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MrWunderful

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12 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Can you provide some examples of “fake racism”?

The Jussie Smullett case is likely a case in point (I know he has only been indicted),  There have been scattered cases across the country (some in Denver) where the supposed victims actually did the  things (whatever they were) themselves,  No one really knows how many (and how many unsolved cases are due to this) fall in this category since no one keeps track and the attitude seems to be "move along - nothing to see here"  (or "nevermind") once the truth comes out - at least to me .  The Smullett case is somewhat unusual since there are possibly some negative consequences coming for the apparent false reporting.

Edited by Wandering Tellurian
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2 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

The Jussie Smullett case is likely a case in point (I know he has only been indicted),  There have been scattered cases across the country (some in Denver) where the supposed victims actually did the  things (whatever they were) themselves,  No one really knows how many (and how many unsolved cases are due to this) fall in this category since no keeps track and the attitude seems to be "move along - nothing to see here"  (or "nevermind") - at least to me .  The Smullett case is somewhat unusual since there are possibly some negative consequences coming for the apparent false reporting.

I dont really see how that is “fake racism” though. Smollet is getting what is coming to him for a false accusation of assault. Is it because he said the guys were wearing Maga hats?

 

Not sure how that is different than Trump grouping mexicans as rapists. Or am I missing something?

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Illegal immigrants commit less violent crime than people born in the u.s..

https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime

From the conservative CATO institute, who reviewd the data kept by the Department of Public Safety in Texas found that in 2015 and 2017 which had nearly the same results,

"As a percentage of their population, there were 50 percent fewer criminal convictions of illigal immigrants than of native born Texans in 2015."

Illegal immigrants commit less violent crime than people born in the u.s.

https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant

Edited by Californication
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2 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

I dont really see how that is “fake racism” though. Smollet is getting what is coming to him for a false accusation of assault. Is it because he said the guys were wearing Maga hats?

 

Not sure how that is different than Trump grouping mexicans as rapists. Or am I missing something?

IIRC correcty Smullet claimed the assailants were white and yelled racial epithets whilst  pummeling him.  While the black guys he apparently hired to attack him may have actually yelled racial epithets while earning their money I doubt anyone will ever know - but it doesn't make much sense does it?  

While my primary intent was not to defend Trump here, let's look at the original quote (if Ihave the right one):

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

 

He does say that he assumes some (illegal immigrants) are good people.  What some meant in terms of percentages is not defineable since we have no way of knowing exactly who is coming over and in any event isn't a specific term..  From reports I have read the coyotes (working with the drug cartels if not part of them) sometimes (often?) give a discount to the smuggled if they mule drugs across the border for the cartels.  I have also seen estimates that as many as 70% of the smuggled women are raped along the way - who would be doing this - gangs of white supremacists just hoping to abuse women sexually?  The smugglers or other smuggled themselves seems more likely..

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6 minutes ago, Californication said:

Illegal immigrants commit less violent crime than people born in the u.s..

https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime

From the conservative CATO institute, who reviewd the data kept by the Department of Public Safety in Texas found that in 2015 and 2017 which had nearly the same results,

"As a percentage of their population, there were 50 percent fewer criminal convictions of illigal immigrants than of native born Texans in 2015."

Illegal immigrants commit less violent crime than people born in the u.s.

https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant

 

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19 minutes ago, Estil said:

Umm, Water Buffalo incident (google it), Duke lacross incident, Michael Brown/Darren Wilson incident, just to name a few?

Fair enough. (3) incidents in 30 years.
 

So what would you say happens more- 
 

“fake racism”

or 

actual racism? 

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, Estil said:
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14 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

IIRC correcty Smullet claimed the assailants were white and yelled racial epithets whilst  pummeling him.  While the black guys he apparently hired to attack him may have actually yelled racial epithets while earning their money I doubt anyone will ever know - but it doesn't make much sense does it?  

While my primary intent was not to defend Trump here, let's look at the original quote (if Ihave the right one):

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

 

He does say that he assumes some (illegal immigrants) are good people.  What some meant in terms of percentages is not defineable since we have no way of knowing exactly who is coming over and in any event isn't a specific term..  From reports I have read the coyotes (working with the drug cartels if not part of them) sometimes (often?) give a discount to the smuggled if they mule drugs across the border for the cartels.  I have also seen estimates that as many as 70% of the smuggled women are raped along the way - who would be doing this - gangs of white supremacists just hoping to abuse women sexually?  The smugglers or other smuggled themselves seems more likely..

Im just trying to understand why estil is outraged over fake racism is when a person of color does it, but when Trump is actually racist, its ok? 
 

But yes, I agree with you that Fake racism is bad. Anyone who falsely accuses someone of something, it should bite them in the ass. 
 

And the argument that Trump said “I guess there are some good people too” means he actually believes it and was being genuine is hilarious. You are smarter than that!

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3 minutes ago, Californication said:

Illegal Immigrants are less likely to commit a violent crime than someone born in the U.S.

Tellurian, why did you make the racist quote from Donald Trump so big?

Even if we assume* (only for the sake of argument) that illegal aliens commit fewer violent** crimes per capita they still increase the total. So we have X murders committed by the legal population  combined with murders committed.  X+Y is still greater than X and would not be there if the illegal aliens were not there.

As far as Trumps statement goes (I am not really going to address "racist" here since it is not really that IMHO and delving into that can only detract from the larger discussions of crime rates among illegal aliens) the only reason that I used large letters is that is how I found it on the web when I copied it - I didn't think it was that critical since I likely would have made errors retyping it.

*The CATO institute that you cited says that their analysis of the data (even that data from Texas) is very problematic for a number of reasons 

**Does that include drunk driving?  And your original statement referred to crime - not just violent crime.  Unless you can refute my I9 info that skews things for the crime rate.

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34 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Im just trying to understand why estil is outraged over fake racism is when a person of color does it, but when Trump is actually racist, its ok? 
 

But yes, I agree with you that Fake racism is bad. Anyone who falsely accuses someone of something, it should bite them in the ass. 
 

And the argument that Trump said “I guess there are some good people too” means he actually believes it and was being genuine is hilarious. You are smarter than that!

I can't speak for Estil.

According to some of us here (and elsewhere) whites can't be treated in racist manner so fake racism can't be claimed by them.  I don't believe that but claims of reverse racism are generally ignored.  And the various fake cases generally attract lots of attention when they are initially reported  until it is discovered that they are a hoax - they then usually disappear as quickly as the press can bury them.  But they are the ones that get the press so those are the ones that people like Estil get wind of.  Whether Trump is racist or not is up for debate - but his words do seem to get twisted at every opportunity and he does not cower in the face ot the PC Juggernaut - something that only further irritates some people.

You can parse peoples words as much as you want - I personally don't think Obama was being racist when he talked about (essentially the midwest) people clinging to their guns and bibles.  Really really poor choice of words and phrasing but I could see where people could reasonably attribute it to being aimed at (at least a segment) of whire folks.  Same for Hilary and her deplorables statement.  I think Trump was saying there were possibly some good people (I am guessing he didn't think many - but that is just a guess on my part).  In any event unless we have really large groups of blond haired blue eyed Norwegians or red haired Irishmen sneaking across the border in a problematic manner and he thinks they are mostly good people we have no basis of comparison to prove racism..

Edited by Wandering Tellurian
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19 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

Even if we assume* (only for the sake of argument) that illegal aliens commit fewer violent** crimes per capita they still increase the total. So we have X murders committed by the legal population  combined with murders committed.  X+Y is still greater than X and would not be there if the illegal aliens were not there.

There's nothing to assume. Illegals commit less crimes as a percentage. This is just one study, there are others.

Since immigrants commit less crimes than people in the U.S. as a percentage, we are safer surrounded by illegals. than people born here.

The Cato study said there was an error for the data, but (paraphrasing) if the error were removed the crimes as a percentage committed by illegals would be even lower. They went with the conservative estimate in the study.

Edited by Californication
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San Diego and El Paso, border community's are ranked as two of the top 10 safest cities in America. 

 

 

https://www.elpasotimes.com/story/news/local/el-paso/2019/04/24/el-paso-ranked-top-10-safest-metro-cities-u-s/3556070002/

https://www.kusi.com/new-fbi-report-names-san-diego-safest-big-city-in-america/

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10 minutes ago, Californication said:

There's nothing to assume. Illegals commit less crimes as a percentage. Thisbis just one study, there are others.

Since immigrants commit less crimes than people in the U.S. as a percentage, we are safer surrounded by illegals. than people born here.

The Cato study said there was an error for the data, but (paraphrasing) if the error were removed the crimes as a percentage committed by illegals would be even lower. They went with the conservative estimate in the study.

Do I need to explain what is meant by assuming something for the sake of argument/discussion.  If I don't need  to do this then you   are (quite possibly) deliberately twisting my words in order (I assume) to obfuscate the discussion.

They may commit less violent  crime  but unless you disprove my I9 info the overall  crime rate is still higher. 

So everything the CATO institute says is the gospel truth - unless it contradicts something else you believe in?

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9 minutes ago, Californication said:

We can play with competing articles till the cows come home: 

https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/crime/329589-the-truth-about-crime-illegal-immigrants-and-sanctuary-cities

In the end it winds up proving very little.

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14 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

Do I need to explain what is meant by assuming something for the sake of argument/discussion.  If I don't need  to do this tjem  are deliberately twisting my words in order (I assume) to obfuscate the discussion.

They may commit less violent  crime  but unless you disprove my I9 info the overall  crime rate is still higher. 

So everything the CATO institute says is the gospel truth - unless it contradicts something else you believe in?

The numbers Cato used are directly from the Texas Depatment of Public Safety. There data was part of a release using the public information act. The original study was meant to be internal, probably so they could figure out how to best peotect the public. So ya, numbers don't get much better than that.

If you want to call an illegal a criminal for commiting a white collar crime while otherwise being a productive member of society and paying into the system go right ahead. 

That is not what the racist donald trump is talking about when he calls them criminals. He calls them rapists and murders. And as a percentage of the population that is a racist lie.

 

Edited by Californication
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1 minute ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

We can play with competing articles till the cows come home: 

https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/crime/329589-the-truth-about-crime-illegal-immigrants-and-sanctuary-cities

In the end it winds up proving very little.

The FBI named San Diego the safest big City in the country.

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1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

Fair enough. (3) incidents in 30 years.
 

So what would you say happens more- 
 

“fake racism”

or 

actual racism? 

 

 

 

https://nypost.com/2019/02/21/the-list-of-bogus-hate-crimes-in-trump-era-is-long/

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/02/22/jussie-smollett-empire-attack-fired-cut-video-chicago-fox-column/2950146002/

 

 

whether you want to believe it or not. There is currency in being a victim.

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24 minutes ago, Californication said:

The numbers Cato used are directly from the Texas Depatment of Public Safety. There data was part of a release using the public information act. The original study was meant to be internal, probably so they could figure out how to best peotect the public. So ya, numbers don't get much better than that.

If you want to call an illegal a criminal for commiting a white collar crimee while other wise being a productive member of society and paying into the system go right ahead. 

That is no what the racist donald trump is talking about when he calls them criminals. He calls them rapists and murders. And as a percentage of the population that is a racist lie.

 

You are assuming that everthing across the country is the same as Texas.  Numbers can get better than that (in terms of accuracy) for the country as a whole.  In any event, all crimes committed by illegal aliens are still in addition to those committed by legal residents - they don't subtract from that total at all.

You set the terms for the discussion on crime.   I am afraid you have to sleep in the bed you made unless you can disprove my I9 info.  Actually it seems you are backhandedly agreeing since all of a sudden we are talking about white collar crime (a distinction you have not made until now)  -  which  by the by are still felonies.  And you haven't really lived until someone (illegal or not) has assumed your identity (or just your SS number)  - it has not happened to me but to friends -  didn't seem like a trivial white collar crime to them.   But along the same lines, as a bonafide citizen  how many felonies do I get a free pass on - and do I get to decide what they are.  Or is that privilege reserved (ironically enough) in your world for illegal aliens?  (And illegals by and large don't pay into the system as much as legal folks do.  But that is another topic for separate discussion.)

That dog don't hunt no more (ie Trump) - are you going to say that no criminals cross the border?  Who is bringing in the drugs, who is raping those women?     

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said:

Yeah all bad things. 
 

But that doesnt answer my question. How do you feel Quest? That “fake racism” is a larger problem than actual racism?

would you say America is more accepting of other races under Trump? Would you say minorities appear to feel safer since he took office?

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Just now, MrWunderful said:

Yeah all bad things. 
 

But that doesnt answer my question. How do you feel Quest? That “fake racism” is a larger problem than actual racism?

would you say America is more accepting of other races under Trump? Would you say minorities appear to feel safer since he took office?

I think racism is not that bad at all, and not a problem. White people tip toe around everything. Too scared to even appear maybe racist. America isn't racist. Politicians thrive on pretending to blow up race relations like its something its not. That is why you see all the hate crime hoaxes. Anecdotal, but I don't see confederate flags anywhere anymore around here. As a kid growing up, I saw them everywhere.

 

Do you really think we have a bunch of racists running around all over the country? Do you feel racism is bad like the 1950s-1960s? 

Not even being able to discuss border security without being labeled a racist is just ridiculous and nonsensical. Its just straight identity politics. 

I know you disagree, but I actually dont think trump is racist. Tell me whats racist? And im talking actually racist. Not just a twist/take on words and meaning or  "travel ban", "build a wall" 

 

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