PineappleLawnchair | 88 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, cj_robot said: What we'd like is for bigotry to end, not for you to simply accommodate us with a bigotry-free zone for us to live in. I'm sure you think that sounds nice, but all this argument is really saying is it doesn't really matter if the guy censored the patch anyways, because as long as the one with the word "tranny" exists, he won't be absolved of his sins, and thus, subjected further to the witch hunt. 35 minutes ago, Sumez said: Why is it so damn hard to accept that fact that someone can get hurt by something? More like why should everyone else have to suffer because someone got hurt by something. Someone who isn't even a transexual, at that. Edited February 4, 2020 by PineappleLawnchair 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPX | 1,369 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, cj_robot said: This isn't about content that someone just doesn't like. This is about including words that are actually insulting to a group of people. This is about a derogatory term continuing to be used, when it needs to be put to an end. So a translator has insulted a group of people. How does it make it any better that the core group caused a mental breakdown of the translator? Some can't tolerate a word, but the same people can tolerate someone being caused a mental breakdown? Doesn't seem right/fair. Tolerance and respect goes both ways, not unidirectional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj_robot | 540 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 11 minutes ago, GPX said: So a translator has insulted a group of people. How does it make it any better that the core group caused a mental breakdown of the translator? Some can't tolerate a word, but the same people can tolerate someone being caused a mental breakdown? Doesn't seem right/fair. Tolerance and respect goes both ways, not unidirectional. Read through these comments. Nobody here is condoning the harassment that this individual received. Yes, the people who competely flip out and start hurling disgusting insults at people for things like this can be just as bad (or worse) than the people they are fighting against. But that doesn't justify the original action, nor should it stop decent, reasonable people from having civilized conversations about the issue. Again, I give the translator the benefit of doubt, and believe him when he says he didn't realize the impact it would have, and I competely understand the motivation of trying to complete an as accurate as possible work. But the real issue here is that there are people who still don't understand that certain kinds of language simply are not socially acceptable, and are actually legitimately hurtful to groups of people. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 5 hours ago, ifightdragons said: I'd suggest people not being so easily offended is just as viable a solution That's not your choice to make. You don't get to decide what offends someone. Human beings are allowed to have feelings and if you are a person with compassion, you should take their feelings into account. If you don't care about how your actions and words could upset another person's feelings, then you are a shitty person. I'm not saying you are personally. I'm just saying people in general. In general now: The thing with this, is that actions have consequences. Literally no one in this thread is approving of the attacks towards the translator. That should not have happened. But also, the word should not have been used. Actions have consequences. Sometimes you know this and do it anyway. Sometimes you don't, and it's a learning experience. Unfortunately, it was a really bad case of people attacking this guy. It shouldn't have happened. But those were the consequences to his actions which could have been avoided by putting a little more thought into his choices. The attackers were wrong. But you can't control the actions of other people. You can only control your own actions. Imagine this shitstorm being avoided because someone put more consideration into a small choice they made. But that's life and it happens. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPX | 1,369 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 47 minutes ago, cj_robot said: Read through these comments. Nobody here is condoning the harassment that this individual received. Yes, the people who competely flip out and start hurling disgusting insults at people for things like this can be just as bad (or worse) than the people they are fighting against. But that doesn't justify the original action, nor should it stop decent, reasonable people from having civilized conversations about the issue. Again, I give the translator the benefit of doubt, and believe him when he says he didn't realize the impact it would have, and I competely understand the motivation of trying to complete an as accurate as possible work. But the real issue here is that there are people who still don't understand that certain kinds of language simply are not socially acceptable, and are actually legitimately hurtful to groups of people. The problem is that some people are taking a very simplistic viewpoint on this matter. The bottom line is that the translator is going to offend someone regardless: - uses a word (assuming with a fair intention) that may offend certain demographics => political correctness backlash. - uses a more tame word to not offend anyone (effectively turning a 15+ -rating to a General-rating) => would possibly pee off the gamers who would want a more authentic translation (including cultural translations). Honestly, if you or anyone genuinely wants a world where nobody is insulted, then basically we need to bar the majority of Mature-rated games and movies. This goes against the grain of freedom of speech and free will. And how I see it, is that some would want free choice but also want others to think just like they do (which ironically, isn't free choice). (By the way, I'm not taking this topic lightly. I work in the health field and have dealt with several transgenders as part of my work. ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki | 4,932 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 On 1/31/2020 at 8:54 AM, fcgamer said: When translating, one has to take into account both literal meaning as well as flow / rythm, it's why some liberties must be made when translating poetry or literature. I'd much prefer a translation that is accurate and captures the spirit or the time to one that has been censored or changed to fit better with the new audience's feelings and norms. I'm very, very disappointed at what I've seen here. Total agreement here. Kurt and the rest should be ashamed of themselves being true online trolls putting words, political leanings, and their own baggage on this guy they knew nothing about who is now suddenly right wing (assume much), hateful (really?), and the rest. Whatever. People need to grow up and re-learn how to internalize their own baggage a bit as snowflake rage is getting to be a bit overkill now isn't it? Good on the translator to as Kurt put it, for doing a non-apology because that IS what they deserve, no apology, just throwing it back on them for their own bad behavior blowing up a non-issue with a literal translation. Might as well rage on Konami right? We are in the era of shaming and destroying people not just for now, but what they did years or decades ago as we've seen anyway with online trolls ruining others. I pity some of the people in this thread for taking more swipes at this guy, get over yourselves. People always have to label each other, even if they're not even accurate or even in the ballpark. I pity that translator, feel bad for the guy, there was NO reason at all other than to stir the pot and stir up left leaning online rage monkeys against that guy who didn't have it coming in the least bit. I know he's upset now, and I wouldn't blame him for quitting translation, but if this put him off not just that but reading the language, playing video games, enjoying the culture, all I can throw are 2 big middle fingers of disapproval to those disgusting pigs as it's just not right ruining someone because of your own personal biases you can't keep under control. Yes I think he's being a bit dramatic, but how many here have had 14K people attacking you relentlessly online? Hell we've repeatedly seen stories online of far less trolling at a school level with some kid on the end of a bottle of pills, with a gun on the floor, or dangling from a rope for online bullying which IS exactly what this is. ifightdragons, that post about 5 hours ago, good on you. Having to make everything so sterile and neutral as to maybe, likely, perhaps so, not sorta offend someone somewhere somehow in every piece of writing, audio, visual is a joke and unacceptable. Censorship is a dangerous road to go down and in the end it's the complainers own baggage at play here. It's not a one sided deal where others can decide if anything is offensive and you deal with it, they as much so have to deal with it and decide if they want to be offended or not. I for one lean on leaving the original script as is, that's what the company intended, and the english adaptation was as close to accurate as possible. IF someone wants to rage out, go pee on Konami's leg for doing it in the first place and see how far that gets you as it's far harder to destroy them than some random dude doing a free service for others. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki | 4,932 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) Glitched, double post Edited February 4, 2020 by Tanooki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifightdragons | 234 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said: That's not your choice to make. You don't get to decide what offends someone. Human beings are allowed to have feelings and if you are a person with compassion, you should take their feelings into account. If you don't care about how your actions and words could upset another person's feelings, then you are a shitty person. I'm not saying you are personally. I'm just saying people in general. In general now: The thing with this, is that actions have consequences. Literally no one in this thread is approving of the attacks towards the translator. That should not have happened. But also, the word should not have been used. Actions have consequences. Sometimes you know this and do it anyway. Sometimes you don't, and it's a learning experience. Unfortunately, it was a really bad case of people attacking this guy. It shouldn't have happened. But those were the consequences to his actions which could have been avoided by putting a little more thought into his choices. The attackers were wrong. But you can't control the actions of other people. You can only control your own actions. Imagine this shitstorm being avoided because someone put more consideration into a small choice they made. But that's life and it happens. Since you clearly didn't read or deliberately chose to omit what I prefaced that statement with, it's hard trying to engage in an honest discussion with you. I'm not making the assumption it's my choice to make. Regarding your statements I've bolded: You're putting one hundred percent of the responsibility on the offender instead of the offended, without any deliberation or regard as to how justified the offended party might or might not be. If anyone has the right to be offended by anything, and then ALSO have the right to then modify the behaviors which offended them... How can you not see the huge societal ramifications this would cause? It's quite staggering, to say the least. Edited February 4, 2020 by ifightdragons 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, ifightdragons said: Since you clearly didn't read or deliberately chose to omit what I prefaced that statement with, it's hard trying to engage in an honest discussion with you. I'm not making the assumption it's my choice to make. I read and understood your whole point and the point you are trying to make. I quoted only the part I was directly responding to. If you want to elaborate, how did I misinterpret "I'd suggest people not being so easily offended is just as viable a solution"? What was the actual meaning behind this statement since you claim I don't understand or are omitting information? To me, it seems you are .... suggesting people not be so easily offended. ... But as I said, that's not up to you. So what am I missing? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki | 4,932 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 It may not be up to him, but it's just as much so for the other party not to choose to be a venom spitting social crusader over every single thing they find they don't agree with or like in life. It's far easier to just let things go, especially when it's not going to cause some cataclysmic result. You can't have it one way telling him he's wrong without discounting the other side being just as terrible too being entirely a choice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Just now, Tanooki said: It may not be up to him, but it's just as much so for the other party not to choose to be a venom spitting social crusader over every single thing they find they don't agree with or like in life. It's far easier to just let things go, especially when it's not going to cause some cataclysmic result. You can't have it one way telling him he's wrong without discounting the other side being just as terrible too being entirely a choice. Literally read my post where I said what those people did was wrong. No one is condoning it man. But you can only control your own actions and emotions. Choose to not be upset about something if you want to. But you can't stop someone else from being upset about something and you don't get to decide whether someone else being upset about something is the right or wrong emotion/reaction. You may not agree with it but that doesn't mean it's wrong. It's not about censoring and limiting free speech, it's about having a little common decency and social awareness. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifightdragons | 234 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 5 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said: I read and understood your whole point and the point you are trying to make. I quoted only the part I was directly responding to. If you want to elaborate, how did I misinterpret "I'd suggest people not being so easily offended is just as viable a solution"? What was the actual meaning behind this statement since you claim I don't understand or are omitting information? To me, it seems you are .... suggesting people not be so easily offended. ... But as I said, that's not up to you. So what am I missing? If you actually quote the full sentence, instead of partially, you should see why I said that. It was in response to the previous poster's comments. You're missing the entire point and why it was made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki | 4,932 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) I would agree with that, but the problem is that last bit you said, a little common decency. The issue here is this guy wasn't even trying to run out there and troll like some antifa clown on the left, or some milo flame thrower on the right either. Yet there was zero common decency given or allowed with this guy and even when he explained what was up and how he felt, more gas was thrown on the fire instead of just dropping it. Social awareness only goes so far in translation as others said, might as well drop ni**er from some classic novel as pointed out because someone will get butt hurt. Sure goemon isn't some award winning book, but it's a 30 year old video game about, and it wasn't sanitized to protect the fragile. I know I won't win any awards here, but back when I was fairly decent at elementary school level Japanese 20 years ago I used to translate a few things, and I for one will throw my two cents, I would have done what the author of this translation did too, keep to the script. I just wouldn't have engaged the online whiners and they would have had to pound sand to a wall of smug silence as I'm no into censoring for the sensitive. Edited February 4, 2020 by Tanooki 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumez | 2,949 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 1 hour ago, PineappleLawnchair said: More like why should everyone else have to suffer because someone got hurt by something. No one is defending that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineappleLawnchair | 88 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 1 minute ago, Sumez said: No one is defending that. Yet at the same time it's being justified, with lines like "actions have consequences". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Just now, Tanooki said: I would agree with that, but the problem is that last bit you said, a little common decency. The issue here is this guy wasn't even trying to run out there and troll like some antifa clown on the left, or some milo flame thrower on the right either. Yet there was zero common decency given or allowed with this guy and even when he explained what was up and how he felt, more gas was thrown on the fire instead of just dropping it. Social awareness only goes so far in translation as others said, might as well drop ni**er from some classic novel as pointed out because someone will get butt hurt. Sure goemon isn't some award winning book, but it's a 30 year old video game about, and it wasn't sanitized to protect the fragile. So, my original point being, which seems to have been missed, is you can't control other people's actions. You can't control that there was not common decency used when everyone attacked the guy. What was in his control was the original choice he made, which after more consideration may have been different and avoided this mess. That's all I'm trying to say here. But, someone referring to transgender people who might be offended at the use of a slur against them as "butthurt" and "fragile" probably isn't going to agree with me, so, don't worry about trying to understand what I'm saying I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 1 minute ago, PineappleLawnchair said: Yet at the same time it's being justified, with lines like "actions have consequences". LOL because they do! I'm not justifying it! I'm saying that is literally life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki | 4,932 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Oh no I got it. My point is those choosing to get offended are making a choice, and that is to not be decent or show any common sense, that's it. Yes he could have chosen to butcher that piece of the translation, he did not. I for one had been doing it, I would have taken the hit too in the name of keeping to the script. You're assuming a lot because I used those words. And while butt hurt may be rude, fragile is on the nose. The people attacking over that word being used are being fragile and militant. They chose to try and destroy someone instead of just either letting it go, keeping quiet, or being more considerate and sending an email/IM to the guy and explaining the issue. For all we know, had he been given a quiet response by someone less looking to pick a fight, he could have patched it out. So yeah, fragile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Listen, let's say you accidentally leave your leftover dinner out on the table. The dog gets on the table and eats it. It's poisonous to dogs, and the dog dies. You can't control the actions of the dog. You can't get mad at the dog. The dog does what it wants. You can control the fact that you never should have left the food out in the first place. You didn't mean to kill the dog. But you still did it. Your actions, have consequences. I don't know how else to put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki | 4,932 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 False equivalent entirely. Accidentally basically manslaughtering a dog is not on the same level as saying tranny. Tranny isn't going to make a transexual have a heart attack and die on contact with the word because it's poison to them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulpa | 3,492 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 7 minutes ago, Tanooki said: I would agree with that, but the problem is that last bit you said, a little common decency. The issue here is this guy wasn't even trying to run out there and troll like some antifa clown on the left, or some milo flame thrower on the right either. Yet there was zero common decency given or allowed with this guy and even when he explained what was up and how he felt, more gas was thrown on the fire instead of just dropping it. Social awareness only goes so far in translation as others said, might as well drop ni**er from some classic novel as pointed out because someone will get butt hurt. Sure goemon isn't some award winning book, but it's a 30 year old video game about, and it wasn't sanitized to protect the fragile. I know I won't win any awards here, but back when I was fairly decent at elementary school level Japanese 20 years ago I used to translate a few things, and I for one will throw my two cents, I would have done what the author of this translation did too, keep to the script. I just wouldn't have engaged the online whiners and they would have had to pound sand to a wall of smug silence as I'm no into censoring for the sensitive. You do realize that you're referring to a group of human beings and their whole Identity. A group who has historically been harassed, injured, and killed for simply being who they are. They only ask that you not perpetuate the bigotry, and yet you deride them as fragile and sensitive. One even posted here laying out their position. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineappleLawnchair | 88 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said: LOL because they do! I'm not justifying it! I'm saying that is literally life. And i'm saying that doesn't make it acceptable. Overreactions shouldn't be considered okay merely because a reaction should be expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulpa | 3,492 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Tanooki said: Tranny isn't going to make a transexual have a heart attack and die on contact with the word because it's poison to them. No, but it continues the process of hate. Edited February 4, 2020 by Tulpa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifightdragons | 234 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said: Listen, let's say you accidentally leave your leftover dinner out on the table. The dog gets on the table and eats it. It's poisonous to dogs, and the dog dies. You can't control the actions of the dog. You can't get mad at the dog. The dog does what it wants. You can control the fact that you never should have left the food out in the first place. You didn't mean to kill the dog. But you still did it. Your actions, have consequences. I don't know how else to put it. You do realize that you and the offended party are the dog in this awkwardly constructed similé? And that you are wrong, because you do have control of your actions and even your emotions. The dog hardly does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifightdragons | 234 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tulpa said: You do realize that you're referring to a group of human beings and their whole Identity. A group who has historically been harassed, injured, and killed for simply being who they are. They only ask that you not perpetuate the bigotry, and yet you deride them as fragile and sensitive. One even posted here laying out their position. So what if "one" (as you put it) posted here? The post had its serious flaws, and is not considered holy as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts