General Current Events/Political Discussion

[cartman | 195]

15 minutes ago, captmorgandrinker said:

You can stop it now.

I did stop it.

[Silent Hill | 276]

8 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

27 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

I can't find where Trump supported the driver of that car, or supported white nationalists/neo-nazis, though his statement about "good people on both sides" wasn't the best thing to say. I honestly don't think his intention was to claim that any white nationalist or neo-nazi are "good people", especially since he condemned them earlier in his statement.

Regardless, I don't care for Trump and I don't think he's a good president (he talks straight from the ass, though he has done some good things). That said, I sure as shit don't respect people like the Mayor of Seattle. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

My biggest concern with Biden is that he's made tons of racist remarks over his tenure and I'm not aware of anything he's done over 40+ years to help the minority communities, in fact there's quite a few things he's done to stunt their improvement. At least Trump has implemented things that have impacted minorities (especially black people) in a positive way. 

 

I mean, we all know that Trump is racist, But the common argument seems to be “well we don’t know what he is thinking“ . 

 

Yes we do. Trump can be read like a book, and is constantly getting played by other countries like China and Russia.

 

I’ll be voting for Biden for the sheer fact that he’s not a degenerate liar and he will try to improve America standing on the world stage.
 

Oh and he admits when hes wrong. 
 

and I don’t feel that he’s going to accuse Donald Trump of treason if Trump gets voted out baselessly (Although I can’t wait to see Trump get tied up in court for years- Fingers crossed he does go to jail for treason)

Fair enough. I hope yours and other's confidence in Biden is justified if he's elected. I for one am not confident based on his lackluster political career and history (and current trend) of racist remarks. I think he'll appease the mob to win the vote, then turn around and not do shit. (PS. Biden has habitually lied for years about his involvement with Civil Rights)

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

15 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Are we talking about the same Joe Biden here? He's made countless racist remarks and I'm not aware of anything he's done to help the black community in his 40+ year tenure. (Though I'm aware of some things he's done to hurt the black community)

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bidens-history-of-controversial-racial-comments
 

Here’s a list from Fox News of six minor things that he said. I’m pretty sure he apologized for all of them, but I didn’t check.

 

I mean, none of them are even on the same level as telling United States House of Representatives to go back to where they came from. 
 

And that’s one thing he said. If you don’t like Biden that’s fine, just don’t completely ignore all the things that Trump does and try to make them equivalent. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Just now, Silent Hill said:

Fair enough. I hope yours and other's confidence in Biden is justified if he's elected. I for one am not confident based on his lackluster political career and history (and current trend) of racist remarks. I think he'll appease the mob to win the vote, then turn around and not do shit. (PS. Biden has habitually lied for years about his involvement with Civil Rights)

I personally can look past most of that and would prefer a president that doesn’t dominate the news cycle 

And I think Biden will be much better for the environment, Trump is absolutely raping what he Can through deregulation

[Estil | 1,265]

2 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Being English is also our heritage.  You want to attend NASCAR races and wave the Union Jack

Actually Hawaii's flag does have a Union Jack.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

@Silent Hill to add - for the record I am not a Biden “Enthusiastic Voter”. But he is a pleasant enough replacement, and much better than the current. 
 

I personally would have voted for someone Much, much “worse” as long as they were true to american ideals and the presidency. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

@Silent Hill to add - for the record I am not a Biden “Enthusiastic Voter”. But he is a pleasant enough replacement, and much better than the current. 
 

I personally would have voted for someone Much, much “worse” as long as they were true to american ideals and the presidency. 

Eh - let's just hope that the trade off of snake oil for brash verbal ignorance is in our favor as a country.

I guess worst case scenario is economy, jobs, education etc. may suffer, but at least we'll have someone who (somewhat incoherently) speaks in a more professional manner, assuming he can keep racist remarks and fibs about his Civil Rights participation off his tongue. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

11 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Eh - let's just hope that the trade off of snake oil for brash verbal ignorance is in our favor as a country.

I guess worst case scenario is economy, jobs, education etc. may suffer, but at least we'll have someone who (somewhat incoherently) speaks in a more professional manner, assuming he can keep racist remarks and fibs about his Civil Rights participation off his tongue. 

I see what you are saying but verbal ignorance is only one piece of the pie with Trump. Its the ego, the corruption, the science denial, the racism. 
 

Is there more racist things Biden has said that fox news cant dig up? Because   His “racist remarks” seem more like “non-pc” things your uncle would say. 
 

Trump is Using one of the worst domestic crisis's  in years as a racist joke (“Kung Flu” anyone?). 
 

Do you honestly see Trumps racist remarks and Bidens as equal? Im trying to understand your reasoning. 
 

 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,585]

...don't forget the endless efforts to pit Americans against one another, demonize any and all press that didn't deify him, efforts to make various officials swear "loyalty" to him, complete fuckery of the entire pandemic response...

I think deep in there somewhere, Trump's emphasis of economy over all else isn't actually the worst idea in the world, and another administration could really learn from it.

But he is a terrible, terrible, terrible leader.  Just mindnumblingly horrible at it.

[G-type | 2,525]

I really hate our two party system. I think Biden is a terrible candidate, but Trump is an existential threat. In an ideal world I could just vote my conscience with some third party, but in this situation, I really don't know if want to risk a second Trump term.

Reworking our electoral system would be one way to fix this problem of always being forced to pick "the lesser of two evils"... National popular/ranked choice voting. There's a reason no other democracy in the world has ever tried to imitate our convoluted electoral college system... Because it makes ZERO sense! yes, yes... I know that would mean California and New York would have more power than Nebraska, but if you are making that argument, you are still thinking of it in terms of each state making a choice and deserving equal representation, rather than viewing it as one country. The fact is smaller, less populated states don't deserved to represented equally to a state with 20x their population. Democracy is simple to understand. One person = one vote. Every vote is counted equally. Ranked choice would eliminate the problem of "throwing your vote away" on a candidate you really want, or having to worry about "splitting the vote" among a popular majority group, and losing to the unified minority.

[Estil | 1,265]

10 minutes ago, G-type said:

I really hate our two party system. I think Biden is a terrible candidate, but Trump is an existential threat. In an ideal world I could just vote my conscience with some third party, but in this situation, I really don't know if want to risk a second Trump term.

Reworking our electoral system would be one way to fix this problem of always being forced to pick "the lesser of two evils"... National popular/ranked choice voting. There's a reason no other democracy in the world has ever tried to imitate our convoluted electoral college system... Because it makes ZERO sense! yes, yes... I know that would mean California and New York would have more power than Nebraska, but if you are making that argument, you are still thinking of it in terms of each state making a choice and deserving equal representation, rather than viewing it as one country. The fact is smaller, less populated states don't deserved to represented equally to a state with 20x their population. Democracy is simple to understand. One person = one vote. Every vote is counted equally. Ranked choice would eliminate the problem of "throwing your vote away" on a candidate you really want, or having to worry about "splitting the vote" among a popular majority group, and losing to the unified minority.

So does this mean we should not have "equal suffrage in the Senate"?  That's actually the only thing the Constitution does NOT allow Amendments for; no state "without its consent" shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.  Now why in the world any state would choose to have less representation in the Senate is beyond me...unless maybe one of those tiny places like Guam or the Virgin Islands or something wanted to become a state but had too small a population and offered to make do with one Senator to get the needed support to become a state?  *shrugs* I dunno...

You do know if we went by popular vote and it too required a majority, the 1992/1996/2000 elections would've had to have been decided in the House/Senate?  In fact, with R's in the House/Senate at the time it's quite possible they could've chosen Bob Dole!  Think that sounds ridiculous?  Check this out...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1824_United_States_presidential_election

The only other alternative (again if a majority is required; not just a plurality) would be a run-off election between the top two candidates in the event that no candidate gets a majority of the popular vote the first time around.  You guys really want to have TWO Election Days/cycles?

All I can say to those who are clamoring for getting rid of the Electoral College...you better be very darn careful with what you wish for!!!

Edited June 25, 2020 by Estil

[G-type | 2,525]

7 minutes ago, Estil said:

So does this mean we should not have "equal suffrage in the Senate"?  That's actually the only thing the Constitution does NOT allow Amendments for; no state "without its consent" shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.  You do know if we went by popular vote and it too required a majority, the 1992/1996/2000 elections would've had to have been decided in the House/Senate?  In fact, with R's in the House/Senate at the time it's quite possible they could've chosen Bob Dole!  Think that sounds ridiculous?  Check this out...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1824_United_States_presidential_election

The only other alternative (again if a majority is required; not just a plurality) would be a run-off election between the top two candidates in the event that no candidate gets a majority of the popular vote the first time around.  You guys really want to have TWO Election Days/cycles?

All I can say to those who are clamoring for getting rid of the Electoral College...you better be very darn careful with what you wish for!!!

I think the Senate should be abolished. We only need the House of Representatives. The constitution probably needs to be redone from scratch. The world has changed a lot since it was written and it can only be patched and plastered so much.

I also think Supreme Court appointments should have term limits.

Edited June 25, 2020 by G-type

[Silent Hill | 276]

1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

I see what you are saying but verbal ignorance is only one piece of the pie with Trump. Its the ego, the corruption, the science denial, the racism. 
 

Is there more racist things Biden has said that fox news cant dig up? Because   His “racist remarks” seem more like “non-pc” things your uncle would say. 
 

Trump is Using one of the worst domestic crisis's  in years as a racist joke (“Kung Flu” anyone?). 
 

Do you honestly see Trumps racist remarks and Bidens as equal? Im trying to understand your reasoning. 
 

 

They're both demented, one is just as slimy as the other. 

To me "Kung Flu" and calling Obama "the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean." are neck and neck. But I'm not favoring one or the other per se, regarding their remarks. 

My only concern at the moment is really the potential growth/momentum of the racial division and violence associated with the movement. With their moving targets of racism and lack of a tangible plan, I can't say I see an end in sight. 

 

Look at this: https://www.newsbreak.com/washington/seattle/news/0PPBvRrO/chop-in-seattle-has-black-only-racially-segregated-zone

Or this: 

 

 

That's the type of shit I'm worried about. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Silent Hill

[Silent Hill | 276]

1 hour ago, Reed Rothchild said:

...don't forget the endless efforts to pit Americans against one another, demonize any and all press that don't deify him them, efforts to make various officials everyone swear "loyalty" to him, them

 

Am I crazy or does slightly tweaking this correlate pretty well to the BLM extremists?

Edited June 25, 2020 by Silent Hill

[Estil | 1,265]

7 minutes ago, G-type said:

I think the Senate should be abolished. We only need the House of Representatives. The constitution probably needs to be redone from scratch. The world has changed a lot since it was written and it can only be patched and plastered so much.

I also think Supreme Court appointments should have term limits.

I strongly disagree with just "starting over from scratch" on the Constitution...in fact I consider it a great point of pride for our great country that we've not only had the same Constitution/Bill of Rights for ~230 years but it's only have 17 Amendments since then.  The last one was in 1992 and the other one before that was in 1971.  And it should be really difficult to change the Constitution (2/3 House/Senate, 3/4 state legislatures)...but not impossible like it was in the Articles of Confederation (all 13 states had to agree, meaning just like the permanent members of the UN Security Council, each state had absolute veto power).

BTW here's what happened the last time a serious attempt was made to change/reform the Supreme Court...and where the phrase "a switch in time saves nine" comes from...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Procedures_Reform_Bill_of_1937

One Constitutional amendment I would like very much to see would be to allow the President to have line item veto power...this was tried in the mid-late 90s (incredibly a Republican Congress chose to upgrade a key Presidential power...with a Democratic President!!).  The idea was that the President could cross out/veto parts of the bill like clear pork barrel spending, silly irrelevant parts/riders in the bill and so on...but the SCOTUS ruled (I must admit they ruled correctly if I'm really serious about the whole strict constructionist thing) that the Constitution makes very plain that the President's veto power is an all or nothing deal.  The fact that during the line item veto era was the only time in fairly recent memory we had a budget surplus is NOT a coincidence.  I honestly don't think there's any realistic chance we'll ever see anywhere close to a budge surplus without it.

How about this idea for a Constitutional change that I saw in one of my school textbooks way back in the day (under one of their "You Decide!" boxes/feature)?  I don't personally support the idea but it is an interesting one...George Washington only very reluctantly went along with severing a second term...so he could've easily established a one-and-done term tradition.  The proposal from that textbook would be if we did like Mexico and have our President serve ONE six year term, and that's all they get.  My main concern with that and term limits in general is that they take away (at least sometimes) from the voters one of our most sacred rights as voters...the power to vote someone out of office.

[Estil | 1,265]

6 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Am I crazy or does slightly tweaking this correlate pretty well to the BLM extremists?

Not at all.  And I'm all but certain that if the mainstream BLM continues to fail to denounce and condemn these extremists and their antics, BLM's popular support will go thusly...

[Estil | 1,265]

17 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

They're both demented, one is just as slimy as the other. 

To me "Kung Flu" and calling Obama "the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean." are neck and neck. But I'm not favoring one or the other per se, regarding their remarks. 

My only concern at the moment is really the potential growth/momentum of the racial division and violence associated with the movement. With their moving targets of racism and lack of a tangible plan, I can't say I see an end in sight. 

Look at this: https://www.newsbreak.com/washington/seattle/news/0PPBvRrO/chop-in-seattle-has-black-only-racially-segregated-zone

That's the type of shit I'm worried about. 

Maybe racism works like cholesterol...there's the bad cholesterol (racism against people of color) and the good cholesterol (racism against white people).  While racism (the real kind where someone is openly racist or really does something racist, not this made up dog whistling crap) for the past 50 years has been completely unacceptable and appealing for most people when it's against a person of color.  But when it's done against a white person that's the GOOD kind of racism...I'm guessing the idea is to "get back" at those racists from the past.  I mean it's not like hardly anyone cares about or thinks that kind of racism or really lots of other forms of discrimination (ageism, until very recently male victims of domestic violence, using the "r" word as a slang term, and so on) is not really that big a deal.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

40 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

 

Am I crazy or does slightly tweaking this correlate pretty well to the BLM extremists?

Yeah except one is a movement, with no actual structure and one is the president of the united states? Somehow those arent equal.

I see what you are getting at Though.  Your stance that Biden=Trump because one time Biden said something off color doesnt make sense to me, however. Im not going to try to convince you anymore

 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,585]

Please @Estil.  Describe the worst time you've been discriminated against for being white.  Maybe someone called you a cracker or gringo or something?

I'm honestly pretty middlish on a lot of the issues we're talking about right now, but I also honestly think most whites have no fucking idea what they're (we're?) talking about.  "Made up racism."  Yeah, they're all marching, yet you know their lives better than them.  From the safety of your apartment no less.

[Estil | 1,265]

49 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Please @Estil.  Describe the worst time you've been discriminated against for being white.  Maybe someone called you a cracker or gringo or something?

I'm honestly pretty middlish on a lot of the issues we're talking about right now, but I also honestly think most whites have no fucking idea what they're (we're?) talking about.  "Made up racism."  Yeah, they're all marching, yet you know their lives better than them.  From the safety of your apartment no less.

I never said I was discriminated for being white.  I HAVE sometimes been discriminated against because of age and disability though.  I'd rather not go into details because I don't want to reopen old wounds but let me tell you, it doesn't have to be the illegal kind of discrimination for it to be gravely wrong and impact the recipient of it...sometimes just as much maybe worse.

And there is TONS of fake racism that has been going on...that whole freaking out over what turned out to be a garage door pull in a NASCAR garage is only the latest and I must say embarrassing example.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,585]

Yeah, and were you okay with it?  Because it's not okay.  If one of my kids had your condition, it would keep me up at night the shit they'd have to endure.

Now extrapolate that to tens of millions of people, who carry the source of the prejudice against them in an incredibly visible way.  

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

26 minutes ago, Estil said:

I never said I was discriminated for being white.  I HAVE sometimes been discriminated against because of age and disability though.  I'd rather not go into details because I don't want to reopen old wounds but let me tell you, it doesn't have to be the illegal kind of discrimination for it to be gravely wrong and impact the recipient of it...sometimes just as much maybe worse.

It feels really shitty to be discriminated against for something you have no control over doesn't it? You'd think you have more empathy...

27 minutes ago, Estil said:

And there is TONS of fake racism that has been going on...that whole freaking out over what turned out to be a garage door pull in a NASCAR garage is only the latest and I must say embarrassing example.

Let's be clear here. The guy didn't know it was a door pull. He told the driver he found a noose in the garage. It had been there for months and the driver was assigned that garage that week. The guy had no clue. He didn't make it up and it wasn't fake, it was just a misunderstanding. I'm so glad it wasn't a real act of racism. If it had been, it would have been mortifying. 

[Estil | 1,265]

57 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Yeah, and were you okay with it?  Because it's not okay.  If one of my kids had your condition, it would keep me up at night the shit they'd have to endure.

Now extrapolate that to tens of millions of people, who carry the source of the prejudice against them in an incredibly visible way.  

All that is true, but I feel especially bad for the ones who are under the kind of prejudice/discrimination that don't get to be "incredibly visible" or hardly visible at all.  You know, the kinds of discriminating or terrible diseases or whatnot that don't get hardly any attention at all?  Or perhaps are often downplayed and not treated as nearly a big deal as the more visible/talked about kinds of discrimination/diseases/etc?

As for @CodysGameRoom questioning my level of empathy, that's all the more reason I can't stand the radical extremists (which are selfishly taking attention away from the issues/reforms/etc that really do and should get the media attention)...if the mainstream BLM did renounce them and did make their cause known in a more persuasive way and like other movements, try as best they can to make their cause/movement look good...I think they would do far better in winning the hearts and minds of people, most of whom do genuinely want equal and fair justice for blacks and everyone else and DO want reforms in police and elsewhere.

[Estil | 1,265]

41 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

It feels really shitty to be discriminated against for something you have no control over doesn't it? You'd think you have more empathy...

Let's be clear here. The guy didn't know it was a door pull. He told the driver he found a noose in the garage. It had been there for months and the driver was assigned that garage that week. The guy had no clue. He didn't make it up and it wasn't fake, it was just a misunderstanding. I'm so glad it wasn't a real act of racism. If it had been, it would have been mortifying. 

The guy may not have had a clue and I'm sure he did have an honest concern...but boy was the media so eager to hype it up and fan the flames without first finding out for sure what it really was.  This happens time and time and time again...

[Link | 2,731]

13 hours ago, Silent Hill said:

Sure, there is a disparity in police shootings towards black people, but your source doesn't investigate or highlight the "why" (interaction rate, community demographics, crime, etc.), doesn't address unarmed vs. armed and doesn't address the race of the officer(s) involved. Your second link doesn't show a rising trend. 

 

Homicide rates have dropped YOY since 2016 (~35% decrease from 2016 - 2019), were you implying that it rose when more police were hired?

Closing of schools never seems like a good solution, but that article you linked describes the reason why they did it and their intentions of placing those kids in schools that have higher achievement ratings. Haven't looked into whether that ended up helping or not, but their intentions seemed good in 2013. 

There is another level of “why”s behind interaction rate as I noted earlier. 

Why would community demographics be a factor? 

Homicide rates falling YOY, after I re-check myself, you are correct. I vary my media consumption so I admit that is some surprise to me with all the screaming about “thugs” I see. Especially right now, with “104 shootings over Father’s Day weekend, 14 of them fatal”. Homicide-specific raw numbers aside, any source I can find says that the crime rate here remains among the highest in the country. That is the basis for my prior post. 

Some people blame black people. Some blame democratic leadership. I blame problems with the system not taking care of our people. Whatever the true source of the problem, and I am certain there are too many factors to count on fingers and toes, the police here have no small part in the violence and oppression, from the Haymarket riots, to the 1968 DNC, to torture under police commander Jon Burge, to the black site at Homan Square, to the murder of Laquan McDonald, a teenager who, yes, was intoxicated, and did have a [butter] knife — and who was shot by Jason Van Dyke 16 times in the back when he was 20-30 feet away from Van Dyke and other police officers, who did not intervene even though McDonald was in further retreat the whole time.

Anyway. The people in the neighborhoods affected by school closings were desperate to stop them. As a 3rd party support vendor for the school district at the time, I was a little bit close to the situation; I had to make a map of where the kids would be reassigned for my coworkers to field calls on weekends (very unusual) as information didn’t get out effectively. From the outside I understand how the presentation sounds nice and practical, but for the parents and teachers and other stakeholders, it was a bad idea, and “Mayor 1%” (a democrat btw, one who advised presidents Clinton and Obama— let it never be said I am hard party line) led the process very poorly. And as usual, it disproportionately affected black people. 

He’s not the mayor any more. Mainly due to the McDonald tape, which he tried to suppress.