VGS NES TOURNAMENT - Top 8/9

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

7 hours ago, Krunch said:

Another update!  Got a -9 including two birdies on last two holes.  Don't think any eagles this time.

I played a few games this morning before the football games start and the best I got was a -10 so I'm probably done with Golf. I may try to get a few games of Soccer in tomorrow and see if I can get an extra point out of that.

[0xDEAFC0DE | 1,277]

Total: 22 (24 + 0 - 2)

Golf: -24

Soccer: 0-0

Tennis: Lost (-2)

You guys are going to hate me for this, but I seem to have broken Golf.

I may have reverse engineered the stroke system and come up with a script that gives me the best shots to make. I will say this still requires a lot of skill. The script doesn't automatically give me hole-in-ones on the par 3s and two strokes and the rest. Like I said earlier, a good number of times this isn't possible due to the wind. And even if there is a way to get an eagle, the vast majority of time it requires one or two shots with frame perfect curve. I only hit a couple of those past the first two holes where I kept resetting until I got eagles there. Also, the script isn't perfect and doesn't take in to account bunkers and whether the shots on the fringe of OOBs or the water are in or not (it would take too long to reverse those systems fully).

Edited December 5, 2021 by 0xDEAFC0DE

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

53 minutes ago, 0xDEAFC0DE said:

You guys are going to hate me for this, but I seem to have broken Golf.

I may have reverse engineered the stroke system and come up with a script that gives me the best shots to make. I will say this still requires a lot of skill. The script doesn't automatically give me hole-in-ones on the par 3s and two strokes and the rest. Like I said earlier, a good number of times this isn't possible due to the wind. And even if there is a way to get an eagle, the vast majority of time it requires one or two shots with frame perfect curve. I only hit a couple of those past the first two holes where I kept resetting until I got eagles there. Also, the script isn't perfect and doesn't take in to account bunkers and whether the shots on the fringe of OOBs or the water are in or not (it would take too long to reverse those systems fully).

I figured that you were going to find a way to do this. Great score!

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 hour ago, 0xDEAFC0DE said:

You guys are going to hate me for this, but I seem to have broken Golf.

I may have reverse engineered the stroke system and come up with a script that gives me the best shots to make. I will say this still requires a lot of skill. The script doesn't automatically give me hole-in-ones on the par 3s and two strokes and the rest. Like I said earlier, a good number of times this isn't possible due to the wind. And even if there is a way to get an eagle, the vast majority of time it requires one or two shots with frame perfect curve. I only hit a couple of those past the first two holes where I kept resetting until I got eagles there. Also, the script isn't perfect and doesn't take in to account bunkers and whether the shots on the fringe of OOBs or the water are in or not (it would take too long to reverse those systems fully).

Using a script is not playing the game though.  You have to execute for the score to count.  But it's cool that you figured out a theoretical maximum...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

1 hour ago, 0xDEAFC0DE said:

You guys are going to hate me for this, but I seem to have broken Golf.

I may have reverse engineered the stroke system and come up with a script that gives me the best shots to make. I will say this still requires a lot of skill. The script doesn't automatically give me hole-in-ones on the par 3s and two strokes and the rest. Like I said earlier, a good number of times this isn't possible due to the wind. And even if there is a way to get an eagle, the vast majority of time it requires one or two shots with frame perfect curve. I only hit a couple of those past the first two holes where I kept resetting until I got eagles there. Also, the script isn't perfect and doesn't take in to account bunkers and whether the shots on the fringe of OOBs or the water are in or not (it would take too long to reverse those systems fully).

I knew you were going to the final as soon as I saw it was three sports games.... like the organizers really wanted the Sports Genre champ to go through.  Ah well, it is what it is...

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

Just now, Dr. Morbis said:

I knew you were going to the final as soon as I saw it was three sports games.... like the organizers really wanted the Sports Genre champ to go through.  Ah well, it is what it is...

Don't worry, his -24 doesn't count.  He wrote a script, which means the game wasn't actually played. 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

12 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Don't worry, his -24 doesn't count.  He wrote a script, which means the game wasn't actually played. 

Looks like he wrote a script on his pc and followed it while playing on his CRT... looks legit to me.

Anyway, it sucks that the one single guy in the field that can read code had one of the two genres he's competent at as a triple shot in the tourney; I would personally ignore that person's genres when selecting games so that he would not have any advantage over the rest of the field.  But this is all moot because he sure as shit ain't winning a Batman speedrun final...

Edited December 4, 2021 by Dr. Morbis

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

11 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Don't worry, his -24 doesn't count.  He wrote a script, which means the game wasn't actually played. 

I was under the impression that was a legit score using whatever notes he came up with.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

Just now, Dr. Morbis said:

Looks like he wrote a script on his pc and followed it while playing on his CRT... looks legit to me.

Anyway, it sucks that the one single guy in the field that can read code had one of the two genres he's competent at as a triple shot in the tourney; I would personally ignore that person's genres when selecting games so that he would not have any advantage over the rest of the field.  But this is all moot because he sure as shit ain't winning a Batman speedrun final...

I don't think I've played Batman for more than 5 minutes and I've never heard of the Famicom game. I have a busy week coming up so I might have to defer my spot to the next person if I even qualify.

[NESfiend | 1,515]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I knew you were going to the final as soon as I saw it was three sports games.... like the organizers really wanted the Sports Genre champ to go through.  Ah well, it is what it is...

I kind of assumed after wiz meltdown and then resolution everyone figured out that needlessly ripping volunteer moderators is bullshit, but I guess I was wrong. 

You didnt say a word about the game choice til he broke it. I dont like how he did it either. I dont know how thats fun for anyone, including deaf, but what do I know? 

We could have a real discussion about whether that should be allowed, but no one is fixing anything for anyone. I dont know much about scripts, but I find it concerning that he had to qualify that it doesnt auto give him hole in ones. 

You let a whole week go by without complaining about the game choice. You seemed just fine with it until he did that. Blowing up the mods is classless regardless 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

9 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

I kind of assumed after wiz meltdown and then resolution everyone figured out that needlessly ripping volunteer moderators is bullshit, but I guess I was wrong. 

You didnt say a word about the game choice til he broke it. I dont like how he did it either. I dont know how thats fun for anyone, including deaf, but what do I know? 

We could have a real discussion about whether that should be allowed, but no one is fixing anything for anyone. I dont know much about scripts, but I find it concerning that he had to qualify that it doesnt auto give him hole in ones. 

You let a whole week go by without complaining about the game choice. You seemed just fine with it until he did that. Blowing up the mods is classless regardless 

In fairness, he absolutely DID say words about it...just not publicly.  We talked about it a LOT, pretty much since the games were announced.

EDIT: And thinking about it, he's been pretty consistent about that complaint during every sports game so far, at least that I've played.

Edited December 4, 2021 by the_wizard_666

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

3 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

I kind of assumed after wiz meltdown and then resolution everyone figured out that needlessly ripping volunteer moderators is bullshit, but I guess I was wrong. 

You didnt say a word about the game choice til he broke it. I dont like how he did it either. I dont know how thats fun for anyone, including deaf, but what do I know? 

We could have a real discussion about whether that should be allowed, but no one is fixing anything for anyone. I dont know much about scripts, but I find it concerning that he had to qualify that it doesnt auto give him hole in ones. 

You let a whole week go by without complaining about the game choice. You seemed just fine with it until he did that. Blowing up the mods is classless regardless 

Ummm... wow!  This is a public internet forum, I wasn't "ripping" on anyone; I was commenting on what has transpired, or should that be against the rules?!?

I stand by my statement: if I was running a tourney with 16 players in the field, and one of those players had a very unique and distinct advantage that would far and away help him qualify for victory conditions in one (or more) particular genres, I would explicitly disclude those genres when selecting games for the tournament to keep a level playing field for all.  Now, you can interpret that any way you want, @NESfiend, or get mad, or take it personally, or.... whatever, but I stand by my statement and that is how I would personally manage an analogous situation that I had any influence over.

No hard feelings and I hope you're not but-hurt...

[NESfiend | 1,515]

17 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Ummm... wow!  This is a public internet forum, I wasn't "ripping" on anyone; I was commenting on what has transpired, or should that be against the rules?!?

I stand by my statement: if I was running a tourney with 16 players in the field, and one of those players had a very unique and distinct advantage that would far and away help him qualify for victory conditions in one (or more) particular genres, I would explicitly disclude those genres when selecting games for the tournament to keep a level playing field for all.  Now, you can interpret that any way you want, @NESfiend, or get mad, or take it personally, or.... whatever, but I stand by my statement and that is how I would personally manage an analogous situation that I had any influence over.

No hard feelings and I hope you're not but-hurt...

Im not going to get mad about anything nor do I hope you will. I genuinely like playing with you and wiz every week and having both of you in the conversations. My only issue is all the constant jabs at the mods.

Whatever category you choose, theres going to be one or two players who have an advantage. If she wanted skew things toward deaf, wed be playing a puzzler. Shooters really screw me and a handful of others in the field. A platformer would have been a free pass for doug and bert. And frankly, sports are a huge part of the library. You are going to have to play some in league like this. There were no sports last year. This year there were. Ok. I didnt love the second round game last year. 

Also, its worth pointing out the rule allowing code looking predates these mods. Its worth revisiting though. What he is doing is entirely different than how bea was using code. She also frequently shared that info with the field to make everyones experience better

Edit: and as for my defending mods vehemently, its generally not my thing to defend the man, obviously. But you have to recognize they are doing a LOT of work for 20 or so people to have fun with this every week. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by NESfiend

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

13 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

Im not going to get mad about anything nor do I hope you will. I genuinely like playing with you and wiz every week and having both of you in the conversations. My only issue is all the constant jabs at the mods.

Whatever category you choose, theres going to be one or two players who have an advantage. If she wanted skew things toward deaf, wed be playing a puzzler. Shooters really screw me and a handful of others in the field. A platformer would have been a free pass for doug and bert. And frankly, sports are a huge part of the library. You are going to have to play some in league like this. There were no sports last year. This year there were. Ok. I didnt love the second round game last year. 

Also, its worth pointing out the rule allowing code looking predates these mods. Its worth revisiting though. What he is doing is entirely different than how bea was using code. She also frequently shared that info with the field to make everyones experience better

Edit: and as for my defending mods vehemently, its generally not my thing to defend the man, obviously. But you have to recognize they are doing a LOT of work for 20 or so people to have fun with this every week. 

For what it's worth, picking a beat em up would be more likely to give me a free pass and it seems like bert isn't a fan of them, which is an added bonus.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

The thing is, if we ban looking at code, what's stopping him from doing it anyway?  I'd rather he didn't, obviously, but there's no way to stop it from happening.  It'd be nice if all the info gleaned was made public immediately, but we can't really ban the tactic without banning things like reading the manual or looking at a strategy guide.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

Just now, the_wizard_666 said:

The thing is, if we ban looking at code, what's stopping him from doing it anyway?  I'd rather he didn't, obviously, but there's no way to stop it from happening.  It'd be nice if all the info gleaned was made public immediately, but we can't really ban the tactic without banning things like reading the manual or looking at a strategy guide.

This is true. Something as simple as reading guides on GameFAQs or watching playthroughs on YouTube can give an advantage over anyone else that didn't.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

24 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

Im not going to get mad about anything nor do I hope you will. I genuinely like playing with you and wiz every week and having both of you in the conversations. My only issue is all the constant jabs at the mods.

Whatever category you choose, theres going to be one or two players who have an advantage. If she wanted skew things toward deaf, wed be playing a puzzler. Shooters really screw me and a handful of others in the field. A platformer would have been a free pass for doug and bert. And frankly, sports are a huge part of the library. You are going to have to play some in league like this. There were no sports last year. This year there were. Ok. I didnt love the second round game last year. 

Also, its worth pointing out the rule allowing code looking predates these mods. Its worth revisiting though. What he is doing is entirely different than how bea was using code. She also frequently shared that info with the field to make everyones experience better

Edit: and as for my defending mods vehemently, its generally not my thing to defend the man, obviously. But you have to recognize they are doing a LOT of work for 20 or so people to have fun with this every week. 

I honestly don't know why you're continuously trying to turn this into a court case: the people vs the mods, but you have to understand that people make posts because they care.  We have the same objective: making the Weekly NES Contest the best it can be.  Now, as a lawyer, I'm sure you can comprehend why deafcode's ability to read code is not at all similar to anyone else's particular affinity for or against certain genres.  Everyone has games they are good at and games they suck at, but what's similar to all of us is that the variance is related to gameplay; I'm not a lawyer like you apparently are, but an opposing lawyer would rip your similarity argument apart.

In fact, I'll spell it out for you; here's the difference: this guy reads code to gain an advantage!  Do you not understand how that's different than everyone else's good or bad abilities at gameplay in specific genres?  If this were some big E-sports extravaganza or pretty much any real sanctioned tournament on earth, what he's doing would be explicitly prohibited, but it's not and he's not.  C'est la vie.  Life goes on, just don't expect everyone on earth to keep quiet 100% of the time when you've got one guy literally working on the other side of the curtain.  If he's allowed to read code, I'm allowed to be disgruntled about it.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say.  Just stop trying to paint this as the people vs. the mods...

PS - writing this post does not make me against the mods, so please don't use that angle if you decide to respond.  Thanks.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Dr. Morbis

[NESfiend | 1,515]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I honestly don't know why you're continuously trying to turn this into a court case: the people vs the mods, but you have to understand that people make posts because they care.  We have the same objective: making the Weekly NES Contest the best it can be.  Now, as a lawyer, I'm sure you can comprehend why deafcode's ability to read code is not at all similar to anyone else's particular affinity for or against certain genres.  Everyone has games they are good at and games they suck at, but what's similar to all of us is that the variance is related to gameplay; 

I totally agree the rule on code reading needs to be changed at this point. And disagreeing with their decisions respectfully is fine. Saying a category was chosen because mods wanted him to have a free pass is not respectully disagreeing. Its a an attack on their integrity to imply they are fixing it

[0xDEAFC0DE | 1,277]

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Looks like he wrote a script on his pc and followed it while playing on his CRT... looks legit to me.

Anyway, it sucks that the one single guy in the field that can read code had one of the two genres he's competent at as a triple shot in the tourney; I would personally ignore that person's genres when selecting games so that he would not have any advantage over the rest of the field.  But this is all moot because he sure as shit ain't winning a Batman speedrun final...

1 hour ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I was under the impression that was a legit score using whatever notes he came up with.

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Using a script is not playing the game though.  You have to execute for the score to count.  But it's cool that you figured out a theoretical maximum...

Yeah, Dr. Morbis and Doug are correct. I was playing on real hardware (well using an everdrive, but close enough). The script is set up to allow me to enter the hole and wind direction. So as I beat a hole on the console, I would enter in the new data into the script on my laptop and then executed the shots on the console again. As far as the theoretical minimum strokes, that would be -40 (as seen in the TAS).

For what it's worth about the sports category thing, this one was in my favor but it looks like Macross is a shooter, which I'm horrible at. So, my chances in the grand finals don't bode well.

4 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The thing is, if we ban looking at code, what's stopping him from doing it anyway?  I'd rather he didn't, obviously, but there's no way to stop it from happening.  It'd be nice if all the info gleaned was made public immediately, but we can't really ban the tactic without banning things like reading the manual or looking at a strategy guide.

If looking at the code was banned I would stop doing it. If I really wanted to cheat, there are a billion easier ways then to reverse engineer the code. The reason I do it is because I find it fun to dig into the game and figure out how it really works, but if it's made against the rules I would stop. 

[Jeevan | 8,910]

whoa, did deafcode get a -88?  I haven't been watching this thread.....

[Krunch | 303]

Shooter in the finals?  Thats bad news for me, if I even make it.  Anyway I've got a Soccer win now, just 1-0.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

25 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

Saying a category was chosen because mods wanted him to have a free pass is not respectully disagreeing.

It was not my intention to insinuate that they "wanted him to have a free pass," only that it seemed that way by coincidence based on the genre chosen, hence the "like" at the beginning of the sentence that I wrote that you are refering to.  I should have been more clear on that: I do not in any way feel like the mods are trying to get any particular player through any particular round and I commend the great job they are doing in the tourney...

 

[0xDEAFC0DE | 1,277]

43 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

Also, its worth pointing out the rule allowing code looking predates these mods. Its worth revisiting though. What he is doing is entirely different than how bea was using code. She also frequently shared that info with the field to make everyones experience better

Fair enough. I don't really have a whole lot of useful info to share on this one. I'll go over what there is.

The power meter is actually split up into sections that are of equal power. The first four half ticks (so full left to between 2 and 3) are max power. From there every five half ticks are another power level (so the next one would be 3 to 5 then 5.5 to 7.5 and so on). The one exception is the 1W has a special super shot if you hit full power and no curve. For curve, it maxes out at 5 either direction. So, you can actually hit very consistent shots with max curve one way or the other. Also, there seems to be a slight programming error in the lower clubs where their no curve range is slightly bigger than is show by the white ticks.

Another good resource is watching the speedrun. It's amazing and you should definitely watch it. The guy gets -21 in under 7 minutes (which means he doesn't have time to set up his shots). That's way more impressive than my -25 (I wonder how good he'd be if he takes his time). Anyway, he gives a good tip in the video description. You can get 0 wind on the first hole every time by holding start after powering on the console. This means you can follow hisset up to get an eagle. Combining that with the info above, the first shot needs the power to be between the 3rd and 5th ticks with max left curve, and the second shot needs to be full power with four right curve (note: that hitting that curve is frame perfect, so it'll take some practice to get it right).

If there's anything else you want to know about in particular feel free to ask.

20 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

In fact, I'll spell it out for you; here's the difference: this guy reads code to gain an advantage! 

I mean nothing is stopping you from reading the code too... Lol, I kid I kid. I'm a programmer by profession, so yeah it's definitely an advantage. If the mods decide it's an unfair advantage, then I'm fine with it being banned. It's probably too late to change anything for this year (I've been open about the fact I look through the code all year, so I don't think it's fair to change things just for the finals). But, in the next year's planning thread, we can definitely continue the discussion.

[NESfiend | 1,515]

@0xDEAFC0DEwould/will still win sports cat yearly even if we did change the rule. He shreds those games even when code isnt helpful. 

Deaf, I do think you should clarify if holding start to get 0 wind on hole 1 is allowed. That seems outside the bounds of our standard rules, but Im far from an expert

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

49 minutes ago, 0xDEAFC0DE said:

Yeah, Dr. Morbis and Doug are correct. I was playing on real hardware (well using an everdrive, but close enough). The script is set up to allow me to enter the hole and wind direction. So as I beat a hole on the console, I would enter in the new data into the script on my laptop and then executed the shots on the console again. As far as the theoretical minimum strokes, that would be -40 (as seen in the TAS).

For what it's worth about the sports category thing, this one was in my favor but it looks like Macross is a shooter, which I'm horrible at. So, my chances in the grand finals don't bode well.

If looking at the code was banned I would stop doing it. If I really wanted to cheat, there are a billion easier ways then to reverse engineer the code. The reason I do it is because I find it fun to dig into the game and figure out how it really works, but if it's made against the rules I would stop. 

Yeah, my bad, I assumed you ran a script to play for you.  I'd actually be curious to try the script out and see if it'd improve my game any, but again, I'm thinking execution is the hardest part, so it may not actually help me any

Anyway, I think banning code-peeking is a bit excessive...my argument is that anyone can do it, so long as the inclination is there to learn what exactly they're looking at.  Your advantage is already knowing that part, but anyone who cares to learn can do it.  And unless I missed something, you haven't posted for Soccer or Tennis yet...if you figure something out that would help though, feel free to chime in!