother-in-law had seen and had high-praise for, which kind of locked-in my wife and my interest.

 

But yeah, Adam, Robin, and Vince definitely put in a TON of unpaid effort on the gig.

 

And the rest of us got some really cool stories and meet-and-greets out of it.

It was a truly novel experience to go to the Austin Film Festival and have people see our badges and excitedly ask about "the Tetris movie".

 

So we definitely all got our money's-worth.

 

The reality, though is that the movie debuted a year too late to get the "easy" Netflix money that a lot of lesser (in my opinion) video/arcade documentaries pulled in.

And (fortunately for the investors, I guess, but UNFORTUNATELY for the director/producers) a couple of years too early to tap into the Kickstarter craze.

Definitely a sort of "moment in time" that things shook out the way that they did.

 

EDIT: and it all sounds a little crazy in retrospect, I guess, but that "easy" Netflix money apparently all revolved around one buyer at Netflix and that well dried up literally a month or two before our release.  It was really unfortunate timing.

(though we did crack the top 10 for our release day on iTunes! ;))

Edited October 31, 2019 by arch_8ngel

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

1 hour ago, arch_8ngel said:

Could be.

I definitely remember comic-series collectible cards being a thing for awhile then, too.

(one of my friends had the complete set of X-Men cards, and I remember those packs being EXPENSIVE )

That might have been Upper Deck; everything they put out seemed expensive compared to the rest of the hobby at first.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

1 minute ago, captmorgandrinker said:

That might have been Upper Deck; everything they put out seemed expensive compared to the rest of the hobby at first.

That was it!  I remember having one or two packs of Upper Deck (a friend of mine and his brother had damn-near the complete set -- though they were HEAVY into baseball cards and even had a Beckett subscription).

They were maybe $1.25-$2/pack in a time that the cheap red packs (Diamond, maybe?) were $0.25, and Topps still came with gum!

The quality of the Marvel comics cards was really good (they might have been Upper Deck, as well).

So anyway, the leap to $2-$3/pack for MtG didn't seem too bad after that!

[doner24 | 1,195]

I think the X-men cards were Fleer Ultra, which was pretty much the first direct competitor to Upper Deck as far as quality goes. 

[BeaglePuss | 80]

22 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

I agree, the feedback thing is a good add. But I’m not really sure about the whole WATA vs not WATA debate in general, because there’s is still plenty of place in both pools. There’s no need for mudslinging because if you’re anti-WATA, great, it really shouldn’t impact you much. If you’re pro-WATA, great, do your WATA thing. We’re really just back at the “games are meant to be played” debate. People arguing for the sake of arguing. 

I guess that’s kinda what message boards are for, to be fair...

Gotta disagree with you there. I’m certainly not in the “Games are meant to be played Camp,” and am certain most others aren’t either. 

Most of the resentment stems from questionable ethics/optics, and the fact that GC and related parties literally bought our home burnt it to the ground. We had to literally build another forum.  While WATA didn’t spearhead the movement, a lot of us believe they played a role in what ultimately became VGS.

While your post is well thought out and polite, it really missed the point of the majority of the pushback. 

Again, not everyone here is anti or pro WATA, and this site is ultimately the greatest “consequence” that could have ever happen. I can all but guarantee you’ll see a lot less excitement regarding anything related to WATA, GC, and HA here than you did over at the new NA. 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

13 minutes ago, doner24 said:

I think the X-men cards were Fleer Ultra, which was pretty much the first direct competitor to Upper Deck as far as quality goes. 

I think you're right.  Fleer Ultra were the other very-high-end collector cards of the time... probably even more expensive than Upper Deck, in general.

[Bronty | 187]

26 minutes ago, BeaglePuss said:

Gotta disagree with you there. I’m certainly not in the “Games are meant to be played Camp,” and am certain most others aren’t either. 

Most of the resentment stems from questionable ethics/optics, and the fact that GC and related parties literally bought our home burnt it to the ground. We had to literally build another forum.  While WATA didn’t spearhead the movement, a lot of us believe they played a role in what ultimately became VGS.

While your post is well thought out and polite, it really missed the point of the majority of the pushback. 

Again, not everyone here is anti or pro WATA, and this site is ultimately the greatest “consequence” that could have ever happen. I can all but guarantee you’ll see a lot less excitement regarding anything related to WATA, GC, and HA here than you did over at the new NA. 

I mean, if that's what you want to tell yourself.

Some guy with a sealed killer tomatoes or anything else that they can do much better than they expected with by getting it graded and sending it to HA is not going to give a flying fuck about 'questionable ethics/optics' as you see them.   And the guy without the ability to take advantage of that is going to cry foul.

This topic divides people, unfortunately, but its the money that is the divide, not the ethics.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Bronty

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

10 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

I think you're right.  Fleer Ultra were the other very-high-end collector cards of the time... probably even more expensive than Upper Deck, in general.

I do recall that at the time.

I mean, they can't all be as cheap as Pro-Set!

[doner24 | 1,195]

2 minutes ago, captmorgandrinker said:

I do recall that at the time.

I mean, they can't all be as cheap as Pro-Set!

Pacific Cards thought otherwise!

[Bronty | 187]

5 minutes ago, captmorgandrinker said:

I do recall that at the time.

I mean, they can't all be as cheap as Pro-Set!

I liked Pro Set!   Nice clean layout!

[BeaglePuss | 80]

8 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I mean, if that's what you want to tell yourself.

Some guy with a sealed killer tomatoes or anything else that they can do much better than they expected with by getting it graded and sending it to HA is not going to give a flying fuck about 'questionable ethics/optics' as you see them.   And the guy without the ability to take advantage of that is going to cry foul.

This topic divides people, unfortunately, but its the money that is the divide, not the ethics.

 

It’s not that I disagree with what you’re saying. It’s that majority of these boards disagree with what you’re saying. 

[Bronty | 187]

16 minutes ago, BeaglePuss said:

It’s not that I disagree with what you’re saying. It’s that majority of these boards disagree with what you’re saying. 

No they don’t.   The majority thinks ‘wata is not good for the hobby.’   That’s fine.   But when they find that sealed killer tomatoes or sealed Mario bros  in their closet they are mailing out a package right quick my friend.  

Those people you are telling me are so concerned with ethics were tripping all over themselves to sell their cib stickers!  At prices they would have called unethical six months previous!   

Edited October 31, 2019 by Bronty

[Nightowljrm | 72]

This thread has been an interesting read. 

As for my opinion, I'm torn... I don't like seeing things as inflated as they are, but when Wata came onto the scene, I was and still am glad there's competition for VGA. Their transparency (at least at the time?) was appreciated and I felt like they were more knowledgeable than the unknown figures behind the curtain for VGA. I hate to be a fence-sitter, but I feel like both perspectives here are pretty valid.

Regarding sealed collecting in general, I don't collect sealed games, but I have a few that I happened upon throughout the years, and there's one I actually sought out, a sealed Sky Kid, just for my Sky Kid collection because I love that game. (I bought it from @Bronty, actually!) That's the only sealed collecting I'll ever do, getting sealed copies of games I really love, kind of as a "tribute" and a way to collect more for that particular game.

Kinda wish the poll had a Neutral option, as that's where I'm mostly at right now. I'll probably keep lurking in the thread, I'm sure I can be swayed. 

[Bronty | 187]

3 minutes ago, Nightowljrm said:

This thread has been an interesting read. 

As for my opinion, I'm torn... I don't like seeing things as inflated as they are, but when Wata came onto the scene, I was and still am glad there's competition for VGA. Their transparency (at least at the time?) was appreciated and I felt like they were more knowledgeable than the unknown figures behind the curtain for VGA. I hate to be a fence-sitter, but I feel like both perspectives here are pretty valid.

Regarding sealed collecting in general, I don't collect sealed games, but I have a few that I happened upon throughout the years, and there's one I actually sought out, a sealed Sky Kid, just for my Sky Kid collection because I love that game. (I bought it from @Bronty, actually!) That's the only sealed collecting I'll ever do, getting sealed copies of games I really love, kind of as a "tribute" and a way to collect more for that particular game.

Kinda wish the poll had a Neutral option, as that's where I'm mostly at right now. I'll probably keep lurking in the thread, I'm sure I can be swayed. 

Great!  Hope you are still enjoying the SK

[BeaglePuss | 80]

2 minutes ago, Bronty said:

No they don’t.   The majority thinks ‘wata is not good for the hobby.’   That’s fine.   But when they find that sealed killer tomatoes or sealed Mario bros  in their closet they are mailing out a package right quick my friend.  

I mean, did you NOTICE how quickly people were tripping all over themselves to sell their cib stickers?   

Everything you’ve typed is right, but you’ve still completely missed why people are not fans of WATA (but more-so GC and HA). 

WATA invited the Devil into our house, and fanned the flames as it burnt to the ground.  

The resentment HERE doesn’t stem from the fact people made a thousand bucks for Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. I’ve profited from the New NA for sure. 

The resentment stems from the insufferable shills and constant pumpers trying to capitalize on ignorant comic collectors, and the fact that the guy that helped make it all possible ruined out on home. That type of behavior is going to be less prevalent here because the community overwhelmingly disagrees with it. 

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

1 hour ago, BeaglePuss said:

Gotta disagree with you there. I’m certainly not in the “Games are meant to be played Camp,” and am certain most others aren’t either. 

Most of the resentment stems from questionable ethics/optics, and the fact that GC and related parties literally bought our home burnt it to the ground. We had to literally build another forum.  While WATA didn’t spearhead the movement, a lot of us believe they played a role in what ultimately became VGS.

While your post is well thought out and polite, it really missed the point of the majority of the pushback. 

Again, not everyone here is anti or pro WATA, and this site is ultimately the greatest “consequence” that could have ever happen. I can all but guarantee you’ll see a lot less excitement regarding anything related to WATA, GC, and HA here than you did over at the new NA. 

Ehhhhh, NA was bordering on dying before GC ever came in. NA had a handful of threads related to WATA in the forum itself, so I don’t really see WATA as being the catalyst for the slowdown there at all. People just weren’t discussing other things anymore to begin with. Can only have the same debate so many times, plus people have kids, use Social Media instead, etc. 

This forum is already a massive upgrade from what NA has been for years, mainly because it’s mobile-friendly.