General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Tabonga | 2,318]

Very little reasoning going on IMHO.  Basically someone (how many? - 1 out of 20000?) doesn't like something so take it off the shelves.  In terms of a library (or a bookstore) it is pretty simple - if you think you will be offended by something then don't read it.   A person should have no right to dictate that someone else can't read something because you find it objectionable,  (Look what has happened to Blazing Saddles - they have chopped out so much that is somehow considered objectionable (although most of what has been cut out was mocking that which they consider objectionable - go figure) that the movie is a travesty of what it was.   It is kinda of sad (and more than a little scary) that people don't understand the concepts of freedomn of speech and freedom of the press anymore.  (The whole sad affair reminds me of the college in Canada where they banned "Walk on the Wild Side"  by Lou Reed because they thought it somehow mocked the alphabet crowd,)

I suspect the two groups operated independently and neither knew what the other was up to .   It would be fun to have a debate between members of both groups - I suspect the book grabbing people would duck out on such an endeavor.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Tabonga

[Tabonga | 2,318]

1 hour ago, Californication said:

Sanders is a democratic socialist. He has not talkes about utopian anything. 

We have a mixed economy, as does Scandinavia, as does most of Europe.

What Sanders is talking about is adding Healthcare and Education to our current socialist programs: the fire dept., police, k-12 education, medicaid, social security, etc.

Some people think Sanders shouldn't even be calling himself a socialist.

Since you mentioned "utopian anything" and no one  except me has mentioned it (unless I missed it) I am going to assume this was (at least partially) directed in my general direction.

I don't see in my post immediately preceding the above quoted one of yours where I mentioned Sanders at all.   You did ask someone to jump in if they thought you were wrong in your definition of socialism.  I was glad to oblige - unless you want to postulate I am no one .  I did provide an expanded definition wherein I said there were various stripes of socialism,   Maybe you found the mention of the Shakers objectionable somehow.

I believe I did state that the Scandinavian countries  had mixed economies.  I didn't say in that post what the U.S. has - I only possibly  tangentially mentioned the U.S.(by inference maybe since the Shakers (who were founded in England but soon came to the U.S.) , the Oneida Community, and the Bellamy brothers were all U.S, folks.  But that is a real stretch IMHO,

Again I did not mention Sanders in my post - no particular need to since the definitions were laid down long before he was ever born.  At least I don't recall reading about him in Das Kapital or Mannifest der Kommunistichen Partei  (or Mein Kampf for that matter).

 videatur supra

================================================

Did you read anything in my post?  Just saying.........

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Tabonga

[Link | 2,712]

re: Carville

per Business Insider

Delaware is the second-smallest American state by area and has under a million people, but it's where 66.8% of Fortune 500 companies are incorporated. The First State has become a destination for major corporations' legal frameworks largely due to policies that result in significantly smaller tax bills than elsewhere in the country.

This also means that its courts are among the most important in the United States for business, and the chief justice of its Supreme Court has a platform for influencing corporate law. Leo E. Strine, Jr., is the outspoken judge holding that position, and he's got a lot to say about the current state of the American economy.

He pointed to the way some Americans talk about Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, who is running as a Democratic presidential candidate. "When people talk Bernie Sanders as if he's a communist, they show a profound ignorance" of the market and of history, Strine said. He added that while he doesn't agree with all of Sanders' proposals, they're not actually radical from a historical or global perspective. Per Strine, Sanders is actually a centrist by the standards of some of our closest and most prosperous European allies.

"There is profound economic insecurity. That is the sort of thing that happened in the late '20s and 1930s and that we overcame with New Deal democracy, which became a role model for market dynamism that was tempered by fairness for everybody," Strine said.

[Californication | 1,477]

3 hours ago, Tabonga said:

Since you mentioned "utopian anything" and no one  except me has mentioned it (unless I missed it) I am going to assume this was (at least partially) directed in my general direction.

I don't see in my post immediately preceding the above quoted one of yours where I mentioned Sanders at all.   You did ask someone to jump in if they thought you were wrong in your definition of socialism.  I was glad to oblige - unless you want to postulate I am no one .  I did provide an expanded definition wherein I said there were various stripes of socialism,   Maybe you found the mention of the Shakers objectionable somehow.

I believe I did state that the Scandinavian countries  had mixed economies.  I didn't say in that post what the U.S. has - I only possibly  tangentially mentioned the U.S.(by inference maybe since the Shakers (who were founded in England but soon came to the U.S.) , the Oneida Community, and the Bellamy brothers were all U.S, folks.  But that is a real stretch IMHO,

Again I did not mention Sanders in my post - no particular need to since the definitions were laid down long before he was ever born.  At least I don't recall reading about him in Das Kapital or Mannifest der Kommunistichen Partei  (or Mein Kampf for that matter).

 videatur supra

================================================

Did you read anything in my post?  Just saying.........

 

Ya, I was responding to you.

I was using my mobile at work and theres no way to quickly trim the quote. I didn't think to use @ at the time. 

I appreciate you jumping in.

We are talking about whether communism and socialism are the same as it relates to Bernie Sanders because that is who Carville called a communist.

I don't think any honest person thinks Sanders is trying to make a Utopia, so I don't think that definition is relevant. 

You said the reason for the success of the scandinavian model is it's capitalistic elements. Bernies Sanders isn't trying to get rid of private ownership, and his suggestions are not more stringent then the scandinavian model so I don't think that would lead to communism.

 

[Californication | 1,477]

49 minutes ago, Link said:

re: Carville

per Business Insider

Delaware is the second-smallest American state by area and has under a million people, but it's where 66.8% of Fortune 500 companies are incorporated. The First State has become a destination for major corporations' legal frameworks largely due to policies that result in significantly smaller tax bills than elsewhere in the country.

This also means that its courts are among the most important in the United States for business, and the chief justice of its Supreme Court has a platform for influencing corporate law. Leo E. Strine, Jr., is the outspoken judge holding that position, and he's got a lot to say about the current state of the American economy.

He pointed to the way some Americans talk about Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, who is running as a Democratic presidential candidate. "When people talk Bernie Sanders as if he's a communist, they show a profound ignorance" of the market and of history, Strine said. He added that while he doesn't agree with all of Sanders' proposals, they're not actually radical from a historical or global perspective. Per Strine, Sanders is actually a centrist by the standards of some of our closest and most prosperous European allies.

"There is profound economic insecurity. That is the sort of thing that happened in the late '20s and 1930s and that we overcame with New Deal democracy, which became a role model for market dynamism that was tempered by fairness for everybody," Strine said.

Ty Tulpa, 

I didn't read your post before I responded, but ya, I think we aare saying similar things 

[Tabonga | 2,318]

49 minutes ago, Californication said:

Ya, I was responding to you.

I was using my mobile at work and theres no way to quickly trim the quote. I didn't think to use @ at the time. 

I appreciate you jumping in.

We are talking about whether communism and socialism are the same as it relates to Bernie Sanders because that is who Carville called a communist.

I don't think any honest person thinks Sanders is trying to make a Utopia, so I don't think that definition is relevant. 

You said the reason for the success of the scandinavian model is it's capitalistic elements. Bernies Sanders isn't trying to get rid of private ownership, and his suggestions are not more stringent then the scandinavian model so I don't think that would lead to communism.

Not a biggie - I was just verifying.

You are indeed welcome.

You can't determine that if  there is no understanding of what the difference is in terms of a definition.  And what better place than to begin with what are arguably the seminal works.  In any event you also were  restrictive in talking  about the difference bewtween the two (and not what Sanders thought was the difference) 

"I am pretty sure that the difference have to do with who controls the means of production. Socialists don't want the government to control the means of production, it can be privately owned. "

Pretty clearly a simple definitional statement.   I provided a different definition (as requested) and elaborated it to provide a little historical color - unless you are one who doesn't think history is relevant (not saying you feel like that - but I have run into those (who were quite blatant about it) on the previous incarnation of these boards),

SInce the post I was reacting to was a strictly definitional one I think the Utopian Socialism is relevant in that  it shows that defining socialism is not as cut and dried as it might seem.

Actually I said whatever success the Scandinavian model has had was due to two things rather than one. And i was pointing out that the Scandinavian model (which most people point to as a success) was not a classical transitional - thereby likely not leading to a communist one.

And for what it is worth I have never said that Sanders is a communist. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Tabonga

[Tabonga | 2,318]

Heh- now Bernie and Bloomberg are getting into it.   This is better than a cage match.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

On 2/16/2020 at 12:44 AM, Quest4Nes said:

I think racism is not that bad at all, and not a problem. White people tip toe around everything. Too scared to even appear maybe racist. America isn't racist. Politicians thrive on pretending to blow up race relations like its something its not. That is why you see all the hate crime hoaxes. Anecdotal, but I don't see confederate flags anywhere anymore around here. As a kid growing up, I saw them everywhere.

 

Do you really think we have a bunch of racists running around all over the country? Do you feel racism is bad like the 1950s-1960s? 

Not even being able to discuss border security without being labeled a racist is just ridiculous and nonsensical. Its just straight identity politics. 

I know you disagree, but I actually dont think trump is racist. Tell me whats racist? And im talking actually racist. Not just a twist/take on words and meaning or  "travel ban", "build a wall" 

 

Possibly the worst take I've ever seen on this board. Unreal!

[Quest4Nes | 376]

44 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Possibly the worst take I've ever seen on this board. Unreal!

Sorry that i have more faith in the country and humanity than you.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Quest4Nes

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

Just now, Quest4Nes said:

Sorry that i have more faith in the country than you.

Either that, or he's real pissed off that you suggest the spirit of the Confederacy is dying. "The South WILL rise again. Unreal!"

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

12 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said:

Sorry that i have more faith in the country and humanity than you.

Blind faith is what's wrong with this country. 

You can have faith that human beings will act kind. Guess what that faith will get you? Jack shit.

To suggest that systemic racism isn't a gigantic issue in this country is just absolutely absurd to me. I can't see how anyone could possibly have an opinion like that unless they lived in a cave.

You think people are too scared to appear racist? Maybe 10 years ago. Maybe then, racists kept their shitty opinions to themselves. Trump has made it ok to "say it like it is". As people why they like Trump. "Oh man, it's cause he tells it like it is! No sugarcoating!" So now it's okay to be openly racist. Which I've seen happen, numerous times in my own life, and seen examples everywhere. 

Let me set you straight.

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

America isn't racist.

Yes, it absolutely is.

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Do you really think we have a bunch of racists running around all over the country?

Yes, absolutely. 

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Tell me whats racist?

Review his Twitter feed. Or ya know, google it.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-racism-examples_n_5991dcabe4b09071f69b9261

In before "Huffington Post is a liberal website". The article is literally quoting him.

[Teh_Lurv | 254]

 

[Quest4Nes | 376]

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Blind faith is what's wrong with this country. 

You can have faith that human beings will act kind. Guess what that faith will get you? Jack shit.

To suggest that systemic racism isn't a gigantic issue in this country is just absolutely absurd to me. I can't see how anyone could possibly have an opinion like that unless they lived in a cave.

You think people are too scared to appear racist? Maybe 10 years ago. Maybe then, racists kept their shitty opinions to themselves. Trump has made it ok to "say it like it is". As people why they like Trump. "Oh man, it's cause he tells it like it is! No sugarcoating!" So now it's okay to be openly racist. Which I've seen happen, numerous times in my own life, and seen examples everywhere. 

Let me set you straight.

Yes, it absolutely is.

Yes, absolutely. 

Review his Twitter feed. Or ya know, google it.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-racism-examples_n_5991dcabe4b09071f69b9261

In before "Huffington Post is a liberal website". The article is literally quoting him.

Lmas o had to stop after the first 3-4 where context and cuts were made. The charlottsville one the very next part in the real thing is always cut out. Hmm why? 

 

The shithole countries thing? Lolololololol. 

Its the man insensitive? Hell yeah? Is he an asshole? Yea he is, but just throwing around terms like racist or bigot or homophobe really have now lost all power because of people like you. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Quest4Nes

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

1 minute ago, Quest4Nes said:

just throwing around terms like racist or bigot or homophobe really have now lost all power because of people like you. 

 

Just so I'm clear, "people like me" calling out racists, bigots, and homophobes (you forgot sexists, I call them out too), has removed the power of those terms?

I guess I'm not as concerned with the "power" of the word, as I am calling out these people for what they are. Trump is a racist. If you choose not to see that, that's on you. Not me. Not my fault for calling it out and it's not me removing power from the term. 

[Quest4Nes | 376]

Why wont he condemn those white supremisists !!!rage!!!!

 

And yes words lose power when you over apply or missapply them. Thats common sense

Edited February 19, 2020 by Quest4Nes

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

Ah yes, Fog City Midge, a truly unbiased source of information.

"Pro Trump Conservative Patriot Exposing leftist lies & hypocrisy Filmmaker & Performer #MAGA #trump2020 #trump #walkaway #keepamericagreat"

[Quest4Nes | 376]

Im sorry, the video is his own words. I thought i heard that sonewhere in here......oh yes when you used huff po and then said ," i know its huff po but its his words". Are you kidding me right now? It was the first video that popped up that showed the clips. 

You want me to find another one? I didnt know i needed more to show video clips of him at the same press conferences doing exactly what the media said he didnt do. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Quest4Nes

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

I really wish i didn't read that HuffnPuff bullshit. If there is any proof of him being racist, it's buried under petty whining or Anonymous/poorly sourced claims of shit, the most ludicrous being he's an anti-semite because of a reference he didn't pick up on, or blaming him for ~900 unconfirmed hate crime reports sourced to a center that was later sued for straight up lying*.

* https://www.newsweek.com/splc-nawaz-million-apologizes-981879

 

19 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Ah yes, Fog City Midge, a truly unbiased source of information.

"Pro Trump Conservative Patriot Exposing leftist lies & hypocrisy Filmmaker & Performer #MAGA #trump2020 #trump #walkaway #keepamericagreat"

You get pissy at the mere thought of people just writing off Huffpo as liberal media, yet you write this guy off, despite also "literally quoting him". Why should we take you seriously, again?

Edited February 19, 2020 by PineappleLawnchair

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

1 minute ago, PineappleLawnchair said:

You get pissy at the mere thought of people just writing off Huffpo as liberal media, yet you write this guy off, despite also "literally quoting him". Why should we take you seriously, again?

Show me where Huffington Post writes "Anti Trump Liberal Anti Patriot Exposing Right wing lies and hypocrisy" on their Twitter profiles. Come on now. You're really equating it to be the same thing? I already knew that any example I posted would be discredited. But come on with using that garbage as a source. 

You already don't take me seriously and I don't give a shit if you do. I'm still going to call out stupid shit I see people say in this thread. 

[Quest4Nes | 376]

2 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Show me where Huffington Post writes "Anti Trump Liberal Anti Patriot Exposing Right wing lies and hypocrisy" on their Twitter profiles. Come on now. You're really equating it to be the same thing? I already knew that any example I posted would be discredited. But come on with using that garbage as a source. 

You already don't take me seriously and I don't give a shit if you do. I'm still going to call out stupid shit I see people say in this thread. 

Dude i dont care aboit midge. Its the video in the video!!!! Who cares who is delivering it.  Figurrs that you didnt even watch it.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Quest4Nes

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

Just now, Quest4Nes said:

Dude i dont care aboit midge. Its the video in the video!!!! Who cares who is delivering it. 

Of course you don't care about your source. Why would you care about the credibility of a source of news?

[Quest4Nes | 376]

2:00 mark

Or do you find this direct video evidence wrong too?

Edited February 19, 2020 by Quest4Nes

[Quest4Nes | 376]

8 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Of course you don't care about your source. Why would you care about the credibility of a source of news?

Oh my god ? Are you dense? Cmon man, quit being so disengenuous. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Quest4Nes

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

1 minute ago, Quest4Nes said:

Oh my god ? Are you dense?

That's a little uncalled for.

Regarding your CNBC video. Because he said that white nationalists should be condemned, that makes him not racist? That's what you are saying? I just want to make sure exactly what you are trying to say here. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

16 minutes ago, PineappleLawnchair said:

I really wish i didn't read that HuffnPuff bullshit. If there is any proof of him being racist, it's buried under petty whining or Anonymous/poorly sourced claims of shit, the most ludicrous being he's an anti-semite because of a reference he didn't pick up on, or blaming him for ~900 unconfirmed hate crime reports sourced to a center that was later sued for straight up lying*.

* https://www.newsweek.com/splc-nawaz-million-apologizes-981879

 

You get pissy at the mere thought of people just writing off Huffpo as liberal media, yet you write this guy off, despite also "literally quoting him". Why should we take you seriously, again?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2019/08/14/trump-and-racism-what-do-the-data-say/amp/
 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history

 

any opinion on these two articles?