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Wata - A year and a half after


TheBiRD

Wata - A year and a half after  

157 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Wata a good thing for the hobby?

    • Yes
      42
    • No
      116


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16 minutes ago, epiclotus said:

It's worth noting that almost every hobby ends up going this route.  As soon as you have items in your hobby that can be seen as investments, along come those catering to that crowd.  Services like WATA, VGA/AFA, CGC, etc., are all about "protecting your investment".  

 

Yes.  Now people usually come to these kinds of discussions with pretty entrenched views and IMO, as I said earlier, at its root all collecting is materialistic folly.

That being said - everything is always changing.   Nothing stays the same and as a hobby video game collecting is at a point where it either has to get bigger now or slowly fade away.   I'd find it depressing if NES collecting ended up like atari collecting.   I'd rather it got more attention and stuck around for a long time and stayed fresh as a result, even if that comes with some negatives.

 

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Very few people have taken issue with the new collectors spending more money on things.  The complaints are the obvious conflicts of interest and deceitful tactics the company has used in tandem with all of the parties I have named.

No one cares about someone spending money on a game.  Over inflated sales where buyer/seller/grader/auction house are literally all one in the same is a load of dog shit and people don't have to walk on eggshells pointing out the obvious over here.

Again, when Jim Halperin can be a WATA advisor, a founder of Heritage Auctions, and part buyer of the $100k sale, people take notice.  That's fucked up and on the surface absolutely reads like a marketing ploy that boosts the stock of:

- Heritage Auctions

- WATA

- Owners of early BB games

How do you take it a step further?  Add puff pieces that make it sound like this isn't only normal, but this is just the beginning!  "It's probably the wrong move, to sell, long term" is the perfect quote to stir up ignorant money from deep pocketed comic collectors.  Sure, it's waaaaaay more than historical data has ever shown this game or group of games to sell for, but it's the wrong move long term!  Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuy!!!

Just flip things with a conscience.  These games are clearly valuable, the deceit is obvious and deplorable.

This isn't the only facet of the hobby that's done something similar, it's just the most obvious.

I had an absolutely incredible collection of prototypes.  Imagine if I traded one for a high ticket item to a friend, then used the value of that item to now claim that this proto (and along with it, all my others) are worth mid five-figures?  Imagine if I made sure a bunch of media outlets picked up the story, and talked about my "$XX,XXX prototype changes hands!".  What if I went a step further and made a documentary on protos and how crazy valuable they were and pumped it through the community?  With such a niche like protos, I bet I could have easily convinced the masses that my $2-500 protos were worth tens of thousands.

But...

I just sold them instead.

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It reminds me of the movie Boiler Room.   These WATA investors, Heritage, Go collect... all brainwashing the biggest fish they can into believing the hype.. instead of selling bum stocks they are selling Wata and a new collecting bull run.   I picture them all celebrating after every new Mark is reeled in.  

I see the Wata supporters bash vga with the same talking points over and over, like they all meet up and made a plan now to brainwash new money into this new let’s buy sonics, left Bros, and halos!    

Then there is the multiple news stories created by the people that benefit by the hype of that news story...  Everyone sees right through it. 

Lastly, every time I turn around it’s another Wata fail I hear about.   The latest of which was grading reseals as third party seals with disassembled bottom boxes...
 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Yes.  Now people usually come to these kinds of discussions with pretty entrenched views and IMO, as I said earlier, at its root all collecting is materialistic folly.

That being said - everything is always changing.   Nothing stays the same and as a hobby video game collecting is at a point where it either has to get bigger now or slowly fade away.   I'd find it depressing if NES collecting ended up like atari collecting.   I'd rather it got more attention and stuck around for a long time and stayed fresh as a result, even if that comes with some negatives.

 

It's hard to gauge if there are more collectors entering the hobby than leaving.  Lowering prices would suggest the supply is increasing again, which I assume means more people are unloading collections than starting them, but that's for more educated people than me to suss out.

@Bronty I agree with you, to a point, that collecting is the height of materialism, but I think you're ignoring how emotions can play into collecting.  Given that games contain an experiential component, though, and are not simply tchotchkes to set on a shelf, some collections can be multidimensional.  That guy buying an NES Barbie cart with no intent to play it is buying a tchotchke, but someone buying a Super Mario Bros. 3 cart because they want to play it, have it to look at, and wax nostalgic whenever they see it is buying both a collectible and something linked to the human experience.  The NES Barbie cart may even be looked at in a different light, where an NES cart set is the goal, and Barbie merely a piece of the puzzle.  One doesn't need to appreciate every piece of a puzzle to find satisfaction and enjoyment out of the finished whole.  

I would argue that true materialism is buying something simply because you can, and show it off simply because you have it.  When items become status symbols rather than part of meaningful actions in life, then the acquiring thereof is materialistic.  

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29 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I'd find it depressing if NES collecting ended up like atari collecting.   I'd rather it got more attention and stuck around for a long time and stayed fresh as a result, even if that comes with some negatives.

 

Oh man that’s the truth.   

Atari is actually fun to collect now though because it’s all so cheap again...    10 years ago it was where nes was now.  

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8 minutes ago, MrMark0673 said:

I had an absolutely incredible collection of prototypes.  Imagine if I traded one for a high ticket item to a friend, then used the value of that item to now claim that this proto (and along with it, all my others) are worth mid five-figures?  Imagine if I made sure a bunch of media outlets picked up the story, and talked about my "$XX,XXX prototype changes hands!".  What if I went a step further and made a documentary on protos and how crazy valuable they were and pumped it through the community?  With such a niche like protos, I bet I could have easily convinced the masses that my $2-500 protos were worth tens of thousands.

But...

I just sold them instead.

That makes you a decent person, but the people doing this probably see you as a chump who missed his golden opportunity.

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8 minutes ago, epiclotus said:

That makes you a decent person, but the people doing this probably see you as a chump who missed his golden opportunity.

Maybe, but I wasn't some pillar of morality.  I just was transparent when I jumped on some (what I perceived at least) inexcusable hype.

When I sold my NWC for $17,500 (at the time a record) I told people that I was jumping on the hype train, striking while the iron was hot, and putting the cash into real estate. 

Same thing when I VGA'd protos to sell.  I have no idea who was authenticating protos at VGA, I knew what I had was real.  For some reason though, buyers saw the VGA seal of approval and started paying over the top prices.

I literally said at one point "VGA putting their reputation on the line for this and any other game they grade gives buyers peace of mind and nets sellers thousands of extra dollars. When it comes to this hobby, the only thing I like more than historical preservation is making Gorillions. VGA helps me do that."

I wasn't making up anything, or trying to do shit behind the scenes to turn the market.  I put games up with authentic descriptions on Ebay for $.99 (Edit: at times high BIN with best offer) and people grossly overpaid for them because it was in a VGA case.  Trust me, I LOVED making money on games, no shame in my game.  I wasn't about to do shady underhanded stuff to get there though.  My record is as clear as my conscience and I sleep like a baby as a result.

Edited by MrMark0673
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32 minutes ago, MrMark0673 said:

Very few people have taken issue with the new collectors spending more money on things.  The complaints are the obvious conflicts of interest and deceitful tactics the company has used in tandem with all of the parties I have named.

No one cares about someone spending money on a game.  Over inflated sales where buyer/seller/grader/auction house are literally all one in the same is a load of dog shit and people don't have to walk on eggshells pointing out the obvious over here.

Again, when Jim Halperin can be a WATA advisor, a founder of Heritage Auctions, and part buyer of the $100k sale, people take notice.  That's fucked up and on the surface absolutely reads like a marketing ploy that boosts the stock of:

- Heritage Auctions

- WATA

- Owners of early BB games

How do you take it a step further?  Add puff pieces that make it sound like this isn't only normal, but this is just the beginning!  "It's probably the wrong move, to sell, long term" is the perfect quote to stir up ignorant money from deep pocketed comic collectors.  Sure, it's waaaaaay more than historical data has ever shown this game or group of games to sell for, but it's the wrong move long term!  Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuy!!!

Just flip things with a conscience.  These games are clearly valuable, the deceit is obvious and deplorable.

This isn't the only facet of the hobby that's done something similar, it's just the most obvious.

I had an absolutely incredible collection of prototypes.  Imagine if I traded one for a high ticket item to a friend, then used the value of that item to now claim that this proto (and along with it, all my others) are worth mid five-figures?  Imagine if I made sure a bunch of media outlets picked up the story, and talked about my "$XX,XXX prototype changes hands!".  What if I went a step further and made a documentary on protos and how crazy valuable they were and pumped it through the community?  With such a niche like protos, I bet I could have easily convinced the masses that my $2-500 protos were worth tens of thousands.

But...

I just sold them instead.

Like you said, you were no pillar of morality trying to ‘help the community’ or anyone except yourself (and I have no issue with that).   You made the most you could at the time you decided to sell and as I recall, at the time you flexed pretty hard about about what a real estate mogul you were becoming.   Good.   I hope you do great at it.   But the hating on others and their motivations and the errors in the record as you see it get tiresome.    Never saw you as a hater.   Why start now?

Edited by Bronty
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9 minutes ago, MrMark0673 said:

Maybe, but I wasn't some pillar of morality. 

LOL, making money, even off collectibles, isn't immoral.  The rest of your post, describing being open and up front: that's the part that makes you a moral guy.  Some people tend to equate all profit as some kind of dirty thing, but that's just bunk.  How you make a profit is the determining factor.  

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13 minutes ago, MrMark0673 said:

Maybe, but I wasn't some pillar of morality.  I just was transparent when I jumped on some (what I perceived at least) inexcusable hype.

When I sold my NWC for $17,500 (at the time a record) I told people that I was jumping on the hype train, striking while the iron was hot, and putting the cash into real estate. 

Same thing when I VGA'd protos to sell.  I have no idea who was authenticating protos at VGA, I knew what I had was real.  For some reason though, buyers saw the VGA seal of approval and started paying over the top prices.

I literally said at one point "VGA putting their reputation on the line for this and any other game they grade gives buyers peace of mind and nets sellers thousands of extra dollars. When it comes to this hobby, the only thing I like more than historical preservation is making Gorillions. VGA helps me do that."

I wasn't making up anything, or trying to do shit behind the scenes to turn the market.  I put games up with authentic descriptions on Ebay for $.99 (Edit: at times high BIN with best offer) and people grossly overpaid for them because it was in a VGA case.  Trust me, I LOVED making money on games, no shame in my game.  I wasn't about to do shady underhanded stuff to get there though.  My record is as clear as my conscience and I sleep like a baby as a result.

You also weren't ballooning and manipulating the market yourself, you were riding an inexplicably hot wave.

Just like the outsiders that are hurrying to unload anything sticker sealed black box right now, if somebody is gonna give you stupid money for something there's no reason not to take it.

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9 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Like you said, you were no pillar of morality trying to ‘help the community’ or anyone except yourself (and I have no issue with that).   You made the most you could at the time you decided to sell and as I recall, at the time you flexed pretty hard about about what a real estate mogul you were becoming.   Good.   I hope you do great at it.   But the hating on others and their motivations and the errors in the record as you see it get tiresome.    Never saw you as a hater.   Why start now?

Their methodology, not their motivations.  You missed the entire point of my post.  Literally.  The only point I made.

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I can't speak to the morality of the situation.  That is mostly because I just haven't educated myself on it as I only have one graded game that I bought because it was less than an open copy of that particular game was selling for at the time.  I will say, though, that competition is always good in any space in my opinion.  

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3 hours ago, captmorgandrinker said:

 

Just like the outsiders that are hurrying to unload anything sticker sealed black box right now, if somebody is gonna give you stupid money for something there's no reason not to take it.

Can someone make a pic meme of the super hero sweating with the two buttons where one buttons says "Protect the integrity of the community" and the other says "Steal the marks' money"?

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53 minutes ago, guitarzombie said:

Can someone make a pic meme of the super hero sweating with the two buttons where one buttons says "Protect the integrity of the community" and the other says "Steal the marks' money"?

How would you feel if you started a business, spent 3 years of your life on it, were compensated in no way except through grading (ie NOT compensated by auction results), and had people calling you a thief and saying you weren't worthy of trust.    Its so easy to sling rocks.   (and to commit libel I might add).

You don't have to like it, and you don't have to like Wata, and you don't have to like Deniz.   But words have meanings and so far as I know Deniz is no thief.   Its so easy to be less than careful with what you're saying and its so unfair to the other side.   Whether we are talking Wata, VGA, or Pizza Hut.

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I like Deniz (seriously, I've always liked Deniz), and no one called anyone a thief.  Pointing out the obvious isn't libel Dan, have a snickers.

Indicate anything I said as being objectively untrue and I have no problem changing what I wrote.

Is Jim not a WATA advisor?  Is he not also a founder of Heritage?  Was he also not a member of the buying party of the $100k Mario?  Would that sale not boost the stock of WATA, Heritage, and early sealed games in general?  

What is it exactly that you're taking issue with?

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HA and Wata are two separate issues to be honest. There is plenty of great reading out there about the legal proceeds and sketchiness of HA and Jim. There is absolutely zero doubt he is pumping the market and trying to make a killing. 

As for Wata, they are only get paid paltry peanuts based on volume. They are so inundated and clearly have a rough supply chain at best. Nowhere near efficient and tons of start up cost. I dont think the collusion is as bad as you think from their end. They had to partner with an auction house to legitimize their product, and they used figureheads as advisors for clout. Those figureheads are nothing more than that.

Only thing that bothers me a bit from Wata are all the HA ads in your return package. Its clear they want you to sell what you subbed or are at least trying to entice you there. VGA doesn't remind you incessantly about selling your games.

But yes, materistic goods dont matter at all in the scheme of life. A pure collector will keep everything they own until they die or until extreme financial difficulties. A pure investor holds the item for some amount of time knowing the end goal is to sell. Most people are somewhere in the middle but the new blood in the scene seems heavily skewed to the investment angle. While I do plenty of sales I view myself as more of a collector so I'm not a fan. Does that make me a hypocrite? I have no idea, but I do pride myself on being able to read people and it's clear as day from what I've seen in private dealings.

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I think some people have a hard time separating Wata the company from the speculators. Wata as a company is merely a tool people are using. It’s no different than when I used VGA to maximize my profits on sealed sales. You have to separate the two where applicable tho.

I also believe both Mark and Dan make valid points. They’re both highly intelligent people with differing views. Not a big deal. You have both done a ton for advancing the hobby.

Mark is not saying anything that others aren’t feeling as well. It does come off as disingenuous when the majority of the people adding commentary are profiting from the article in some way. And others, have zero credibility when it comes to the topic at hand. That Launcher article was trash. I’m sorry, but it was. It was poorly written, poorly edited, and used commentary from folks who haveYouTube followers, but zero experience in the topic at hand. It felt slimy. It was just a hype piece poorly disguised as a legitimate article. I expect way more from the Washington Post.  Also, Mark points out some serious appearances of conflict of interest. That’s going to rub people the wrong way.

Dan is right that Deniz is by no means whatsoever a thief, and quite frankly the most experienced person in the article. And yes it means something that Deniz and Kenneth are from the community, and genuinely good guys. I have no problem with Deniz adding commentary as that is his area of expertise. But as a whole it can’t be the same 2 or 3 people talking about it. Deniz is just speaking about what he feels about a topic, or where the hobby is going. Nothing wrong with that. I would have liked to have seen some of the actual sealed experts commenting on the article. Maybe that wasn’t possible? I don’t know.

What I do know, and have been saying for a long time is, whether it be Wata, HA or someone else, other subject matter experts need to be identified. People that that side of the hobby will take seriously. 

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