General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Tulpa | 3,494]

9 minutes ago, Estil said:

And you don't think liberals and/or anti Trumpers don't do the same just as much if not more so?  

A few do, sure, but I see it way more commonly from the hardcore Trump supporters. Just empty rhetoric over and over.

Trump himself recycles Hannity and other pundit talking points. Just look at his Twitter account. Or watch his own rallies.

This is not a "both sides are equally guilty" situation.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Tulpa

[Tabonga | 2,317]

3 hours ago, Tulpa said:

 

This is not a "both sides are equally guilty" situation.

Have you run this past some (truly) neutral parties* to verify this?  

*Assuming such actually exist somewhere and can be verified as such.  

Edited February 15, 2020 by Wandering Tellurian

[Estil | 1,264]

1 hour ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

Have you run this past some (truly) neutral parties* to verify this?  

*Assuming such actually exist somewhere and can be verified as such.  

This site looks pretty good:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

10 hours ago, Estil said:

Oh yeah, in the previous post you made that assumption about me.  What makes you and the others here (well the Trump haters on here anyway) so certain that those who have differing viewpoints are "just repeating whatever so and so says" or "just repeating talking points"?  While it is true I was certainly into Fox News back in my college days (early 2000s) there's nowadays all kinds of other channels on YouTube and such that honestly make traditional cable/TV news kinda old fashioned for the most part.  Honestly I've not watched traditional cable/satellite TV in years....except of course when UK is playing

Look, I'm not repeating any "talking points"...I'm only saying what I personally think about different things, both here and gaming related.  I am more than capable of having a mind of my own like anyone else.  After all you all know what they say about people who ass-u-me.

I wasnt referring to you. 
 

And just so you know, most of the garbage that Hannity and carlson shout about is pretty easily disproved with a little bit of research. 

[Californication | 1,477]

5 hours ago, Estil said:

This site looks pretty good:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/

I clicked on that link. That page was malfunctioning. The script kept jumping out of place. I hope I didn't get a virus or something.

[Estil | 1,264]

4 minutes ago, Californication said:

I clicked on that link. That page was malfunctioning. The script kept jumping out of place. I hope I didn't get a virus or something.

I hope not either; you might want to use an Ad Blocker.

[Californication | 1,477]

10 hours ago, Estil said:

I can't believe this buy I honestly do agree with you...and I wasn't sure if we could agree politically on hardly anything.  Even with illegal immigration enforcement it should absolutely be "focus on the biggest fish and work our way down".  You know focus first on the illegals who really are dangerous violent felons or big drug dealers or whatnot?  If we had done that during the 80s/90s War on Drugs instead of wasting time/resources on locking up just mere possession of a small amount of pot or something...I bet it would've turned out far better.  How is anyone supposed to get help for things like that after all if they're scarred they risk going to jail if they come forward?

You do realize that illegals commit less crimes than Americans right?

And you know that most border towns have less crime than comperable cities in other parts of the country right?

Edited February 16, 2020 by Californication

[Gloves | 11,777]

9 minutes ago, Californication said:

You do realize that illegals commit less crimes than Americans right?

And you know that most border towns have less crime than comperable cities in other parts of the country right?

I'm not arguing with you as I have zero interest in doing so, nor any data or anything whatsoever.

Just wanted to pop in to say that "... illegals commit less crimes..." is a really funny statement to read.

[Tabonga | 2,317]

1 hour ago, Californication said:

You do realize that illegals commit less crimes than Americans right?

Most studies mix illegal aliens and legal aliens together - which obfuscates a lot of things - including crime rates (legal aliens tend to commit fewer crimes simply because they have serious consequences to face (such as losing their legal right to be here)).  Also there really is no registry to specifically track illegal aliens' crime rates - which is one reason no one knows (for eample)  how many people (both legal residents of one stripe or another and other illegal aliens) are killed (by one means or another) by illegal aliens.    There is usually a great deal of resistance to establishing such databases - I am sure you can guess what quarters  much of such resistance comes from.   We do have a hodge podge of statistics (usually from local jurisdictions) that is far from complete enough to determine much of anythng.

Virtually all illegal aliens (excluding most minors under say 16) commit felonies while here  - they are rarely prosecuted for them (that is a horse of a much different color)  but that does not mean they don't occur.  Which is a higher rate than either citizens or legal aliens.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Wandering Tellurian

[Californication | 1,477]

1 hour ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

Most studies mix illegal aliens and legal aliens together - which obfuscates a lot of things - including crime rates (legal aliens tend to commit fewer crimes simply because they have serious consequences to face (such as losing their legal right to be here)).  Also there really is no registry to specifically track illegal aliens' crime rates - which is one reason no one knows (for eample)  how many people (both legal residents of one stripe or another and other illegal aliens) are killed (by one means or another) by illegal aliens.    There is usually a great deal of resistance to establishing such databases - I am sure you can guess what quarters  much of such resistance comes from.   We do have a hodge podge of statistics (usually from local jurisdictions) that is far from complete enough to determine much of anythng.

Virtually all illegal aliens (excluding most minors under say 16) commit felonies while here  - they are rarely prosecuted for them (that is a horse of a much different color)  but that does not mean they don't occur.  Which is a higher rate than either citizens or legal aliens.

Dude, you have a lot of racist ideas in your head. Where do you get your news?

[Tabonga | 2,317]

1 minute ago, Californication said:

Dude, you have a lot of racist ideas in your head. Where do you get your news?

Thinking that illegals commit crimes (at whatever rate) is racist? 

Or is saying we don't know how  many people (of whatever stripe)  are killed by illegal aliens racist?  

What race are illegal aliens?  

Why do illegals (from wherever) usually come here?  

Any other false accusations you want to make against me? - This is not the first time you have done this (of course you did say my questioning those silly.)

 

 

 

[Gloves | 11,777]

If you're gonna say someone's being racist let's at least elaborate on specifically what we have a problem with. 

Further, generally, just don't.

This is for discussing stuff of a political nature, if you can't handle that then don't join in the conversation. Don't resort to calling people racist, rather specify what you think it is they said is racist. Being all vague and attack-y is just looking to start an unnecessary argument over nothing.

[Californication | 1,477]

I didn't call him racist. I said he has racist ideas in his head. 

"Virtually all illegal aliens commit felonies while here."

"They are rarely prosecuted for them."

The first quote is super racist. You are saying almost all illegals commit felonys, by your own logic, there is no national database, so there are no national records kept of the crimes of illegals, therefore the only way to assume that "virtually all illegals commit felonies," is to assume mexicans or mexicans that cross the border are the type of people that commit felonies. That is by definition racist. 

We have been talking about Mexicans this entire thread. No one has said a word about illegal's from any other country. 

Then you go on to say, "they are rarely prosecuted for them."

If someone has committed a crime and they have not been convicted, how can you assume that group of people commit crime? How would you know if there is no record? That is again, racist, because you are assuming they commot crimes because they are illegals with no other data. 

But this hae a second goal. When I start to give you information that illegals don't commit crimes at the rates your saying they do, it doesn't matter because you said that they commit felonies, but they aren't prosecuted.

Now, there is no national database, but Texas keeps records. A large border, state with plenty of illegals. What do you think they found?

Edited February 16, 2020 by Californication

[Estil | 1,264]

Agreed, Gloves.  As much as Trump loves to call out fake news (whether or not it is indeed fake news is a whole 'nother matter of course) I think fake racism (yes that term most definitely needs to catch on just as much as "fake news" has) is a far worse problem and it ends up hurting and sometime half-ruining lives of a lot of innocent people.  Not to mention we all know how that whole crying wolf/racist thing worked out in the end, right?

And I think this would make a perfect PSA for this sort of thing about not assuming those (especially regular rank and file folks like us on here) who hold different viewpoints than you must have some sort of evil intentions or something.  I imagine nearly all of our leaders on a personal behind the scenes level are at the end of the day, like Ainsley says here most likely are good intentioned and believe what they are doing is patriotic and what is best for our country.  And all of us from the world leaders down to us common folk have to go #1 and #2 the same as anyone else.

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Estil

[Estil | 1,264]

3 minutes ago, Californication said:

I didn't call him racist. I said he has racist ideas on his head.

That's virtually the same thing.

[Californication | 1,477]

1 minute ago, Estil said:

That's virtually the same thing.

It's really not. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he isn't racist and that he has misinformation.

Why don't you have anything to say about my response?

Edited February 16, 2020 by Californication

[Gloves | 11,777]

I have zero information about any of this, I'm only really interested in making sure we have a civil discourse, so all I can say is that there's a difference IMO in being misinformed and "having racist ideas in your head". 

I simply think you could have been more tactful; I don't believe that racism is the root or intention here. I don't know if he's misinformed, but at least from my discussion (which each of you here, really) I can say that you're all at least pretty reasonable. So let's stick to "I believe you're misinformed" rather than jumping to the racism bullet, eh? It's just too fragile a subject, people can easily misinterpret each others' wording, and we don't want fights here (it's unnecessary).

So yeah, just be reasonable and consider assuming the best of each other, even when you disagree. We can agree on that at least?

[Estil | 1,264]

2 minutes ago, Californication said:

It's really not. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he isn't racist and that he has misinformation.

Why don't you have anything tk say about my response?

Just simply this, being wrong =/= being racist.  And you know how history tends to repeat itself?  Well decades ago it was the Red Scare, today it's the Racist Scare.  Back then it was HUAC (House Unamerican Activities Committee) now it's UIAC's (University Intolerant Activities Committees).

Our country is based on presumption of innocence...we most definitely can do without presumption of racist.

[Californication | 1,477]

11 minutes ago, Estil said:

Just simply this, being wrong =/= being racist.  And you know how history tends to repeat itself?  Well decades ago it was the Red Scare, today it's the Racist Scare.  Back then it was HUAC (House Unamerican Activities Committee) now it's UIAC's (University Intolerant Activities Committees).

Our country is based on presumption of innocence...we most definitely can do without presumption of racist.

You didn't respond to anything I said. I was very specific about what I have an issue with.

Edit: Right exactly, people are presumed innocent, why does he think all Illegal Mexican's commit felonies?

Edited February 16, 2020 by Californication

[Estil | 1,264]

2 minutes ago, Californication said:

You didn't respond to anything I said. I was very specific about what I have an issue with.

I thought i mostly did (I agree that the statement "Virtually all illegals are felons" is totally wrong unless illegally entering the country is in of itself a felony (which I'm pretty sure its not), which as I've previously gone on record before it's far better to focus on the biggest fish; the ones who are flagrantly violent felons, the biggest drug dealers, and so on).  Which part especially do you want my take on?

[Californication | 1,477]

Just now, Estil said:

I thought i mostly did (I agree that the statement "Virtually all illegals are felons" is totally wrong unless illegally entering the country is in of itself a felony (which I'm pretty sure its not), which as I've previously gone on record before it's far better to focus on the biggest fish; the ones who are flagrantly violent felons, the biggest drug dealers, and so on).  Which part especially do you want my take on?

That is my main issue, thank you.

[Tabonga | 2,317]

 

@Californication

OK - you did use the word commit in your one post as opposed to convicted - there is a world of difference,  But we will go with commit since that was your preference.

Most people (of an illegal persuasion - whether from across the border or visa overstays ( wherever they came from - be it ,  Norway, Ireland, Andorra, French Guiana, Belize or any other country)  ostensibly come here to work,   

If they work "off the books"  (even in criminal endeavors)  that is a felony in and of itself.  (Basically considered tax evasion - check on why Al Capone went to the slammer.)

If they file an I9 and lie on it anywhere (or use counterfeit supporting documents) that is a felony/ies (on a federal level since it is a federal document) this is mentioned on the form itself - by signing one acknowledges that.  Particularly apt to this discussion is the section where one declares their eligibility to work in the u.s.  There is no box that states one is illegally here (and by implication would somehow be eligible to work if it was on the form).  Just isn't there.

Using a social security number not assigned to you is also a felony - not strictly needed for an I9* but often used since it is perhaps the most available document (and the most  easily forged one (but also equally detectible if you can be bothered to give it even the most cursory of glances - I saw at least 10 counterfeits while I was working in HR)).  Using  a SSN that is not yours on a tax return is also a felony.   If you use someone else's name and their SSN that is also identity theft - yet another felony.

*This has changed vis a vis e-verify (if used by the employer) since I retired - in which case a SSN is needed for the I9.

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Wandering Tellurian

[Estil | 1,264]

You're welcome.  That's another thing we all should be careful of is the absolutist fallacy (or whatever it's called).  You know, terms like: "You always..." or "You never..." or "Everybody..." or "Nobody..."  For those of you still in school and you come across a true/false question with those kind of terms, it's probably false.

[Californication | 1,477]

"Dog Whistle - is political messaging employing coded language that appears to mean one thing to the population of the general public at large while also simultaneously having an additional, different, or specific resonance with a targeted subgroup."

Edited February 16, 2020 by Californication

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

49 minutes ago, Estil said:

Agreed, Gloves.  As much as Trump loves to call out fake news (whether or not it is indeed fake news is a whole 'nother matter of course) I think fake racism (yes that term most definitely needs to catch on just as much as "fake news" has) is a far worse problem and it ends up hurting and sometime half-ruining lives of a lot of innocent people.  Not to mention we all know how that whole crying wolf/racist thing worked out in the end, right?

And I think this would make a perfect PSA for this sort of thing about not assuming those (especially regular rank and file folks like us on here) who hold different viewpoints than you must have some sort of evil intentions or something.  I imagine nearly all of our leaders on a personal behind the scenes level are at the end of the day, like Ainsley says here most likely are good intentioned and believe what they are doing is patriotic and what is best for our country.  And all of us from the world leaders down to us common folk have to go #1 and #2 the same as anyone else.

 

Can you provide some examples of “fake racism”?