General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Tabonga | 2,318]

22 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Yeah all bad things. 
 

But that doesnt answer my question. How do you feel Quest? That “fake racism” is a larger problem than actual racism?

would you say America is more accepting of other races under Trump? Would you say minorities appear to feel safer since he took office?

I do find it kind of contradictory that people (often minorities) are so willing to come to a society that is so racist - and where the wealth is so lopsidedly distributed in the the top echelon's favor.  Go figure.

I think fake racism is inextricably linked to/with actual racism.   The first feeds off of the second and to some very radical elements the second is reinforced by the first. Not throwing rocks at anyone  here - false racism is (and should be) a real concern to anyone.  Doesn't mean real racism should be ignored by any stretch of the imagination. 

I am still undecided as to who the worst president of my life has been - the second Bush or Obama.   IMHO - Bush got us that bogus war in Iraq whilst  race relations took several steps backward under Obama.  While Bush's Iraq war was disasterous for us in that region I suspect the deteriorated race relations under Obama may have longer lasting effects. (As I have said elsewhere at least when I decide who was the worst I will know who was the second worst, ) *

* Those are not the only things I disliked those two for - but they are by far the biggest.  Bush also took a lot of steps to protect the Saudis from their apparent involvment with 911 - but Obama doubled down on it by continuing the cover up (as does Trump)  - so that is more of a wash IMHO.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Wandering Tellurian

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

15 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said:

I think racism is not that bad at all, and not a problem. White people tip toe around everything. Too scared to even appear maybe racist. America isn't racist. Politicians thrive on pretending to blow up race relations like its something its not. That is why you see all the hate crime hoaxes. Anecdotal, but I don't see confederate flags anywhere anymore around here. As a kid growing up, I saw them everywhere.

 

Do you really think we have a bunch of racists running around all over the country? Do you feel racism is bad like the 1950s-1960s? 

Not even being able to discuss border security without being labeled a racist is just ridiculous and nonsensical. Its just straight identity politics. 

I know you disagree, but I actually dont think trump is racist. Tell me whats racist? And im talking actually racist. Not just a twist/take on words and meaning or  "travel ban", "build a wall" 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history
 

Here is a link. But if you honestly dont think racism is still alive and kicking,And truly dont think Trump is racist its not going to convince you. 
 

I agree- its not “as bad” as it was- But white nationalism is slowly creeping into mainstream because of things like the “alt-right” whether you agree or not. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

10 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

I do find it kind of contradictory that people (often minorities) are so willing to come to a society that is so racist - and where the wealth is so lopsidedly distributed in the the top echelon's favor.  Go figure.

I think fake racism is inextricably linked to/with actual racism.   The first feeds off of the second and to some very radical elements the second is reinforced by the first. Not throwing rocks at anyone  here - false racism is (and should be) a real concern to anyone.  Doesn't mean real racism should be ignored by any stretch of the imagination. 

I am still undecided as to who the worst president of my life has been - the second Bush or Obama.   IMHO - Bush got us that bogus war in Iraq whilst  race relations took several steps backward under Obama.  While Bush's Iraq war was disasterous for us in that region I suspect the deteriorated race relations under Obama may have longer lasting effects. (As I have said elsewhere at least when I decide who was the worst I will know who was the second worst, ) *

* Those are not the only things I disliked those two for - but they are by far the biggest.  Bush also took a lot of steps to protect the Saudis from their apparent involvment with 911 - but Obama doubled down on it by continuing the cover up (as does Trump)  - so that is more of a wash IMHO.

 

 

Your first statement assuming the only people that experience racism arent “from here”. Plenty of legal citizens experience it as well. 
 

As far as terrible presidents, at least Bush and Obama led with some decorum. 
 

The things Trump says about minorities, Democrats, even his own Government will have far longer lasting effects than what others have done (outside of the loss of life from soldiers). Not to mention is pure contempt for the constitution and rule of law. 

[Californication | 1,477]

55 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said:

I find it funny that that is probably the only thing you would ever use from the CATO institute. You and the Koch Brothers. Smh.

 

If someone else posted that site you would probably just say its a bullshit libertarian/republican talking point think tank and discredit it.

 

Yeah, your probably right. I heard the number quoted before so when I did a search and saw Cato come up I was disappointed. Since I get my news from fairly reliable people I read the details of the study and Cato basically just put the information request in and aggregated the data after it was made public. Since the data is public now and any one can repeat it, Cato isn't really in a position to fool with it. Also since the data is public and independent people can repeat it, which I believe people have done, it's reliable.

Bit you're right, I usually disregard think tank studies without reading the details.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Californication

[Tabonga | 2,318]

3 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

wh

I agree- its not “as bad” as it was- But white nationalism is slowly creeping into mainstream because of things like the “alt-right” whether you agree or not. 

 

Being the oldest person* here I can say fairly certainly that things were improving greatly from when I first became cognizane of the larger world in the late fifties (I was always somewhat precocious as a youth) but that hit a bump (of indeterminate size) from 2009 t0 2016.

While the rise of white nationalism (which has along with some other things has become an overused phrase) is somewhat problematic but fortunately George Lincoln Rockwell and his successors are clowns compared to Hitler (who was also a clown - but a deadly one).

I find the activities of antifa far more problematic than the far right (I hate to use that term since I view the political spectrum as a circle where the extremes meet (if not in terminology then in effect).  Their numbers are far greater (they only seem to surface when theu have the overwhelming advantage in numbers and weapons - they seem to have stayed home for the recent second amendment rally in Virginia - go figure) and they seem more intent on suppressing everyone elses rights (and I am not talking about the Nazis et al here).  Their tactics are no better than the Nazis (and to be fair the Communists) whilst battling for the streets of Weimar Germany./

*Not trying to pull the age card but there is a decided advantage to having lived during those times (even admittedly as an observer) rather than just reading about it.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

7 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

 

Being the oldest person* here I can say fairly certainly that things were improving greatly from when I first became cognizane of the larger world in the late fifties (I was always somewhat precocious as a youth) but that hit a bump (of indeterminate size) from 2009 t0 2016.

While the rise of white nationalism (which has along with some other things has become an overused phrase) is somewhat problematic but fortunately George Lincoln Rockwell and his successors are clowns compared to Hitler (who was also a clown - but a deadly one).

I find the activities of antifa far more problematic than the far right (I hate to use that term since I view the political spectrum as a circle where the extremes meet (if not in terminology then in effect).  Their numbers are far greater (they only seem to surface when theu have the overwhelming advantage in numbers and weapons - they seem to have stayed home for the recent second amendment rally in Virginia - go figure) and they seem more intent on suppressing everyone elses rights (and I am not talking about the Nazis et al here).  Their tactics are no better than the Nazis (and to be fair the Communists) whilst battling for the streets of Weimar Germany./

*Not trying to pull the age card but there is a decided advantage to having lived during those times (even admittedly as an observer) rather than just reading about it.

Antifa is just as bad. Extremism itself is bad. 
 

The problem with politics nowadays is its too onesided.  People ASSUME that because I dislike Trump, I am an automatic liberal hippie socialist.  Because I think Gays in relationships should be allowed to get the same benefits as married people, I want to take your guns. (Not saying you specifically, using you in the global sense)

 

Political discourse is rapidly deteriorating, and Trump isnt helping. 
 

 

“Fight Fire with Fire, and the whole world burns”

[Californication | 1,477]

10 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

 

I find the activities of antifa far more problematic than the far right (I hate to use that term since I view the political spectrum as a circle where the extremes meet (if not in terminology then in effect).  Their numbers are far greater (they only seem to surface when theu have the overwhelming advantage in numbers and weapons

Where do you get this stuff?

Can you name anyone that Antifa has killed? I disagree with what they do,  but this is just silly.

White nationalists are extremly dangerous. They are domestic terrorists.They kill a lot of people every year. 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Californication

[Quest4Nes | 376]

21 minutes ago, Californication said:

Yeah, your probably right. I heard the number quoted before so when I did a search and saw Cato come up I was disappointed. Since I get my news from fairly reliable people I read the details of the study and Cato basically just put the information request in and aggregated the data after it was made public. Since the data is public now and any one can repeat it, Cato isn't really in a position to fool with it. Also since the data is public and independent people can repeat it, which I believe people have done, it's reliable.

Bit you're right, I usually disregard think tank studies without reading the details.

are you a real person? this is almost like a troll parody account. This is the most ridiculous thing Ive read. 

 

Thank you for making my day, that was hilarious. The mental gymnastics of that statement. WOW. ....Slow Clap

[Tabonga | 2,318]

25 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Your first statement assuming the only people that experience racism arent “from here”. Plenty of legal citizens experience it as well. 
 

As far as terrible presidents, at least Bush and Obama led with some decorum. 
 

The things Trump says about minorities, Democrats, even his own Government will have far longer lasting effects than what others have done (outside of the loss of life from soldiers). Not to mention is pure contempt for the constitution and rule of law. 

Nowhere did I assume that.  The big difference is that people (of whatever stripe) coming into the country do so willingly whilst those born here usually don't have much incentive to leave.  A bunch of enterainers did threaten to bolt to Canada if Trump won - as far as I know none did - I would gladly contribute to a fund if they actually would leave and promise never to set foot here again.

As far as decorum goes, you must remember this (to lift a line from Casablanca):

 

Actually  I would argue that the Dems have showed contempt for the rule of law (and the constitution) - more than a few of them contested a fairly won election and Pelosi admitted that they began planning an impeachment almost as soon (if not before) Trump assumed office.

[Californication | 1,477]

22 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said:

are you a real person? this is almost like a troll parody account. This is the most ridiculous thing Ive read. 

 

Thank you for making my day, that was hilarious. The mental gymnastics of that statement. WOW. ....Slow Clap

Alright. Just being honest.

I'm not sure what the parody is. No one has pointed out a problem with my logic. Cato is mostly wrong, but you know what they say about broken clocks.

The point is illegals commit less violent crimes than people that are born here. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Californication

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

10 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

Nowhere did I assume that.  The big difference is that people (of whatever stripe) coming into the country do so willingly whilst those born here usually don't have much incentive to leave.  A bunch of enterainers did threaten to bolt to Canada if Trump won - as far as I know none did - I would gladly contribute to a fund if they actually would leave and promise never to set foot here again.

As far as decorum goes, you must remember this (to lift a line from Casablanca):

 

Actually  I would argue that the Dems have showed contempt for the rule of law (and the constitution) - more than a few of them contested a fairly won election and Pelosi admitted that they began planning an impeachment almost as soon (if not before) Trump assumed office.

You had me until that last paragraph sounds like some solid whataboutism. 
 

“Fairly won” is debatable. 
 

Not even going to get into the nonsense of the idea that the democrats “contempt for the rule of law” is even in the same galaxy as Trump’s. 

[Quest4Nes | 376]

11 minutes ago, Californication said:

Alright. Just being honest.

I'm not sure what the parody is. No one has pointed out a problem with my logic. Cato is mostly wrong, but you know what they say about broken clocks.

The point is illegals commit less crimes than people that are born here. 

Oh I believe you're honest.

Again, lets review

-Californication condemns think tank biased sites

-Californication quotes CATO statistic

-Quest4NES points out its according to you , a think tank statistic

-Californication agrees but is disapointed his factual statistic is from a place he doesnt like. Then says that he basically can approve a statistic when deems fit regardless of source

 

 

-5 years from now, Quest uses CATO statistic, and is told its not reliable. 

 

The dude literally changed his entire philosophy on immigration. TOTAL CHANGE. in 2015 I guess sanders was a racist.

By the way Bernie is correct(in 2015), you cant have a socialist system in place and have open borders or mass illegal immigration(incentivizing millions more to come if you just give away citizenship)

Edited February 16, 2020 by Quest4Nes

[Californication | 1,477]

If you grab a Cato study and tell me why its valid and your argument makes sense I would accept it.

I disregard most conservative think tank studies because they usually come up with ideas on how to market a lie. They generally have a track record of dishonesty so I don't waste the energy of looking into it. 

It's like getting info. from Fox News. They are mostly wrong, but occasionally they are right. If I heard fox news say something right would I watch them as my source of news everyday? No, obviously not, it takes too much energy to tell when they are being honest..

Or from the other side, if I watch democracy now, i don't have to pay attention as much because I trust them. They are mostly accurate, but from time to time I think they are wrong or I disagree.. I will watch them regularly though because they are mostly right. and it take me less energy overall to get to the truth.

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Californication

[Tabonga | 2,318]

35 minutes ago, Californication said:

Where do you get this stuff?

Can you name anyone that Antifa has killed? I disagree with what they do,  but this is just silly.

White nationalists are extremly dangerous. They are domestic terrorists.They kill a lot of people every year. 

 

Here is a video of antifa taking over a street and ambushing motorists that (rightfully) object.

Here is a journalist (admittedly right wing) getting attacked by several really brave antifa masked hooligans (not even the despicable Nazis do that - KKK used to but I believe they abandoned the full hood a long time ago) - the milkshakes they were throwing reportedly contained cement - which in turn contains lime - which is extremely painful if it gets in the eyes - it can cause temporary and even permanent blindness.  The reporter was treated for brain injuries - which could have had serious effects -even resulting in death.  It is just a matter of time until they do kill someone.

Do you think I can find other videos where they are running in their makeshift masks and weapons around in large numbers  harassing people?

[Quest4Nes | 376]

7 minutes ago, Californication said:

If you grab a Cato study and tell me why its valid and your argument makes sense I would accept it.

I disregard most conservative think tank studies because they usually come up with ideas on how to market a lie. They generally have a track record of dishonesty so I don't waste the energy of looking into it. 

It's like getting info. from Fox News. They are mostly wrong, but occasionally they are right. If I heard fox news say something right would I watch them as my source of news everyday? No, obviously not, it takes too much energy to tell when they are being honest..

Or from the other side, if I watch democracy now, i don't have to pay attention as much because I trust them. They are mostly accurate, but from time to time I think they are wrong or.I disagree.. I will watch them regularly though because they are moatly right. and it take me less energy overalk to get to the truth.

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/democracy-now/

 

? you are correct, seems unbiased enough.

You have a magic power of knowing who is being intellectually honest with you apparently.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Quest4Nes

[Californication | 1,477]

https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2018

9 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

Here is a video of antifa taking over a street and ambushing motorists that (rightfully) object.

ere is a journalist (admittedly right wing) getting attacked by several really brave antifa masked hooligans (not even the despicable Nazis do that - KKK used to but I believe they abandoned the full hood a long time ago) - the milkshakes they were throwing reportedly contained cement - which in turn contains lime - which is extremely painful if it gets in the eyes - it can cause temporary and even permanent blindness.  The reporter was treated for brain injuries - which could have had serious effects -even resulting in death.  It is just a matter of time until they do kill someone.

Do you think I can find other videos where they are running in their makeshift masks and weapons around in large numbers  harassing people?

And here are the extemists killings of 2018. 

https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2018

Everyone of them was associated with right wing extremism.

In 2018 alone, people with ties to white extremism killed atleast 50 people, "but you find Antifa more problematic."

Why is that? 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Californication

[Tabonga | 2,318]

20 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

You had me until that last paragraph sounds like some solid whataboutism. 
 

“Fairly won” is debatable. 
 

Not even going to get into the nonsense of the idea that the democrats “contempt for the rule of law” is even in the same galaxy as Trump’s. 

Not really - if they were indeed planning impeachment from the get go that kinda goes against what impeachment was intended to do.  And it has been my experience that the subterfuge about whataboutism is way to divert from the idea/truth that in political discource it is ok for our guys to do what we accuse the other guy of doing.  Saul Alinsky would be really proud.t

Wasn't that the election where no one won a majority of the popular vote?  And everyone up for election understood the rules beforehand?

I suspect in hindsight (several decades from now) the whole impeachment thing (vis a vis the house -see above) will be viewed as a travesty.

[Californication | 1,477]

Who hoo, Bernie Sanders has more union endorsements than any other candidate.

Sanders - 29 Union Endorsements

Biden - 9 

Warren 4

[Quest4Nes | 376]

11 minutes ago, Californication said:

https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2018

And here are the extemists killings of 2018. 

https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2018

Everyone of them was associated with right wing extremism.

In 2018 alone, people with ties to white extremism killed atleast 50 people, "but you find Antifa more problematic."

Why is that? 

Seeing that this country is 72% white of a population of 327 million, the point is made. Its not as prevalent as its portrayed.

 

Putting people into boxes by labeling them is creating these fringe groups in the first place. Divide and conquer rhetoric. 

[Californication | 1,477]

1 hour ago, Quest4Nes said:

Seeing that this country is 72% white of a population of 327 million, the point is made. Its not as prevalent as its portrayed.

 

Putting people into boxes by labeling them is creating these fringe groups in the first place. Divide and conquer rhetoric. 

I think we got our conversations crossed. You and Mr. Wondeful were talking about whether racism exists and if its a problem.

I was talking to Tellurian who was saying that he "finds Antifa more problematic than the far right"

I don't understand Tellurian  because people associated with the far right murder people each year and I don't know if Antifa has killed anyone.

 

[Californication | 1,477]

Continuing, I think its silly to compare Antifa to the Murderous domestic terrorists, who are time and again linked to white conservative extremists. 

One is obviously much worse than the other. 

Now if you want my response to your conversation, Quest, murder is only the most extreme outgrowth of racism. Racism has effects in many othrr places besides crime statistics.

Are you saying you don't think 50 murders is that bad so not that many people are racist?

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

8 hours ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

 

They may commit less violent  crime  but unless you disprove my I9 info the overall  crime rate is still higher. 

 

When people talk about "crime" in the generic, the thought they are generally pushing for is imagining the people as VIOLENT criminals (ie making your community materially less safe).

That is why violent crime is the more relevant statistic.

 

 

Edit: this isn't taking a position on whether illegal immigration is problematic in other ways.  Just making a point about the crime rates that actually "matter" when you have a group you can otherwise arbitrarily define as 100% offender rate.

Edited February 16, 2020 by arch_8ngel

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

5 hours ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

Not really - if they were indeed planning impeachment from the get go that kinda goes against what impeachment was intended to do.  

There is a bit of difference between planning for impeachment (no matter what) from the beginning, and having a plan from the beginning for when a guy like Trump inevitably commits impeachable offenses.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

6 hours ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

Not really - if they were indeed planning impeachment from the get go that kinda goes against what impeachment was intended to do.  And it has been my experience that the subterfuge about whataboutism is way to divert from the idea/truth that in political discource it is ok for our guys to do what we accuse the other guy of doing.  Saul Alinsky would be really proud.t

Wasn't that the election where no one won a majority of the popular vote?  And everyone up for election understood the rules beforehand?

I suspect in hindsight (several decades from now) the whole impeachment thing (vis a vis the house -see above) will be viewed as a travesty.

If thats a travesty, i wonder what future folks will think of Trump soliciting foreign interference in elections, enriching himself through the government and his properties, referring to himself as a king, using his power to get back at people with grudges, firing people that did the right thing by testifying, etc. 

What about a sham trial by the senate, in the face of overwhelming evidence?

Its like you are glossing over all that because Democrats followed the rules.   What should they have done? Just said nothing? Laugh it off Because Trump is so hilarious, he was just trolling them?

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

6 hours ago, Quest4Nes said:

Seeing that this country is 72% white of a population of 327 million, the point is made. Its not as prevalent as its portrayed.

 

Putting people into boxes by labeling them is creating these fringe groups in the first place. Divide and conquer rhetoric. 

Isnt that what Trump folks want though? Divide and conquer? Say things like “Democrats hate you and your families, and want to take your Guns and bibles away?”

Its us vs them. If you arent 100% with us, then you are 100% against us. 
 

And people were fringe before anyone put them in a box anyways. Calling people white nationalists if they follow those ideals doesnt make them more aggressively follow the ideas.