weekly contest 2022 VGS NES Weekly Contest - Tournament Round 2

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

21 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

Dude….. one of these days the perfect set of games for my skills set will fall in my lap and I’ll win…..

So you might win the tournament in 2035? 

[mbd39 | 2,020]

I reached the escape section without a death and of course I died.

I don't know if I can clear that part deathless this week.

 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

29 minutes ago, mbd39 said:

I reached the escape section without a death and of course I died.

I don't know if I can clear that part deathless this week.

 

Yeah, that was the last stumbling block for me as well.  I think you'll get through it though...

[BeaIank | 1,618]

1 hour ago, mbd39 said:

I reached the escape section without a death and of course I died.

I don't know if I can clear that part deathless this week.

 

This is where save states come in handy. Save the game before that part and practise it till doing it deathless is second nature.

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

3 hours ago, BeaIank said:

This is where save states come in handy. Save the game before that part and practise it till doing it deathless is second nature.

Do save states disrespect the spirit of the game though?

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

11 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

Do save states disrespect the spirit of the game though?

Yeah, I never practice with save states.  I know a lot peeps do, but I feel like that's cheap in a way, to gain fake experience on a particular part of a game when the developers never intended for that to happen.

When you get to a really hard part in a game and then subsequently die and have to get back there to practice it, you inherently get better at the rest of the game as a whole since you're practicing the whole game with each play-through.  With Life Force, Stage 3 was really tough for me, but I kept playing the whole game over and over until I finally no-deathed Stage 3, and same for the final escape...

[mbd39 | 2,020]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Yeah, I never practice with save states.  I know a lot peeps do, but I feel like that's cheap in a way, to gain fake experience on a particular part of a game when the developers never intended for that to happen.

 

I doubt the developers intended people to beat this deathless either. The problem is it requires memorization and you don't get enough opportunities to practice because you continue exactly where you die.  Maybe if you beat the game many times over months you can learn it without savestates.  Otherwise I don't see how.

 

 

[BeaIank | 1,618]

This' a tournament. You have to make use of the best learning tools available if you want to come up on top.

I didn't become the best player of my character in Street Fighter V in Brazil by not using the training mode and the saving options to train against specific situations against every other characters.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

21 minutes ago, mbd39 said:

Maybe if you beat the game many times

That's how I did it   I probably beat the game like 10 times this week...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

23 minutes ago, BeaIank said:

This' a tournament. You have to make use of the best learning tools available if you want to come up on top.

I didn't become the best player of my character in Street Fighter V in Brazil by not using the training mode and the saving options to train against specific situations against every other characters.

It's not so bad if the final submission is on real hardware, but when I hear about people practicing with save states and then their official score is a screenshot of their pc monitor... who's to say they didn't say "fuck it, I'm sick of replaying this shit," and use save states?  Yeah, I know we're on the honour system, but it's what - like one key press to save a state and another to reload?  That's gotta be the easiest cheat set-up in the history of ever.

Oh well, I know not everyone owns every game, so it is what it is...

Edited November 27, 2022 by Dr. Morbis

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

Oi, not the "everyone using an emulator is cheating" BS again...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

9 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Oi, not the "everyone using an emulator is cheating" BS again...

...Says the guy who showed me that cheating on an emulater is so ridiculously easy that you can do it accidentally without even knowing it....    (remember Pipe Dream... )

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

...Says the guy who showed me that cheating on an emulater is so ridiculously easy that you can do it accidentally without even knowing it....    (remember Pipe Dream... )

I remember using a code from the actual game in Pipe Dream to see the effect, and then resetting for my actual run.  The problem would still have existed using real hardware, as I would've left the game on pause after resetting, exactly like I did on the emulator.  The code stays in effect after a reset though, the only way to get rid of it was to do a power cycle, which I did when I realized the issue at hand.  So yeah, that is hardly the best example to use, as it could 100% be replicated on actual hardware, and I would've had the exact same issue had I been using my NES.  The only reason you even mention it is because I happened to be playing via emulator at that time.

EDIT: And to be really clear, the only reason I used the code in the first place was to see if it could be detected on a final shot.  And since we couldn't actually get a final shot using it, it proved that it was a non-issue.

Edited November 27, 2022 by the_wizard_666

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

4 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

I remember using a code from the actual game in Pipe Dream to see the effect, and then resetting for my actual run.  The problem would still have existed using real hardware, as I would've left the game on pause after resetting, exactly like I did on the emulator.  The code stays in effect after a reset though, the only way to get rid of it was to do a power cycle, which I did when I realized the issue at hand.  So yeah, that is hardly the best example to use, as it could 100% be replicated on actual hardware, and I would've had the exact same issue had I been using my NES.  The only reason you even mention it is because I happened to be playing via emulator at that time.

EDIT: And to be really clear, the only reason I used the code in the first place was to see if it could be detected on a final shot.  And since we couldn't actually get a final shot using it, it proved that it was a non-issue.

That's a pretty long-ass explanation...  

Moving right along, how are your Life Force and Q*bert runs going?  One day to go...

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 minute ago, Dr. Morbis said:

That's a pretty long-ass explanation...  

Moving right along, how are your Life Force and Q*bert runs going?  One day to go...

I ain't wasting my time on Life Force, as shooters are one of my worst genres and no-deathing one is gonna be outside my wheelhouse.  As for Q-Bert, I haven't fired it up yet.  It's hard to be motivated knowing I'm gonna bomb out of the last round anyway.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

31 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

I ain't wasting my time on Life Force, as shooters are one of my worst genres and no-deathing one is gonna be outside my wheelhouse.  As for Q-Bert, I haven't fired it up yet.  It's hard to be motivated knowing I'm gonna bomb out of the last round anyway.

Make it happen or make excuses.  (One of those should be right up your alley )

Puzzle games are most definitely not in my wheelhouse, but I Q*berted myself into a tizzy...

[mbd39 | 2,020]

276,670

[Krunch | 303]

I just don't agree that save states shouldn't be used nor do I agree that they should be treated like a forbidden thing, what we're doing in this competition is pushing the limits of the game with the rulesets clearly stated on what constitutes an eligible run, pushing our own individual player limits too, and for some games I would argue that VGS is slightly meta-competing with the rest of the internet.  Practice is practice - experience that you gained based on practicing from a specific save state is nebulously just more practice in your arsenal to be prepared for a real run, and actually pull the run off.  Call it "ghost practice."  

It would be like (example) if I was really really good at point pressing in all levels of Adventure Island because I had it as a kid - BUT lets say my older brother always beat lets say 3-2 for me because I find it oddly difficult (except one time when I did it, just to make it equivalent to a save state).  And so I had a ton of pre-existing practice on everything before and after 3-2.  If I then play the contest, beat the early levels and manage to squeak through 3-2, then get an insane score because I'm just that good at all of Adventure Island due to my pre-existing practice, is that illegitimate?  What if the same scenario happens with someone I know beating 3-2 for me every time, except neither of us had played the game until the contest week started?  Illegitimate also?

As for someone saying they're using save states and then still posting on an emulator and that looking bad, I think that's borderline an accusation on anyone who emulates, which is not in the spirit of the contest.  Mods decide if someone's cheating, cheaters have been ousted before, it's surprisingly swift and easy to spot.  It's been previously established (because dra600n used to bring up this issue ALL THE TIME on NA) that you'd pretty much have to be a total loser to cheat in an honor system contest with no money and purposefully few prizes outside of prestige, and that it would feel worse for the cheater than how much it affects the cheated (especially because in some cases leaderboard points can be changed in time), so it's kind of its own life punishment to get caught doing that.  Plus they get banned. If that's not enough then I'm not really sure.  

As for me, I emulate when I don't have the game.  Which is about 75 percent of the time I'd say, though I used to own the game almost every time.  That's a money thing for me.  Sometimes I use save states - like Batman Returns, where I still didnt get good enough, sadly.  Sometimes I practice on both emulator and real NES depending on comfort.  Powerpaks/Everdrives can probably be used to the same degree I'm sure, so we need to have every game to play every game?  Not for me.  I'm a CIB guy - its too expensive to keep all of them or try to get all of them, I like having a streamlined collection of games I really love.  I don't chase loose carts to fulfil this part of my leisure time.  I really just think this is a new age of gaming & technology and trying to shun, scorn or stifle certain methods of practice doesn't end up being the best mindset in terms of having fun or breaking new ground of improvement.

 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

2 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Make it happen or make excuses.  (One of those should be right up your alley )

Puzzle games are most definitely not in my wheelhouse, but I Q*berted myself into a tizzy...

Q*Bert is not a puzzle game though.  So it's more in your wheelhouse than it is in mine.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

3 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Q*Bert is not a puzzle game though.  So it's more in your wheelhouse than it is in mine.

Well it's a puzzle game until 11pm VGS time tomorrow...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

Yeah @Krunch, it's not so bad doing save state practice for a tournament competition with others when I guess everyone has the whole internet available to them; I would just never do it for a personal NES achievement myself, on principle.  If other people want to do it, more power to them.

I actually didn't even look at any Life Force videos on how to point press, so my posted no-death run is the natural score a person would get just playing through the game and shooting as much stuff as possible.  I see that @mbd39 blew my score away, so I can only assume there are some great strategies out there for scumming extra points out of Life Force.  I'm expecting @docile tapeworm to have a killer score in his pocket too, but I'm okay with third or fourth, depending on who else comes out of the woodwork.

Anyway, to each his own...

[mbd39 | 2,020]

I want to learn how to beat Gradius next. I never beat that one.

[Krunch | 303]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Yeah @Krunch, it's not so bad doing save state practice for a tournament competition with others when I guess everyone has the whole internet available to them; I would just never do it for a personal NES achievement myself, on principle.  If other people want to do it, more power to them.

I actually didn't even look at any Life Force videos on how to point press, so my posted no-death run is the natural score a person would get just playing through the game and shooting as much stuff as possible.  I see that @mbd39 blew my score away, so I can only assume there are some great strategies out there for scumming extra points out of Life Force.  I'm expecting @docile tapeworm to have a killer score in his pocket too, but I'm okay with third or fourth, depending on who else comes out of the woodwork.

Anyway, to each his own...

I do understand that for yourself.  I think it improves a person's overall skills for all games to try to play that way some of the time or most of the time.  I often find myself playing that same way, just straight as it's made, which sometimes works, and sometimes it's to my detriment - often I fall into the trap of being too focused on getting really good at early point pressing and not nailing the long game (Mario 3, Battletoads, maybe even Q*Bert) or on lesser games I'm kinda bumbling through and sometimes tiring myself out or boring myself in the process.  Boring is what I want to avoid most of all.  There's certain games where I just don't have the moxie to go through the ringer that many times.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

12 minutes ago, Krunch said:

I often find myself playing that same way, just straight as it's made, which sometimes works, and sometimes it's to my detriment

Yeah, well I used Ripple the whole time on Life Force and I just learned that killing certain enemies quicker with lasers gets you more points.  Oh wells... like you said, to my own detriment...  I was just focused on getting the no-death run, so at least I accomplished that...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

19 minutes ago, mbd39 said:

I want to learn how to beat Gradius next. I never beat that one.

Two things: if you die, just reset, no joke.  And two, there are certain levels that you have to switch to certain weapons, so you need to have your power-up gauge ready ahead of time, so keep that in mind as well, unlike Life force where you can cruise on through the whole game with the same weapon.

Gradius is much more difficult than Life Force (except for having the easiest final boss in history), and if you die in the middle of any level after level two, it's nigh on impossible to continue...