Goemon 2 & 3 for SNES Have Been Translated

[Jono1874 | 144]

Translator was absolutely harassed. HG101 could have easily just sent a PM to the guy to voice his concern, but instead decided to concern troll to his 14K followers.  There was an article that breaks down everything pretty damn good but I can't find it anymore.  

 

 

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

Exactly, the guy responsible for this doesn't genuinely care about the word, he just wanted to bully someone out of the hobby, while his followers just wanted something to bitch at. To that end it doesn't matter what the word would have been translated as  since unless it was completely rewritten they still would have found an issue with it.

Edited February 2, 2020 by PineappleLawnchair

[Sho | 25]

I think the greatest point is that the guy just wanted the translation to be faithful to the period the game was produced in.  Nothing more, nothing less.  He chose the word that would in his opinion closely represent it from Japanese.  Essentially from what I'm reading here most, if not all, Japanese/translated words used regarding "newhalf" are seen as offensive on some level, so there was never going to be a way to avoid it.

People chose to take it far more serious than it should be due to reasons.  Essentially people really have nothing better to do than to argue on social media about stuff like this.  This social media "woke" bully culture really is the worst type of thing.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

5 hours ago, fox said:

^Totally agree with this.  The original language has its problems too, but would have been more accurate and less biased.

Newhalf? That's not an English word, right? Reminds me personally if halflings, I wouldn't have a clue what it was other than from this thread and seeing the other translation.

I think the translator was probably in the right, actually.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

40 minutes ago, Sho said:

People chose to take it far more serious than it should be due to reasons.  Essentially people really have nothing better to do than to argue on social media about stuff like this.  This social media "woke" bully culture really is the worst type of thing.

I'd be curious how "offensive" books are translated across languages. Something like Huck Finn, for example, well it's originally in English, but I'd wonder how something from a much older period with offensive language or words would be brought over to English in this day and age 

[Sho | 25]

46 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I'd be curious how "offensive" books are translated across languages. Something like Huck Finn, for example, well it's originally in English, but I'd wonder how something from a much older period with offensive language or words would be brought over to English in this day and age 

From what my one translator buddy (English > Spanish > Chinese translator) has mentioned to me in the past, translators have a lot of power when it comes to both on-the-fly as well as written translation work.  Not only is a translator trying to convey a word, but also the tone surrounding it's use, be it a lighthearted one or serious.  Then they also have to take into account the general culture surrounding the target language's audience.

Something like Huck Finn should be even more interesting seeing as the original story is now well over 130 years old and uses a lot of outdated English terms, not to speak of offensive ones.  It's such an interesting question I'll see if I can't ask my friend his opinion tomorrow see what he says.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

@Sho I'd be very curious to hear what your friend says, I'm quite interested in languages and literature , I think it's an interesting situation.

[guillavoie | 1,208]

I'm not sure exactly what I find the most ridiculous in this whole translation scandal, the fact that using 'tranny' for 'newhalf' in one line of dialogue in a fan made translation of a 30 years old Japanese game can create such a storm of outrage on social media, or the fact that the translator in question is so affected by the outrage that he decides to back out from doing something he obviously was passionate about. Two tempests in a very small water glass IMO.

[cj_robot | 542]

Accuracy means more than just literally translating each word. 

"I'm actually a tranny."

Not that "newhalf" would be any better, but I'm pretty sure no English-speaking transgender person would ever refer to themselves in that way.

[phart010 | 1,707]

11 hours ago, guillavoie said:

I'm not sure exactly what I find the most ridiculous in this whole translation scandal, the fact that using 'tranny' for 'newhalf' in one line of dialogue in a fan made translation of a 30 years old Japanese game can create such a storm of outrage on social media, or the fact that the translator in question is so affected by the outrage that he decides to back out from doing something he obviously was passionate about. Two tempests in a very small water glass IMO.

I don’t use social media but my understanding is that it can have a huge impact on people emotionally and also on mental health. Negative attention on social media can trigger depression and sucidal thoughts in some people. So deciding to quit doesn’t seem quite unbelievable 

[ifightdragons | 234]

3 hours ago, cj_robot said:

Accuracy means more than just literally translating each word. 

"I'm actually a tranny."

Not that "newhalf" would be any better, but I'm pretty sure no English-speaking transgender person would ever refer to themselves in that way.

The original developers wrote "I'm actually a newhalf". Newhalf is (and at the time, was) a somewhat derogatory term for transsexual in Japan. Hence, the most common English counterpart would be  "tranny". It's a near-perfect translation, of both original context and intent. You may not like it, but that's okay. If you're not looking to be offended, you won't really mind anyway.

And for those arguing for keeping the original word. The word newhalf would make no sense to western players, and still wouldn't be any less derogatory. It would even defeat the purpose of doing a translation in the first place if you had to look up the meaning of words whilst playing. If you have any issues, take it up with Konami, and leave the man who worked his ass off to bring the game to the masses alone.

[cj_robot | 542]

3 hours ago, ifightdragons said:

The original developers wrote "I'm actually a newhalf". Newhalf is (and at the time, was) a somewhat derogatory term for transsexual in Japan. Hence, the most common English counterpart would be  "tranny". It's a near-perfect translation, of both original context and intent. You may not like it, but that's okay. If you're not looking to be offended, you won't really mind anyway. 

My point was that proper translation is more than just translating each word. Does it really make any sense for this character to refer to themselves using a derogatory term? Was that really the intention of the original script? Does it really do any harm to change that one word to avoid controversy? In fact, does it not make more sense to change it in this context?

The line could have been, "I'm actually transgender" and I don't believe a single person on either side would have had an issue with that.

What if the Japanese script had some derogatory term for a black person? Do you really think the translator would have even considered using the n-word in that case? Who would seriously be that dumb? And how is this particular case any different, other than the fact that transgender people don't have as long a history of having to stand up for their rights?

I don't believe the translator should have been harrassed for this, however. But it doesn't mean he was right.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

@cj_robot :  The way you are suggesting translation here just doesn't work in many situations, Huck Finn I had already brought up as an example.

Good translations aren't just about translating word for word, but also conveying the same meaning / sense / feeling of the source. 

edit: Maybe I'm the odd one out here, but I personally think it's worse to harass someone relentlessly over a translation than anything the translator may have done "wrong", especially after he even had apologized.

Edited February 3, 2020 by fcgamer

[scaryice | 585]

3 hours ago, cj_robot said:

My point was that proper translation is more than just translating each word. Does it really make any sense for this character to refer to themselves using a derogatory term? Was that really the intention of the original script? Does it really do any harm to change that one word to avoid controversy? In fact, does it not make more sense to change it in this context?

The line could have been, "I'm actually transgender" and I don't believe a single person on either side would have had an issue with that.

 

Exactly, this is why it's a bad translation. He went out of his way to offend people when it wasn't necessary.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

28 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

@cj_robot :  The way you are suggesting translation here just doesn't work in many situations, Huck Finn I had already brought up as an example.

 

He's not suggesting retranslating the n-word in Huck Finn to something else, as that book was already established canon, and many translations note the controversy.

This on the other hand is a game that has been translated for a modern audience, one more accepting of transgender people. The translator could have included a note somewhere that the original word was "newhalf," but that this translation has been updated to the more accepted term "transgender." That would have addressed the original, but also kept the translator in the clear. As @cj_robot said, a transgender person wouldn't refer to themselves as a "tranny," even back then.

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Tulpa

[fcgamer | 4,723]

38 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

He's not suggesting retranslating the n-word in Huck Finn to something else, as that book was already established canon, and many translations note the controversy.

This on the other hand is a game that has been translated for a modern audience, one more accepting of transgender people. The translator could have included a note somewhere that the original word was "newhalf," but that this translation has been updated to the more accepted term "transgender." That would have addressed the original, but also kept the translator in the clear. As @cj_robot said, a transgender person wouldn't refer to themselves as a "tranny," even back then.

 

I know that @cj_robot is not suggesting that they go back and rework classic literature and remove contraversial bits via replacing words and what not. All I am pointing out though is that as a whole, we shouldn't be using today's accepted norms to be looking at works of the past, whether it be twenty years ago, fifty, or more. As was also pointed out, back in the day , transgendered wouldn't be referring to themselves as newhalfs either.

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by fcgamer

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

1 hour ago, Tulpa said:

 As @cj_robot said, a transgender person wouldn't refer to themselves as a "tranny," even back then.

So what. The character is a cartoonish depiction of a transexual, presumably written as a cheap joke by a Transphobe. what a real transexual would say and do in this situation is not applicable.

 

1 hour ago, scaryice said:

Exactly, this is why it's a bad translation. He went out of his way to offend people when it wasn't necessary.

That's the thing with translation i don't think people get, they are not, i repeat NOT writers, merely interpreters. Rewriting the author's original intent rather than treating it as a work of it's time should generally be frowned upon in any work, especially if you think Video Games are Art, which many people seem to.

 

13 minutes ago, Nintegageo said:

Which one is the transphobe? And how do you know they are?

 

Should be somewhat obvious who i'm talking about given what i say after that, and i should've added a "presumably". My mistake.

Edited February 3, 2020 by PineappleLawnchair

[Nintegageo | 582]

Which one is the transphobe? And how do you know they are?

Edited February 3, 2020 by Nintegageo

[Tulpa | 3,492]

29 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

All I am pointing out though is that as a whole, we shouldn't be using today's accepted norms to be looking at works of the past, whether it be twenty years ago, fifty, or more.

 

Why not? We do that with "modern translations" all the time. Often with disclaimers about the originals. Doing that covers everything, original text and being inclusive for a modern audience.

This isn't a classic work of literature, it's a Goemon game with a translation for today's audience. The original term could be kept as a note in the credits, or in some other way.

This is such a weird hill for some of you to die on.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Tulpa

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

40 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Why not? We do that with "modern translations" all the time.

and they are often regarded as terrible and people complain about those all the time, especially if they were done from NISA and NoA.

 

40 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Doing that covers everything, original text and being inclusive for a modern audience.

This isn't a classic work of literature, it's a Goemon game with a translation for today's audience.

"It's [current year]" is not a valid reason for anything.  Children aren't going to be looking away from PS4/5, Xbone or Fortnite to play this game, and it should be expected that adults handle things like this better than they did.

Edited February 3, 2020 by PineappleLawnchair

[fox | 1,667]

4 hours ago, cj_robot said:

What if the Japanese script had some derogatory term for a black person? Do you really think the translator would have even considered using the n-word in that case? Who would seriously be that dumb? And how is this particular case any different, other than the fact that transgender people don't have as long a history of having to stand up for their rights?

They would defend the n-word too.  Anything to be edgy to get to get people triggered is a victory remember.  Just like their hero, pewdiepie.

[phart010 | 1,707]

I find it strange that people complain about localizations so much and are more in favor of direct translations. But for this one thing everyone is saying it should have been localized instead of translated.

[Nintegageo | 582]

I know people who use the word 'retarded' without a second thought. I honestly hate the word, and yet I know that these are good people who are not trying to hurt or offend anyone when they use the word. I have no doubt the guy regrets translating it as he did, but I think it is possible and even likely that he he translated it with his everyday lingo.

I know nothing about the guy or the game, but I think people need to stop jumping to anger and aggression when it comes to these things.

[cj_robot | 542]

26 minutes ago, phart010 said:

I find it strange that people complain about localizations so much and are more in favor of direct translations. But for this one thing everyone is saying it should have been localized instead of translated.

It's all about how far you go with the localization. I believe most people want an accurate translation, but where people differ in opinion is how far the translater goes in adapting the work to the different culture. Some people seem to want 100% authenticity. Personally, I have no problem when Nintendo does things like removing the sexualization of teenage girls or racist stereotypes from their games for Western markets. I'd say this particular line in the Goemon translation falls into that category for me. Obviously, there are also those who would rather keep everything intact, or as close as possible I guess, regardless of how people may react.

Edited February 3, 2020 by cj_robot

[cj_robot | 542]

11 minutes ago, Nintegageo said:

I know nothing about the guy or the game, but I think people need to stop jumping to anger and aggression when it comes to these things.

Yes. The thing is, if somebody politely told him, "Hey man, this will probably piss people off, you might consider changing that bit..." he may have actually listened. Instead people had to act like douchebags and start posting hateful things towards him on Twitter. Ya know, because it's important to be respectful of others, you evil racist Nazi scumbag!

<insert Captain Picard facepalm here>