Goemon 2 & 3 for SNES Have Been Translated

[Sumez | 2,933]

6 hours ago, scaryice said:

Exactly, this is why it's a bad translation. He went out of his way to offend people when it wasn't necessary.

I'd agree, except I trust the translator when he stated that he didn't intend to offend, and didn't realise the word he chose was considered offensive.
The people jumping to his defense in for the sake of "accurately translating a term intended to be offensive" (which is also mistaken IMO, the original text was inconsiderate, but hardly  intended to be offensive) are completely misunderstanding his intentions, and so are the people attacking him for that matter.

On 2/2/2020 at 12:09 AM, Jono1874 said:

Translator was absolutely harassed. HG101 could have easily just sent a PM to the guy to voice his concern, but instead decided to concern troll to his 14K followers. 

This is the core issue.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Sumez

[Sumez | 2,933]

3 hours ago, phart010 said:

I find it strange that people complain about localizations so much and are more in favor of direct translations. But for this one thing everyone is saying it should have been localized instead of translated.

By translating "newhalf" into "tranny", it IS being localized. People are arguing that a 90s offensive Japanese term should be switched out for a modern English offensive term (literally localizing!), while arguing that "translations shouldn't be localizations".
Do people think "localizing" just mean "poorly translating" or something?

Using "newhalf" would be a direct translation. As people are saying here, that word wouldn't mean a lot to most English speakers, and that's exactly why translators usually localize cultural terms like these. Again, it seems like people don't really know what they want, they just want to complain.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Sumez

[MuNKeY | 241]

8 hours ago, phart010 said:

I find it strange that people complain about localizations so much and are more in favor of direct translations. But for this one thing everyone is saying it should have been localized instead of translated.

 

4 hours ago, Sumez said:

By translating "newhalf" into "tranny", it IS being localized. People are arguing that a 90s offensive Japanese term should be switched out for a modern English offensive term (literally localizing!), while arguing that "translations shouldn't be localizations".
Do people think "localizing" just mean "poorly translating" or something?

Using "newhalf" would be a direct translation. As people are saying here, that word wouldn't mean a lot to most English speakers, and that's exactly why translators usually localize cultural terms like these. Again, it seems like people don't really know what they want, they just want to complain.

 

This, IMHO, even if he left it as "newhalf" or reworded it or the entire line to something more "appropriate" someone would still had gone out of their way to make an issue over it.  

[Tulpa | 3,488]

14 hours ago, PineappleLawnchair said:

 

"It's [current year]" is not a valid reason for anything.  Children aren't going to be looking away from PS4/5, Xbone or Fortnite to play this game, and it should be expected that adults handle things like this better than they did.

So an adult transgender person playing this game should just get over it?

A person translating this for a modern audience should take that into consideration. Using a slur to replace a questionable word is not acceptable.

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

34 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

So an adult transgender person playing this game should just get over it?

Or stop playing it, and see if someone makes a special censored version just for you, and i'm pretty sure that happened. Hell, maybe even ask if the guy could make one. Really anything other than "crucify the translator for sins" is better.

Edited February 3, 2020 by PineappleLawnchair

[Tulpa | 3,488]

47 minutes ago, PineappleLawnchair said:

Or stop playing it, and see if someone makes a special censored version just for you, and i'm pretty sure that happened. Hell, maybe even ask if the guy could make one. Really anything other than "crucify the translator for sins" is better.

I'm not saying it was right to crucify the translator, but "tranny" is 1) not really the correct translation anyway and 2) a slur. So the translator is not accurate, and not inclusive. He's not in the right here.

 

And "making a special version" smacks of the old "separate but equal" doctrine. That didn't work out well.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Tulpa

[Mugi | 83]

53 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I'm not saying it was right to crucify the translator, but "tranny" is 1) not really the correct translation anyway and 2) a slur. So the translator is not accurate, and not inclusive. He's not in the right here.

 

And "making a special version" smacks of the old "separate but equal" doctrine. That didn't work out well.

so you're not fine with is work, but you're not fine with him making an alternate version either, instead the only good solution is to force your way of thinking into everyone as an absolute truth. Leave it up to the the special snowflakes to get offended by everything and then demand justice by shitting on others.

To say he's not right in his work is insulting at best. it's just as right as he sees fit to translate it since it is his interpretation of the work. The one perk of being a fan translator is that you actually dont have to bend ass-backwards over every damn hippie getting offended by everything ever. If you're not fine with it, how about you just translate the game yourself instead of demanding him to change his work ? no ? I though so too.

this whole fiasco almost cost me a very dear friend on top of wrecking a translation project i poured years of my time and hundreds of dollars of cash from my own pocket to create and just reading bigoted comments about it like this makes me boil.

[Tulpa | 3,488]

7 minutes ago, Mugi said:

so you're not fine with is work, but you're not fine with him making an alternate version either, instead the only good solution is to force your way of thinking into everyone as an absolute truth.

Uh, no, I'm not forcing my way of thinking onto him, I'm suggesting not using a slur that marginalizes a segment of the human population. If the original had a questionable word for African Americans, and he chose to use the n-word, would we be having this conversation? I think not.

He has the right to translate however he sees. He doesn't have the right to be free of criticism if his choice is to use a slur. Even for fan translations.

Sorry if your friend got flack for this, but he made a poor choice.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Tulpa

[Mugi | 83]

15 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Uh, no, I'm not forcing my way of thinking onto him, I'm suggesting not using a slur that marginalizes a segment of the human population. If the original had a questionable word for African Americans, and he chose to use the n-word, would we be having this conversation? I think not.

can't speak for him but i can tell you that if i'd work on something with the n-word, i'd be damn sure to leave it there. As translators it's not our job to whitewash existing work, we translate it.

living in denial that such words exists and have been used in the past might be fine for you, but dont try to push that on other people. Again, if you cant handle the fact that it's there, play something else, or translate the game yourself in a way that it suits your own bubble instead of being true to the source material (and yes, the translation is insulting, but still fairly accurate. The T-word is certainly not the only possible word to have been used here, but like it or not, it is accurate.)

 

just for clarification before i get jumped on by the SJW's here too, i do not hate black people, or transgender people or any other kind of people either. i like people or dislike people based on whether or not they are nice people or not nice people, skin color, sexual orientation or whatever else has nothing to do with the matter (and even less being right-wing or not as was so nicely pointed out by the people attacking Tom over this. What the hell do politics have anything to do with a fan translation of a 30 years old videogame lol.)

 

edit: as far as critisism goes, Tom actually got a few civiliced comments regarding the translation suggesting that it is in bad taste and maybe should be changed, and he was fairly open to ideas and suggestions for an alternate translation.... that was until the Resetera lynch mob drove him into depression and complete abandonement of his hobby and passion by crucifying him publicly.

it is important to understand here that Tom does not possess the power to actually create the patches either. that is entirely up to the hacker (DDSTrans)

Edited February 3, 2020 by Mugi

[Sumez | 2,933]

1 hour ago, Mugi said:

living in denial that such words exists and have been used in the past might be fine for you

That was never even suggested. Please quit it with the strawmanning.

And let's not fool ourselves into thinking ROM translations serve any deeper purpose than making a game more easily available to play for people who don't understand the original language.
Tulpa isn't suggesting that we mask history or censor video games. Just that people once in a while stop to think if there would be any harm in in respecting stuff that might mean something to people other than themselves. I personally have a very hard time understanding trans people, and some times I think it's lead to me acting less respectful than I'd like. But at least I try to recognize it, and if someone tells me that something is offensive to them, it doesn't cost me anything to respect that.

And just to reiterate - that does in no way justify the way the translator was "crucified". As I've tried to point out in every post so far, I strongly disagree with the way he was put on display.

[ifightdragons | 234]

If a word in a video game offends you, or even worse, a word in a fan-translated unofficial version of a video game offends you... Get it together. I'll even go so far as to say that people should hardly take offense to any words that don't incite violence, but that's wildly unrealistic to hope for in this climate.

The word snowflake gets tossed around so much, it's all but lost its meaning. Even still, its use might offend someone here.

The guy did a fantastic job translating the game, and tranny is a perfectly suitable translation of newhalf. I'd be hard pressed to come up with something that's closer to the original writer's intent and native culture. It's originally even meant to be vulgar, and most likely a little offensive. That's a perfect reflection of life, which is also both vulgar at times, and wholly offensive everyday.

 

Disclaimer: None of this was meant to be offensive, but only sincere.

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by ifightdragons

[cj_robot | 540]

6 minutes ago, ifightdragons said:

If a word in a video game offends you, or even worse, a word in a fan-translated unofficial version of a video game offends you... Get it together. I'll even go so far as to say that people should hardly take offense to any words that don't incite violence, but that's wildly unrealistic to hope for in this climate.

I'm sorry, but you do not get to decide what should or should not offend somebody else.

[ifightdragons | 234]

And I shouldn't get to. You'd be insane to want that power, it's clearly just wishful thinking.

[Tulpa | 3,488]

46 minutes ago, ifightdragons said:

 

The guy did a fantastic job translating the game, and tranny is a perfectly suitable translation of newhalf. I'd be hard pressed to come up with something that's closer to the original writer's intent and native culture. It's originally even meant to be vulgar, and most likely a little offensive. That's a perfect reflection of life, which is also both vulgar at times, and wholly offensive everyday.

 

A character referring to themselves by a slur? I don't think so.

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

4 hours ago, Tulpa said:

And "making a special version" smacks of the old "separate but equal" doctrine. That didn't work out well.

An entertainment product containing an uncut and censored version is not the same as segregation. Neither patch is actually barred from specific people.

 

3 hours ago, Tulpa said:

Uh, no, I'm not forcing my way of thinking onto him, I'm suggesting not using a slur that marginalizes a segment of the human population. If the original had a questionable word for African Americans, and he chose to use the n-word, would we be having this conversation? I think not.

 

There'd be no point, that word gets used in games all the time, by people who are much more malicious than a "bad" translation work.

Edited February 3, 2020 by PineappleLawnchair

[kuriatsu | 65]

my thoughts on the matter are apparently unwelcome, with my being a trans woman, considering that I am not offended by the word so much as the situation itself and what it can cause.

However, I feel that the author could have chosen another word. that's the glory of interpretation and situational awareness, both I feel, are extremely important when making any adaptation, translation, or interpretation.

This translator, if hes really translated the rom as having offensive content in it under any circumstances is seemingly lacking in situational awareness.

situational awareness is something like common sense, that many are missing, it tells us, "is this ok to say given the situation". However given the "politically charged nature" of slurs against trans people, whether in japan, or in the united states, or the UK, or anywhere really....I can't understand what positives would result from having a slur of any kind in a work of any kind.

If this translator really didn't mean any harm, hes going to have to prove that inevitably, I feel, to those that are truly offended. If he didn't mean any harm, hes seemingly lacking situational awareness.

Either he intended harm, or hes lacking in situational awareness. Both are something that's going to cause an issue for a translator, that could have been avoided by changing out the word used.

Lets stop fighting about that it happened and discuss how that type of situation should be avoided.

It doesn't really matter what the intent was. What matters is the result and that people ARE offended. We can discuss at the restaurant at the end of the universe, what the intent was, and that people "should or should not be offended based on outside perspectives" but what happened and how to fix it is whats important, as well as learning from it.

Strawman arguments and false equivalency aside, how can this be avoided and/or fixed?

my apologies for my late reply as it seems as though the conversation kinda stopped.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by kuriatsu
adding info

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

Really, i'd have more sympathy if i thought the people who started the witch hunt were genuinely offended by the word, as opposed to just taking advantage of other's compassion to attack someone. That's the long and short of my issues with the whole affair, everything else is second or tertiary.

 

57 minutes ago, kuriatsu said:

Strawman arguments and false equivalency aside, how can this be avoided and/or fixed?

Since you're here, it'd be great to have your two cents on this. Say a similar situation occurs later, and the translator noticed ahead of time, would producing a uncut patch for people who prefer 100% accuracy, and a censored patch for those who don't, be an issue to you?

[kuriatsu | 65]

1 hour ago, PineappleLawnchair said:

Really, i'd have more sympathy if i thought the people who started the witch hunt were genuinely offended by the word, as opposed to just taking advantage of other's compassion to attack someone. That's the long and short of my issues with the whole affair, everything else is second or tertiary.

 

Since you're here, it'd be great to have your two cents on this. Say a similar situation occurs later, and the translator noticed ahead of time, would producing a uncut patch for people who prefer 100% accuracy, and a censored patch for those who don't, be an issue to you?

So.......You think people aren't genuinely offended by a situation the belittles and diminishes their humanity?

what compassion is taken advantage of? If you're referring to the translator making the translation, that's not compassion if it has content that offends people.

You need to ask yourself, If it has to be called "compassion" is it really? How do you determine that people aren't genuinely offended?

People have been insulting trans people for a LONG time, and we've been trying to ask people to stop, and EVERY step of the way, we've been insulted more and more and more, and many of us are buried into the ground so hard by people who call themselves "allies" but are really trying to force us to go away, honestly this entire situation feels kinda like that.

 

Yes, it'd be a massive issue because it'd just reproduce this entire situation. "100% accuracy" isn't an excuse for belittling people or making them feel like they don't matter, or worse encouraging people to make other people feel like they don't matter.

If it were a real event, or even based on a real event with a certain degree of significance, I could understand, but this is a video game that was released in the 1990s-2000s, and likely did not have a significant following. Goemon is a Japanese historical figure, but I sincerely doubt that anything in the games actually happened and as a result, does not qualify in the same vein as historical books that made a historical impact.

The fact of the matter is that people have been insulted and belittled and hurt by what has spawned of the situation. Little else matters except how to fix the situation.

The long and short of it is: it shouldn't have happened in the first place. That it happened in the first place is an issue because it hurt people.

Why would a "100% accuracy patch" released side by side with a "censored patch" make this situation different?

There's no point in adding something that belittles or hurts people.

Edited February 4, 2020 by kuriatsu
spellcheck

[Rooster | 124]

Is the translator getting paid for his work?  Or was this a volunteer kind of thing, just to make the game accessible to English speaking people?  I am out of the loop, and at work so I have no idea.

[ifightdragons | 234]

To Kuriatsu:

"Lets stop fighting about that it happened and discuss how that type of situation should be avoided"

I don't necessarily think that stuff like this should be avoided. The ramifications of limiting free speech that is not inciting violence, are possibly far beyond any short term reproach, and very likely far beyond your or my imagination. And if we are to play it your way, then I'd suggest people not being so easily offended is just as viable a solution as any other you might have thought of.

"what compassion is taken advantage of? If you're referring to the translator making the translation, that's not compassion if it has content that offends people."

Your definition of compassion is very close-minded and even iron fisted. Who's to say that we can't be compassionate if it offends someone? That puts the power of definition of intent on anyone besides the acting party. That seems like a fast way to social interaction anarchy.

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by ifightdragons

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

So basically people will cry anyways because they're too sensitive to handle to mere existence of something that might offend them, even if they're provided with accommodations so that they're not forced to ever see it. Just seems like those people should not be taken seriously then.

Edited February 4, 2020 by PineappleLawnchair

[GPX | 1,369]

I think it's very unfortunate for the translator to be harassed to the point of breakdown. I think it's important to be clear of the 2 outcomes - 1 group is offended (feeling upset) with certain translated words, 1 person is hurt mentally (mental illness).  So an upset feeling from one side, causes a person to have a mental breakdown on the other side.

The analogy above would be if someone gave you a small bruise, and you gang up with your friends to beat the fella down to a few broken bones. There are other fairer possible resolutions.

Also, this debate is a difficult one because it entwines 2 separate issues:

1. Political correctness

2. Translation - literally and being culturally aware (from the source language)

As a translator, your main job is to translate the language as close to the literal meaning (along with any cultural implications). Bearing in mind, "transgender" would be called differently in different cultures with various levels of comical/derogatory attachments to it, depending on which era and in which country you're from. In this case, I think the translator was aiming to translate with the view of Japanese culture back in the 90s, where it would probably would not cause the annoyance as it is now in today's view of political correctness (perhaps from the Western culture perspective only?).

If you are upset about it, then I think you should take it up to the original company that created the game, not the translator. Meanwhile, any person who wants to be upset at a game, can choose not to play it. After all there are plenty of games with offensive material eg. acts of violence, sexual acts/language. Are you going to spend your entire life complaining about all these other adult-related gaming? (Hint: there's quite a lot of these games around!)

[cj_robot | 540]

39 minutes ago, PineappleLawnchair said:

So basically people will cry anyways because they're too sensitive to handle to mere existence of something that might offend them, even if they're provided with accommodations so that they're not forced to ever see it. Just seems like those people should not be taken seriously then.

What we'd like is for bigotry to end, not for you to simply accommodate us with a bigotry-free zone for us to live in.

[Sumez | 2,933]

Why is it so damn hard to accept that fact that someone can get hurt by something?

Somebody who has lived their entire life as transgender has probably faced a lot of issues that is hard to relate to for a person who has never had to deal with similar struggles. Just stop trying to act like an expert on how other people are allowed to feel. There's nothing to gain from it.

[cj_robot | 540]

5 minutes ago, GPX said:

After all there are plenty of games with offensive material eg. acts of violence, sexual acts/language. Are you going to spend your entire life complaining about all these other adult-related gaming? (Hint: there's quite a lot of these games around!)

This isn't about content that someone just doesn't like. This is about including words that are actually insulting to a group of people. This is about a derogatory term continuing to be used, when it needs to be put to an end.