American Politics / Current Events Thread

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

58 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

society. 
 

What if you were born with both? Like a hermaphrodite. Rare, but it does happen. Or neither, (intersex/ambiguous)? What should those folks be classified as?

Society?

These people have both a penis and a vagina and can impregnate themselves?

i just don’t think biological males should compete against biological females in female sport. People can identify as any gender. I can identify as anything I want.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

1 hour ago, docile tapeworm said:

Society?

These people have both a penis and a vagina and can impregnate themselves?

i just don’t think biological males should compete against biological females in female sport. People can identify as any gender. I can identify as anything I want.

Societal pressure  is the other thing (other than biology) that “determines” sex.  I was answering your question. 
 

And correct, hermaphrodites have both but cannot get themselves pregnant. 
 

So thats my question to you (or anyone else), what is the gender of a hermaphrodite, or someone who is Intersex (no sex organs)? Because they are real and do exist.  Do they play with the boys, or the girls?
 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by MrWunderful

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

Man, you guys are confusing the hell out of something that is really straight forward, but don't worry, I'll enlighten you Sex and gender are not the same thing, so why are you acting as if they are tied at the hip?  Here you go:

# of sexes: 2 (or three, if you want to count hermaphrodites)

# of genders: infinite (depending on how each person wants to identify themselves)

Conclusion: sex is not gender, and gender is not sex!

See, I told you guys it was easy.

PS - Competitive sport should be delineated by the sex at birth of each athlete due to the obvious and distinct physical differences between the development of the male and female bodies.  See!  Also very easy...    Anyone who says otherwise is indirectly advocating for the removal of females from most/all competitive sports (even if they don't know that's what they're saying while they're saying it).

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

44 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Societal pressure  is the other thing (other than biology) that “determines” sex.

No it's not; that's what determines gender.   There's a reason many trans identify as non-binary - it's literally in the name!  Why is that so hard to understand?!?

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

58 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Societal pressure  is the other thing (other than biology) that “determines” sex.  I was answering your question. 
 

And correct, hermaphrodites have both but cannot get themselves pregnant. 
 

So thats my question to you (or anyone else), what is the gender of a hermaphrodite, or someone who is Intersex (no sex organs)? Because they are real and do exist.  Do they play with the boys, or the girls?
 

 

I understand you were answering my question I just didn’t understand the answer. Societal pressure can change your biology?

true human hermaphrodite doesn’t exist, correct?

Edited April 13, 2022 by docile tapeworm

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

10 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

I

true human hermaphrodite doesn’t exist, correct?

Since the structure for the organs starts from a common origin, having a truly full set of both male and female sex organs would probably require you to actually be conjoined male twins where one of them had androgen insensitivity so ended up with a vagina instead of a penis. 

There are definitely a wide range of possible birth defects that result in "ambiguous" combinations of apparent sex organs, though.

[Estil | 1,265]

29 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

PS - Competitive sport should be delineated by the sex at birth of each athlete due to the obvious and distinct physical differences between the development of the male and female bodies.  See!  Also very easy...    Anyone who says otherwise is indirectly advocating for the removal of females from most/all competitive sports (even if they don't know that's what they're saying while they're saying it).

Is that what I did with my proposal?  I mean this is a rather tricky complicated issue (I really feel bad for all the principals, athletic directors, and on up faced with this situation) but I thought my idea at least kinda made sense...  

[OptOut | 8,892]

4 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

What else makes you a man or woman other than biology? 

Well, how you act, how you look, and how other people treat you!

There are tons of things we do as men or women that are nothing to do with our biology, but that contribute to our gender identity.

The whole point of transgenderism is that there's no absolute line between men and women, it's a gradient that has masculine on one side and feminine on the other, and we all fit somewhere in between.

Most biological men cluster around what we call masculine, and there are both social AND biological reasons for that, and most biological women cluster around feminine, again for social AND biological reasons.

But there are in fact many "less-manly" men and "less-womanly" women who aren't even trans but they don't cling so tightly to social expectations of male and female.

So, yes, biology plays a big part in gender, but so do many other things. And in fact, even when it comes to biology, the chromosomes themselves are no where near as important as hormones. You give someone the right hormone treatment and they will be WAY more whatever gender they want to be than whatever their chromosomes are saying, guaranteed!

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

22 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Well, how you act, how you look, and how other people treat you!

There are tons of things we do as men or women that are nothing to do with our biology, but that contribute to our gender identity.

The whole point of transgenderism is that there's no absolute line between men and women, it's a gradient that has masculine on one side and feminine on the other, and we all fit somewhere in between.

Most biological men cluster around what we call masculine, and there are both social AND biological reasons for that, and most biological women cluster around feminine, again for social AND biological reasons.

But there are in fact many "less-manly" men and "less-womanly" women who aren't even trans but they don't cling so tightly to social expectations of male and female.

So, yes, biology plays a big part in gender, but so do many other things. And in fact, even when it comes to biology, the chromosomes themselves are no where near as important as hormones. You give someone the right hormone treatment and they will be WAY more whatever gender they want to be than whatever their chromosomes are saying, guaranteed!

So all those things don’t change your biology though. I’m just talking about sex. Male and Female. Im not trying to argue against gender identity.

[OptOut | 8,892]

7 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

So all those things don’t change your biology though. I’m just talking about sex. Male and Female. Im not trying to argue against gender identity.

Well hormones definitely do change your biology dude, that's well known! And yeah in trans people have surgery to change their bits and bobs around, I mean you are like 90% the way there on that by that stage.

The last bulwark of the sex vs. gender argument is the chromosomes, but by the time you're walking around with a huge set of double D's I'm willing to let that slide, lol! 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

31 minutes ago, OptOut said:

 

So, yes, biology plays a big part in gender, but so do many other things. And in fact, even when it comes to biology, the chromosomes themselves are no where near as important as hormones. You give someone the right hormone treatment and they will be WAY more whatever gender they want to be than whatever their chromosomes are saying, guaranteed!

From what I understand the sports issue is more about sex (and  sex hormones during peak developmental years) than it is about gender, though.

 

If someone goes through puberty and early adulthood with fully functioning testicles and male genetics, but then switches to hormone suppressing drugs to reduce testosterone levels - from a standpoint of athletic competition, would you say that is materially different from a genetically female (with baseline female-sexed testosterone levels) taking anabolic steroids during her peak developmental years and then discontinuing use?

 

Separating the discussion from "gender" and what a person feels they are, and talking purely from the standpoint of athletic physiology and development.

 

I don't know that there is a "right answer" but it is an interesting topic to consider.

[Californication | 1,490]

11 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

So all those things don’t change your biology though. I’m just talking about sex. Male and Female. Im not trying to argue against gender identity.

I don't follow the arguments, but there is a trans gamer/political commentator on YouTube Cyberdemon531 if you want to hear a trans person's opinion on the subject.

[OptOut | 8,892]

1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said:

From what I understand the sports issue is more about sex (and  sex hormones during peak developmental years) than it is about gender, though.

 

If someone goes through puberty and early adulthood with fully functioning testicles and male genetics, but then switches to hormone suppressing drugs to reduce testosterone levels - from a standpoint of athletic competition, would you say that is materially different from a genetically female (with baseline female-sexed testosterone levels) taking anabolic steroids during her peak developmental years and then discontinuing use?

 

Separating the discussion from "gender" and what a person feels they are, and talking purely from the standpoint of athletic physiology and development.

 

I don't know that there is a "right answer" but it is an interesting topic to consider.

Honestly, I don't have much of an opinion on woman's sports... I mean come on, it's woman's sports! The only female competitive events I personally recognise as legitimate are women's beach volleyball, mud wrestling, and foxy boxing!  

However, if I HAVE to weigh in on that issue, I would say it's pretty simple. Let the governing bodies of each sport decide on a case-by-case basis. If a trans-woman is too premature in her transition to compete fairly, then wait until next year for reassessment. If they pass the governing body's requirements to qualify, she's in.

Generally most sports are self governing, private affairs. I don't see why this issue should be any different.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

1 hour ago, Estil said:

Is that what I did with my proposal?  I mean this is a rather tricky complicated issue (I really feel bad for all the principals, athletic directors, and on up faced with this situation) but I thought my idea at least kinda made sense...  

I wasn't targeting you specifically, but it's definitely a sticky issue since gender and sex have been conjoined in most (all?) human cultures from the dawn of time until now.  The biggest problem I see is using the words "man" and "woman" since those are genders, not sexes, but the large majority of people in this world still think in terms of black and white: male = man and female = woman.  We're just starting to broaden our horizons on that front, but it's going to be a huge problem in terms of semantics for the forseable future.  And no, I would not want to be an athletic director or the like either right now.

The easiest solution I can see is just talking in terms of sex and keeping gender out of the equation entirely since it is so fluid.  I actually came across this issue when I filed my taxes this year (I'm in Canada): there was always a box to check your gender on the tax forms, and I was wondering how the government would deal with that in light of the new world we live in; well they've changed it to "sex at birth: Male or Female" and that solution definitely works for me...

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

39 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Well hormones definitely do change your biology dude, that's well known! And yeah in trans people have surgery to change their bits and bobs around, I mean you are like 90% the way there on that by that stage.

The last bulwark of the sex vs. gender argument is the chromosomes, but by the time you're walking around with a huge set of double D's I'm willing to let that slide, lol! 

Ok. I obviously don’t understand all the hormones chromosomes stuff. But for sports you can’t have biological males competing against biological females. That would delete the purpose of the two divisions.

Your right The ncaa said lia Thompson was fair to compete. The females will decide if they are ok with a male competing against them. If they don’t want to they won’t compete. If they are ok with it they will. But my opinion will still be that males shouldn’t compete against females in sport.

[OptOut | 8,892]

44 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

Ok. I obviously don’t understand all the hormones chromosomes stuff. But for sports you can’t have biological males competing against biological females. That would delete the purpose of the two divisions.

Your right The ncaa said lia Thompson was fair to compete. The females will decide if they are ok with a male competing against them. If they don’t want to they won’t compete. If they are ok with it they will. But my opinion will still be that males shouldn’t compete against females in sport.

Yeah I agree with this too, a guy can't just put on a dress and say he's a lady now and compete with the girls, absolutely! There will be a process of transitioning, like biological transitioning, not just social transitioning, that will have to take place for a male to turn into a female (or close enough), to then be able to compete fairly.

From what I have seen, if a man transitions to a woman biologically from a young age, like puberty age, then they will basically be as similar to a woman as any other woman in terms of physical ability. However, if they transition from an older age, they need to stay on hormones for many years to degrade physically enough for it to be fair.

That's why I say, we should let the sports officials themselves decide on a case-by-case basis. If a born male is totally a girl now, then let her in. If they are still too strong, then they gotta wait, it's part of the process and only fair.

[JamesRobot | 5,839]

Why is it ok for Lia Thomas to compete in NCAA women's swimming events yet Iszac Henig who is transitioning the other way also gets to compete with the women?

Advocates will say it's ok since he hadn't started hormone treatment yet.  But that is because he still wanted to be able to compete with the women.  And because, like Lia, he wouldn't stand a chance competing in the men's division.

I feel like that's having your cake and eating it too.  With that in mind, one would have to assume that the NCAA must allow anyone to compete for either (or both) men and women's teams because they just want to be able to "compete."  Why not just revamp swimming to be a coed sport at this point?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/sports/yale-iszac-henig-ivy-league-championship-50-free.amp

 

[OptOut | 8,892]

16 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

Why is it ok for Lia Thomas to compete in NCAA women's swimming events yet Iszac Henig who is transitioning the other way also gets to compete with the women?

Advocates will say it's ok since he hadn't started hormone treatment yet.  But that is because he still wanted to be able to compete with the women.  And because, like Lia, he wouldn't stand a chance competing in the men's division.

I feel like that's having your cake and eating it too.  With that in mind, one would have to assume that the NCAA must allow anyone to compete for either (or both) men and women's teams because they just want to be able to "compete."  Why not just revamp swimming to be a coed sport at this point?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/sports/yale-iszac-henig-ivy-league-championship-50-free.amp

 

If, theoretically, there was a good way to assess athletes of any gender for their physical prowess and ability, so that anyone can compete with anyone else in roughly equivalent classes, then that would probably be the ideal way to set up sporting competitions. I have absolutely no idea how that would be possible though, I mean there must be so many factors to consider as to make that completely unworkable in reality. So I think we are stuck with men's sports and women's sports for the foreseeable future, and so we need to think of ways to make the sports open and fair to ALL who want to compete, whether they are men, women or in-between.

 

But, I can tell you this, I may be a man, a manly man, a man's man's man's man, as blokey as they come, you ask anyone, they will tell ya, ol' Opty is the manliest man that ever manned at being a man. BUT, I probably couldn't beat ANY professional female athlete in ANY professional sporting contest of any kind ever. I simply do not have the training or physical fitness of a professional athlete, even the women.

So if there WAS any way to rank people according to sporting potential, but not involving sex/gender, I'd almost certainly end up in like a pre-school girls softball team or something! 

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

9 hours ago, Californication said:

I don't follow the arguments, but there is a trans gamer/political commentator on YouTube Cyberdemon531 if you want to hear a trans person's opinion on the subject.

Watched most of it. Did I get the gist? Or was there a twist at the end?

Edited April 13, 2022 by docile tapeworm

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

10 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

No it's not; that's what determines gender.   There's a reason many trans identify as non-binary - it's literally in the name!  Why is that so hard to understand?!?

Sorry, Gender. You are right. 

[Estil | 1,265]

8 hours ago, OptOut said:

Yeah I agree with this too, a guy can't just put on a dress and say he's a lady now and compete with the girls, absolutely!

Oh you don't even have to go that far; just put a tiny pink bow on your head, add an extra letter to your name and you're all set!  

 

[JamesRobot | 5,839]

7 hours ago, OptOut said:

But, I can tell you this, I may be a man, a manly man, a man's man's man's man, as blokey as they come, you ask anyone, they will tell ya, ol' Opty is the manliest man that ever manned at being a man.

 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

13 hours ago, TrekMD said:

I'm just going to leave this here...

 

Did ANY of you here watch this video? I just watched the whole video and it is a great way to help understand gender. For those of you asking more questions, I highly recommend this video. Thank you @TrekMD

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Did ANY of you here watch this video? I just watched the whole video and it is a great way to help understand gender. For those of you asking more questions, I highly recommend this video. Thank you @TrekMD

I watched the whole thing. 
baby m was born male. Lafe was born female. Hunter was born male. The vogue man is gay.

i feel like I understand each of their situations and don’t believe I have any kind of negative feelings towards them. 
 

i still think biological males shouldn’t compete against biological females in sport. If that video was supposed to address that opinion I missed it.
 

 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

47 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

i still think biological males shouldn’t compete against biological females in sport.

Do you think biological females with abnormally high, but natural levels of testosterone should also not compete against biological females in sport?