Survey Regarding the Potential of a New Video Game Grader in the Market

[OptOut | 8,884]

Just now, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

As for the antics and comments from @OptOut that's very disappointing but every thread has that guy I guess,

[cromag27 | 46]

1 hour ago, spacepup said:

Skepticism and honest feedback (even if quite harsh) is appropriate.  Complete mockery and ridicule / trolling, is inappropriate at best. 

The OP asked for feedback, so feel free to share it, but not like this.   

that’s what he does. 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

14 minutes ago, guitarzombie said:

Long term value?  Id say you're smoking the hopium.  But hey, its your money to throw away not mine.

Why wouldn't they?  Comics have?  Sports cards have?  Coins have? China has?  Dolls have?

Emergence of fractional investing has brought increased interest in many collectible markets and driven them up recently and the basics of supply seem to favor video game collecting.  

So, honest question - why do you disagree?  Thanks

[cromag27 | 46]

2 minutes ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

Why wouldn't they?  Comics have?  Sports cards have?  Coins have? China has?  Dolls have?

Emergence of fractional investing has brought increased interest in many collectible markets and driven them up recently and the basics of supply seem to favor video game collecting.  

So, honest question - why do you disagree?  Thanks

exactly!  most of the audience here (i’ve come to realize) is collectors with very little knowledge of, or interest in investing.

 

 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

2 hours ago, Mr. CIB said:

WATA got similar push back in different circles when they got rolling. Their key to success wasn’t grading...... it was the marketing. 

Excellent point.  However the grading will be what matters long term.  The marketing got them going and growing but to sustain over the long haul they'll need to grade consistently and fairly unless they never face real competition. 

I can only assume they've been consistently bashed and ridiculed for being unprofessional and unprepared for their home page here on March 5th still having their holiday shutdown message up?  

[Jeevan | 8,911]

5 minutes ago, cromag27 said:

exactly!  most of the audience here (i’ve come to realize) is collectors with very little knowledge of, or interest in investing.

 

 

hence my post, and ur eyeroll .  i see both sides, but  my statement stands, less grading, more playing!!

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

22 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Ahem...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-new-choice-in-video-game-grading#/

WHOSE money is he throwing away again...

So far, still just mine: 0 backers

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

Just now, Jeevan said:

less grading, more playing!!

Completely respect that - grading isn't for everyone which I stated from the beginning.  The sports card industry, coin collector's, comic books all hated grading when it entered the market now it's almost required if you want to sell anything.  Many of you will never ever sell a video game much less slab it - totally get it but for those that do want, need and appreciate what grading offers it seems logical that more options makes the market better, if WATA disagrees, if they or any company thinks they should be the only game (no pun intended) in town that would cause serious concerns for me as a consumer if one, even 2 companies controlled the market and weren't in fact neutral 3rd party graders.  

[Jeevan | 8,911]

1 minute ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

Completely respect that - grading isn't for everyone which I stated from the beginning.  The sports card industry, coin collector's, comic books all hated grading when it entered the market now it's almost required if you want to sell anything.  Many of you will never ever sell a video game much less slab it - totally get it but for those that do want, need and appreciate what grading offers it seems logical that more options makes the market better, if WATA disagrees, if they or any company thinks they should be the only game (no pun intended) in town that would cause serious concerns for me as a consumer if one, even 2 companies controlled the market and weren't in fact neutral 3rd party graders.  

agreed, there are way too little for it to be fair.  But thanks for respecting my opinion  

Edit:  there are too little grading companies, i know that it is a niche and that it is an acquired taste, but grading is subjective anyways, and honestly, one group is really cornering the market with their company, so is it necessary for more, probably, but not very likely it is going to happen, especially when people are making money hand over fist.  Good luck to you, but i think that it will all die down eventually, and tbh, im waiting for the day that the market crashes and I can buy some poor sap's graded chip n dale cib so i can open it and play it

[Woobie | 46]

So from reading through the whole thing I am pretty sure alot of the points have been touched on already but I might as well re-iterate. I have seen alot of people trying to start up their own company to "compete" with WATA / VGA, always just seems like a cash grab while "grading is hot" and never seem to be able to make solid arguments for the reason to do it, so:

• What makes you different? What do you bring to the table that VGA / WATA does not? I noticed you say that your intent was to "meet turn around times, which VGA and WATA currently do not". Thats a bold promise to make as how can you account for things outside of your control? With the current pandemic affecting things like the supply chain for plastics, how can you definitively say that you will always meet your times? What if an Item was submitted and turn around was stated at 30 days, but unexpected situation arose and now its 50 days? Do you honor the 30 or is it now the 50?
• Whats your background? I know WATA started with deep ties to the community already and felt like a "trusted" source as they already had deep ties to the community / involvement going back many years. They were "trusted" because people knew them, met them, shared stories and collected with them. They had knowledge of "whats a first print? second? third?". The argument can be made that VGA didnt have "deep ties" to the community, but in fairness they were also the first so kind of get a pass (when your the only option on the market, things like that matter less as you're not competing with anyone)
• How do you intend to "get the market on board"? Alot of folks will not want to go with a 3rd option unless they have good reason to. Someone who has an item graded with the intention of selling it will want others on board to believe that the grading is "established" or "legit". Some might view the graded game from some 3rd company they have never heard of as being worth only as much as a raw copy or potentially less. So where does the "value added" come in? (This is not my personal perspective as I dont grade my stuff to sell, but I am being objective in that currently selling graded games IS a large market)
• From what I read your intent is to be more consistent with grades, which is a nice thought but I find that somewhat difficult to do. Grading is subjective to an extent. I look at an item and I see 5 flaws, someone else looks at it and sees one I missed, another looks at it and doesnt see as many as I did. How can you confirm every flaw was seen? I can understanding "weighting" each flaw, but missing some is still always going to be a reality or alternatively how "bad" a flaw is can be subjective (crushed box, how much is it crushed? etc etc). I find grading to be a bit more of an art than a science
• How do you intend to quell market fears that its not just a cash grab? I swear every 2 weeks I see a new "company" popping up wanting to start doing grading but it always feels the same, why didnt you start grading 5-6 years ago if that was something you were passionate about doing ? Is it just a "find a need fill a need" business? What do you feel the current competition is "lacking" aside from turn around times?

[cromag27 | 46]

8 minutes ago, Jeevan said:

hence my post, and ur eyeroll .  i see both sides, but  my statement stands, less grading, more playing!!

i hear ya. but us investors are here to stay, and there will only be more down the line. it’s going to get “worse” before it get better!  but there’s room for everyone.

[Jeevan | 8,911]

24 minutes ago, cromag27 said:

i hear ya. but us investors are here to stay, and there will only be more down the line. it’s going to get “worse” before it get better!  but there’s room for everyone.

Well good luck to you, I hope you don't mean for it to get worse, kuz honestly that's kinda a dick move......it kinda hurts to see how my hobby has went up in price since i joined and it is really frustrating to those of us who just want to enjoy our childhood games.  If this is where its going, i will still be around, just not buying from speculators/investors.  I truly don't mean any disrespect, but it just sucks that I might have to go cart only because I can't afford a $90 cib chip n dale rescue rangers for nes.  I will get the cart only i guess, but it sure is disappointing not being able to get what i want because folks wanna make a killing on stuff.

I get it, u guys want to make money, more power to ya, I just honestly can't wait till u guys go bye bye so i can get my cib games .  Once again, there is room for all, i just wish that it wasn't hurting me and other collectors in the long run and hurting the hobby for us true hobbyists.

Edit:  cue eyeroll   

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

7 minutes ago, Woobie said:

So from reading through the whole thing I am pretty sure alot of the points have been touched on already but I might as well re-iterate. I have seen alot of people trying to start up their own company to "compete" with WATA / VGA, always just seems like a cash grab while "grading is hot" and never seem to be able to make solid arguments for the reason to do it, so:

I'll do my best to answer these fair, well thought out questions 

7 minutes ago, Woobie said:

• What makes you different? What do you bring to the table that VGA / WATA does not? I noticed you say that your intent was to "meet turn around times, which VGA and WATA currently do not". Thats a bold promise to make as how can you account for things outside of your control? With the current pandemic affecting things like the supply chain for plastics, how can you definitively say that you will always meet your times? What if an Item was submitted and turn around was stated at 30 days, but unexpected situation arose and now its 50 days? Do you honor the 30 or is it now the 50?

Certainly there are unforeseen circumstances that impact businesses and nothing is guaranteed.  But starting slow, we don't plan to "grade everything" from day 1 and we know that it's an uphill battle (most new businesses are) which plays to our favor as this slow ramp up allows us to be confident we can keep our promises.  If the FedEx truck carrying our labels gets t-boned at an intersection and we have to re-order that's a slow down, or our box supplier literally goes up in flames, problem - case manufacturing, even keeping it in America is a potential huge risk all the time.  BUT.... good business practices help mitigate those things. Don't wait until the last minute to re-order custom labels, don't let box supplies get too low, have a trusted partner with a proven track record of manufacturing our cases and again, order early - don't cut it too close so that if something does happen you have a buffer before it's a problem.  Common sense, sure.  Do all businesses do it - absolutely not. 

7 minutes ago, Woobie said:

• Whats your background? I know WATA started with deep ties to the community already and felt like a "trusted" source as they already had deep ties to the community / involvement going back many years. They were "trusted" because people knew them, met them, shared stories and collected with them. They had knowledge of "whats a first print? second? third?". The argument can be made that VGA didnt have "deep ties" to the community, but in fairness they were also the first so kind of get a pass (when your the only option on the market, things like that matter less as you're not competing with anyone)

I've been collecting all my life, and as someone did the math early to point out, I'm an old dude.  No I haven't been collecting video games for 40+ years but there are a lot of similarities in all collecting markets so I certainly understand grading, quality and variability of items.  I have experience starting and running businesses, some successfully, some not which means I know success and failure which IMO is important. 

I believe the market has matured to the point where that deep tie to the community is no longer a necessity to launch this venture.  If there is demand for another TPG and we deliver quality we will be successful, if not we won't - is it that simple, probably not but close.  

7 minutes ago, Woobie said:

• How do you intend to "get the market on board"? Alot of folks will not want to go with a 3rd option unless they have good reason to. Someone who has an item graded with the intention of selling it will want others on board to believe that the grading is "established" or "legit". Some might view the graded game from some 3rd company they have never heard of as being worth only as much as a raw copy or potentially less. So where does the "value added" come in? (This is not my personal perspective as I dont grade my stuff to sell, but I am being objective in that currently selling graded games IS a large market)

Our biggest challenge, no question. We do believe once people see our final product and service they will speak highly of it and we will grow but getting that traction will not be easy.  Deep discounts on grading packages for those willing to get behind the Indiegogo campaign is part of that, multiple marketing strategies will be in play as well, including following the WATA model of showing up at conventions and events.

7 minutes ago, Woobie said:

• From what I read your intent is to be more consistent with grades, which is a nice thought but I find that somewhat difficult to do. Grading is subjective to an extent. I look at an item and I see 5 flaws, someone else looks at it and sees one I missed, another looks at it and doesnt see as many as I did. How can you confirm every flaw was seen? I can understanding "weighting" each flaw, but missing some is still always going to be a reality or alternatively how "bad" a flaw is can be subjective (crushed box, how much is it crushed? etc etc). I find grading to be a bit more of an art than a science

It's a balance of art and science, yes - always will be no doubt. It's vitally important that we are vigilant in our process and final development of our grading system.  Will someone always disagree or see it differently, yes but no company will solve that.  All day everyday I see people complaining about this grade or that grade they got from WATA so even the great and powerful WATA isn't satisfying everyone every time.  It's part of the deal.  It's been happening in sports cards for nearly 40 years yet grading survives, the industry thrives and there are multiple graders in the space all very busy.

7 minutes ago, Woobie said:

• How do you intend to quell market fears that its not just a cash grab? I swear every 2 weeks I see a new "company" popping up wanting to start doing grading but it always feels the same, why didnt you start grading 5-6 years ago if that was something you were passionate about doing ? Is it just a "find a need fill a need" business? What do you feel the current competition is "lacking" aside from turn around times?

I guess I'm not convinced that our reasons for starting this business will matter long term.  If we offer a quality product and service people will use us. Businesses make money, that's okay, it's okay for a business to charge you money to provide you a service.  When a free grading company starts they'll be a threat to us all.  So you say cash grab, but what's wrong with starting a business, providing jobs for my community offering a service that people want and doing our absolute best to be successful?  It's tough for this to be a cash grab, thousands up front for a website and backed system, many thousands for case development, engineering and manufacturing, employees, benefits, rent, etc....  to be successful we MUST make it long term and are very committed to doing.

5-6 years ago the market wasn't the same as it is now, I wasn't in the same position in life/business as I am now. 

Hope this helps, happy to follow up if not. 

 

[cromag27 | 46]

10 minutes ago, Jeevan said:

Well good luck to you, I hope you don't mean for it to get worse, kuz honestly that's kinda a dick move......it kinda hurts to see how my hobby has went up in price since i joined and it is really frustrating to those of us who just want to enjoy our childhood games.  If this is where its going, i will still be around, just not buying from speculators/investors.  I truly don't mean any disrespect, but it just sucks that I might have to go cart only because I can't afford a $90 cib chip n dale rescue rangers for nes.  I will get the cart only i guess, but it sure is disappointing not being able to get what i want because folks wanna make a killing on stuff.

I get it, u guys want to make money, more power to ya, I just honestly can't wait till u guys go bye bye so i can get my cib games .  Once again, there is room for all, i just wish that it wasn't hurting me and other collectors in the long run and hurting the hobby for us true hobbyists.

Edit:  cue eyeroll   

i want the market to get stronger. this does not effect what YOU choose to do.

[Hammerfestus | 3,846]

20 minutes ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

Not sure why my age matters.

Never said it did matter per se.  Just unusual from a what is your motivation point of view.  We’ve all been on the internet before and claiming, “I’ve been running businesses since the 80s” absolutely rings of bullshit.  Especially in snarky response to a respected member of our community who gives their comments that you asked for.  That’s some Facebook comment level stuff right there.  
 In conjunction with your unwillingness to respond to inquiries as to your qualifications it does not come off well.  And certainly does not come off as someone with the same values as this community at large with respect to collecting.  You have to understand we get pretty frequent incursions with investor types who regularly condescend to folks who have been doing this 10,20, 30 years and who view themselves as the rightful heirs to the future of game collecting.  

No ones asking you to post your P&Ls. But if you’re going to hope to garner any support you’re going to have to do better than saying you’ll release population reports and posting a video of you wearing gloves. At least when WATA first presented themselves to us on NA they made believe that they were concerned for the community and giving us a homegrown alternative to VGA with plenty of obvious and documented expertise.  

[Jeevan | 8,911]

1 minute ago, cromag27 said:

i want the market to get stronger. this does not effect what YOU choose to do.

Oh but it does affect me greatly when the prices shoot up on a $40 cib.

[drxandy | 3,225]

What kind of games do you play/are you into @VideoGameGradersLLC?

[Code Monkey | 2,010]

I wish you luck and welcome another grading company. It's hard to start a business, especially with a physical product but good for you to try. I personally wouldn't use your services until I found out how extensive your knowledge is regarding a specific variant of game and which inserts should it have for being produced in that time period. Does it have publisher specific inserts or game specific inserts? How was it sealed? I know some games were H-seam, some came from the manufacturer through their website (Natsume) without a seam at all. Some were packaged with a VHS, some with a magazine. Trolls In Crazyland had a Troll doll zip-tied to the front of the box. How many different variants of the Troll were there?

Are you prepared to know all of this? Are you going to tell me if the styrofoam block inside my game is from a 1988 game and doesn't belong in my 1987 game because it's the wrong style? How would you grade a PlayStation game with a hole punch through the UPC? Would that affect the grade?

It's not as simple as getting the same style of game over and over, you're going to get a lot of crazy, unique items you need to know about.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

41 minutes ago, cromag27 said:

i hear ya. but us investors are here to stay, and there will only be more down the line. it’s going to get “worse” before it get better!  but there’s room for everyone.

The longer people with more money than smarts stay, the better for some of us. 
 

I have milked thousands out of people trying to ride the wave, I personally know some others who have probably made 100k+ 
 

Will people make money off the games I sold? Maybe. But they didnt pay 10$ for it then sell for 1500$   

 

And flexing the whole “I am investor and these other plebs have no idea” mindset is going to get you a lot of hate in the community, deserved or not. 
 

I personally invest in real world investments, like my 401k property or precious metals. But what do I know, I collect cart only

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

2 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

  We’ve all been on the internet before and claiming, “I’ve been running businesses since the 80s” absolutely rings of bullshit.  

Okay, if you don't take people at their word then I suppose it would ring of BS, I can't change your opinion on that all I can do is answer people who are asking about my background. What level of detail do you want or expect?

Especially in snarky response to a respected member of our community who gives their comments that you asked for.  That’s some Facebook comment level stuff right there.  

Easy to misinterpret  intent and tone with the written word.  I was attacked for lack of experience which is simply not accurate, and perhaps I should have been more careful with my words.  I did not mean any disrespect and apologize if responding to snark with snark offended anyone. 

 In conjunction with your unwillingness to respond to inquiries as to your qualifications it does not come off well.  And certainly does not come off as someone with the same values as this community at large with respect to collecting.  You have to understand we get pretty frequent incursions with investor types who regularly condescend to folks who have been doing this 10,20, 30 years and who view themselves as the rightful heirs to the future of game collecting.  

I feel like I have answered every single question asked in the past 18 hours as thoroughly as is reasonable.  

No ones asking you to post your P&Ls. But if you’re going to hope to garner any support you’re going to have to do better than saying you’ll release population reports and posting a video of you wearing gloves.

Agree, and I have said much more than just that.  You didn't like the shoestring budget video?

At least when WATA first presented themselves to us on NA they made believe that they were concerned for the community and giving us a homegrown alternative to VGA with plenty of obvious and documented expertise.  

That was an absolute must for this group now and then but the market is now much larger than just this group - which probably explains some of the animosity here, this hobby is no longer contained to this community, there are new people entering it everyday who know nothing about this group and will be buying and selling games ever day.  Is WATA still in this group, are they still participating at the same level or have they become a business making money?

 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

24 minutes ago, drxandy said:

What kind of games do you play/are you into @VideoGameGradersLLC?

I am a big fan of what I played as a kind, Atari 2600 and NES games but more than anything I enjoy playing with my son who is now 17 but every once in a while still plays Mario with Dad like when he was little (and I was still better than him at video games) and we worked for hours and hours to beat Super Mario Galaxy as a family. 

And you can follow my countdown of my favorite NES Black Box games on Twitter this month, non OG 30 countdown in April.

Edited March 5, 2021 by VideoGameGradersLLC
And sports games, love sports game. Golf, Madden, FIFA

[cromag27 | 46]

12 minutes ago, Jeevan said:

Oh but it does affect me greatly when the prices shoot up on a $40 cib.

nobody is forcing you to pay any price. 

[OptOut | 8,884]

3 minutes ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

 You didn't like the shoestring budget video? 

Oh, I certainly did!  

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

5 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

I personally invest in real world investments, like my 401k property or precious metals. But what do I know

Probably very smart but compare the sports card market over the past 30 years to any so called traditional investment market.  Of course traditional investments have many, many more years to prove their value but collecting as an investment is not fool's gold. 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

1 minute ago, OptOut said:

Oh, I certainly did!  

I could tell - thanks!