The Spreading (And Potentially Deadly) Coronavirus Epidemic....

[fcgamer | 4,746]

We've seen a lot of idiots on this whole pandemic, yeah @arch_8ngel I get you and many others don't like Trump, but the real idiots are Tedros and everyone that listened to him and the WHO's advice. I clearly remember stating very early on that the WHO is a joke, I was shut down for it, but what do I know? What I do know is that I'm living a relatively normal life, going to work, going out to shop for fun, exercising, going out for coffee dates or to eat, and everyone that listened to China WHO isn't. 

So everyone here can go ahead and bash President Trump more, take things out of context, etc, but at least he's pushing back against China quite a bit. China's the real reason you guys are in this mess, as well as WHO. Period.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

13 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

We've seen a lot of idiots on this whole pandemic, yeah @arch_8ngel I get you and many others don't like Trump, but the real idiots are Tedros and everyone that listened to him and the WHO's advice. I clearly remember stating very early on that the WHO is a joke, I was shut down for it, but what do I know? What I do know is that I'm living a relatively normal life, going to work, going out to shop for fun, exercising, going out for coffee dates or to eat, and everyone that listened to China WHO isn't. 

So everyone here can go ahead and bash President Trump more, take things out of context, etc, but at least he's pushing back against China quite a bit. China's the real reason you guys are in this mess, as well as WHO. Period.

While China definitely gets a huge share of the blame, Trump spent a lot of wasted time and effort downplaying early guidance from health experts, and now we are dealing with the consequences of a lack of meaningful early leadership.

And he is trying to make up for it now with assinine suggestions like his "brainstorming session" during a press conference.

That kind of brainstorming is literally "worse than useless", and in fact is materially detrimental to public trust.

No amount of him blaming China makes up for him being unsuited to his current level of responsibility.

[Andy_Bogomil | 815]

The fact that some people give Trump any credibility at this point in time is absolutely mind blowing. The only way to defend his stupidity is by continuously lowering standards to an abysmal level. 

[fcgamer | 4,746]

19 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

While China definitely gets a huge share of the blame, Trump spent a lot of wasted time and effort downplaying early guidance from health experts, and now we are dealing with the consequences of a lack of meaningful early leadership.

And he is trying to make up for it now with assinine suggestions like his "brainstorming session" during a press conference.

That kind of brainstorming is literally "worse than useless", and in fact is materially detrimental to public trust.

No amount of him blaming China makes up for him being unsuited to his current level of responsibility.

I'll say it again, and I want to hear a meaningful response back. You're intelligent, flaunt your intelligence.

As things initially kicked off, Taiwan inquired or mentioned about people to people transmission. WHO refused to pass on this appropriate information, since Taiwan is not allowed to partake in events, due to China. Tedros is pro China, btw, look at his political status and also check out the relationship China has with his country.

Originally WHO said masks were useless, said it couldn't be spread from person to person, etc. They spread false information across the world just to protect China's image. 

So ok, Trump puts things in layman's terms, and he's not a doctor. Sure, you and many others are out to crucify the guy, he can't win no matter what he does. But let's think also, would Obama have done better? Clinton (either of them)? Biden? No, not at all.

The situation spiralling out of control all goes back to the WHO and China. Period. The ONLY reason Taiwan is doing better than the rest of the world is because they were bullied into being omitted, and therefore have to do things for themselves. 

If you feel it's a president issue, then ask some folks in Norway. I have some good friends living there, they say it's being handled piss poor. Would Italian people feel their country is handling it well? England? Even in China there's a lot if people in Wuhan pissed off about the whole thing, as they go to collect family members in urns.

[fcgamer | 4,746]

5 minutes ago, Andy_Bogomil said:

The fact that some people give Trump any credibility at this point in time is absolutely mind blowing. The only way to defend his stupidity is by continuously lowering standards to an abysmal level. 

Cool story bro.

[Estil | 1,265]

59 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

We've seen a lot of idiots on this whole pandemic, yeah @arch_8ngel I get you and many others don't like Trump

Many others???  This is pretty much an Orange Man Bad anti-Trump echo chamber!!  I've yet to see any Trump supporters on here at all; myself and maybe one or two others are at least conservative leaning and though I support the President in the broadest general sense, I not really what you call a true Trump supporter (like the kind who are really into his rallies and such).  That's because for the longest time after he started his run, I honestly wasn't convinced he was truly "for real" in terms of his chances; he just seemed like a weird/oddball sort of candidate like Ross Perot in 1992, whereas I imagine the true Trump fans were with him from the time or shortly after he did that whole coming down the escalator thing.  One thing's for sure; I'd much rather give him the benefit of the doubt instead of the radical left media/celebs/politicians any day of the week! 

In terms of debating individual issues rather than any particular individual politician (President or otherwise) OTOH, I do sometimes get some agreement on here so at least it's more a fair fight (as opposed to 5-6 anti-Trumpers ganging up on one individual).  And like most everyone, politicians and us regular folk alike, I know much more about some issues than others.  My main weaknesses in terms of how well I understand/know individual issues is the economy and gov't health care...I mean we've had the very best and brightest minds tackle these for several decades and they can't close to figuring it out, what chance do I, Joe Videogamer from Anytown, KY have of making sense of it?  I can usually make a better case in terms of how I feel on social, historical (because all the hype and such would've long since died down and a fairer assessment can be made) and Constitutional interpretation sorts of issues.  And of course there's some issues in sports and video gaming too I've already discussed at length here.

I mean, like Michael Jordan would say, don't Republicans (as well as Trump supporters) buy and play video games too?

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

32 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I'll say it again, and I want to hear a meaningful response back. You're intelligent, flaunt your intelligence.

As things initially kicked off, Taiwan inquired or mentioned about people to people transmission. WHO refused to pass on this appropriate information, since Taiwan is not allowed to partake in events, due to China. Tedros is pro China, btw, look at his political status and also check out the relationship China has with his country.

Originally WHO said masks were useless, said it couldn't be spread from person to person, etc. They spread false information across the world just to protect China's image. 

So ok, Trump puts things in layman's terms, and he's not a doctor. Sure, you and many others are out to crucify the guy, he can't win no matter what he does. But let's think also, would Obama have done better? Clinton (either of them)? Biden? No, not at all.

The situation spiralling out of control all goes back to the WHO and China. Period. The ONLY reason Taiwan is doing better than the rest of the world is because they were bullied into being omitted, and therefore have to do things for themselves. 

If you feel it's a president issue, then ask some folks in Norway. I have some good friends living there, they say it's being handled piss poor. Would Italian people feel their country is handling it well? England? Even in China there's a lot if people in Wuhan pissed off about the whole thing, as they go to collect family members in urns.

It is ridiculous to think that any former president would be saying the kind of stupid stuff that Trump is saying right now.

I would have expected any former president to defer to the top medical experts and then only say carefully crafted, pre-determined, statements rather than speak their mind off-the-cuff and countermand those same medical experts.  (and avoid the even worse optics of firing medical experts that correct the president's wrong statements)

 

There was good information about the risks of how this disease spread LONG BEFORE Trump was ever making official statements about it being a serious issue.

And in fact, while that information was out, he was actively downplaying the severity.

 

 

China is primarily to blame to the entire situation being set in motion, absolutely.

But they don't have a hand in how Trump actively undermines our nation's medical experts.  Or put words in his mouth that make him look like a total buffoon when he attempts to say anything about public health or medical treatment with any kind of authority.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

3 minutes ago, Estil said:

Many others???  This is pretty much an Orange Man Bad anti-Trump echo chamber!! 

From the get-go Trump openly stated he "accepts no responsibility" for how the situation was unfolding, despite that comment coming on the heels of him having spent critical early days of prep failing to prepare and instead actively downplaying concerns.

A more pathetic level of "leadership" doesn't exist, when we are that far gone from "the buck stops here".

Edited April 24, 2020 by arch_8ngel

[Estil | 1,265]

2 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

From the get-go Trump openly stated he "accepts no responsibility" for how the situation was unfolding, despite that comment coming on the heels of him having spent critical early days of prep failing to prepare and instead actively downplaying concerns.

A more pathetic level of "leadership" doesn't exist, when we are that far gone from "the buck stops here".

So you weren't just as much if not more so into the whole Bush Derangement Syndrome back in its day?  Because trust me (and I've seen it first hand in my college days) the sheer hatred and contempt for Bush by the radical left was just as bad if not worse than it is for Trump today.  Though of course we didn't have nearly as much social media in those days.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Estil

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

40 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

So ok, Trump puts things in layman's terms, and he's not a doctor. Sure, you and many others are out to crucify the guy, he can't win no matter what he does. But let's think also, would Obama have done better? Clinton (either of them)? Biden? No, not at all.

Let me try and ask this in a way that you and Estil aren't going to take as "orange man bad", since my criticism of him is considerably better informed than that...

 

Do you think Trump is actually doing a good job right now?

Do you think that the public statements Trump is making are actually well-informed and show an understanding of the problem and legitimate potential solutions?

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

6 minutes ago, Estil said:

So you weren't just as much if not more so into the whole Bush Derangement Syndrome back in its day?  Because trust me (and I've seen it first hand in my college days) the sheer hatred and contempt for Bush by the radical left was just as bad if not worse than it is for Trump today.  Though of course we didn't have nearly as much social media in those days.

No, I wasn't at all.  And if you think my views are anywhere close to "radical left" you need to recalibrate your radar.

(and frankly, characterizing any and all criticism of Trump as "Trump Derangement Syndrome" is a really sad way to downplay loads of very legitimate criticism)

Edited April 24, 2020 by arch_8ngel

[Estil | 1,265]

Just now, arch_8ngel said:

Let me try and ask this in a way that you and Estil aren't going to take as "orange man bad", since my criticism of him is considerably better informed than that...

Do you think Trump is actually doing a good job right now?

Do you think that the public statements Trump is making are actually well-informed and show an understanding of the problem and legitimate potential solutions?

In terms of overall on the balance sheet yes I think he and most of the governors (yes including our own in KY and I'm saying that as a registered Republican) are dealing with this pretty much as best as can be reasonably expected...I mean I am in no position in a million years to be doing any sort of armchair quarterbacking on this one....on this one all most of us regular individuals can do is do our best not to take any unnecessary chances.  I couldn't care less who gives the credit/blame or whatever, i just hope and pray this virus thing gets past us sooner rather than later.

[Estil | 1,265]

6 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

No, I wasn't at all.  And if you think my views are anywhere close to "radical left" you need to recalibrate your radar.

I never said anyone's views on here individually are the "radical left" or anything else besides anti-Trump (I mean there are ones on here like yourself that clearly can't stand him at all).  I make that distinction for the really crazy leftists among the celeb/media/political ranks.  Don't make presumptions about me or what I think of any individual person on here unless I have said it for myself.  Because as my wife's so famous for saying, we all know what happens when someone ASS-u-mes.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Estil

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

1 minute ago, Estil said:

In terms of overall on the balance sheet yes I think he and most of the governors (yes including our own in KY and I'm saying that as a registered Republican) are dealing with this pretty much as best as can be reasonably expected...I mean I am in no position in a million years to be doing any sort of armchair quarterbacking on this one....on this one all most of us regular individuals can do is do our best not to take any unnecessary chances.  I couldn't care less who gives the credit/blame or whatever, i just hope and pray this virus thing gets past us sooner rather than later.

So you think Trump was doing a "good job" when he posted tweets about "liberating" Virginia and other states?  And then had to backpedal recently and say he thought GA was opening back up too early?

That seems like a well-though-out thing for him to have done?  Really?

[fcgamer | 4,746]

4 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Let me try and ask this in a way that you and Estil aren't going to take as "orange man bad", since my criticism of him is considerably better informed than that...

 

Do you think Trump is actually doing a good job right now?

Do you think that the public statements Trump is making are actually well-informed and show an understanding of the problem and legitimate potential solutions?

I still want to know about WHO, Chairman Xi, etc. The whole thing.

As mentioned earlier, the reason I'm showing up to work and most of you guys aren't is because of WHO. Period. Whether the president brainstorms in layman's terms, in public, or not, doesn't have nearly the negative effect as whether the leader of WHO lies and refuses to pass on valuable information to other countries. Period. You are in the situation you are in because vital information was downplayed and not passed on , all because of the WHO and China sleeping together. Period.

From what I've seen of other presidents, such as Obama, things would not have ended better. He wouldn't even try to stand up to China. And why is the world facing this pandemic again? Oh wait, yeh, because no body stood up to China, not even the WHO.

[Estil | 1,265]

Just now, arch_8ngel said:

So you think Trump was doing a "good job" when he posted tweets about "liberating" Virginia and other states?  And then had to backpedal recently and say he thought GA was opening back up too early?

That seems like a well-though-out thing for him to have done?  Really?

I said overall on the balance sheet, not any move he made individually.  And yes I've gone on record cautioning about reopening too soon too quickly.

[Estil | 1,265]

1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

From what I've seen of other presidents, such as Obama, things would not have ended better. He wouldn't even try to stand up to China. And why is the world facing this pandemic again? Oh wait, yeh, because no body stood up to China, not even the WHO.

Like I've already said before, I am very very glad I'm not the President or any of the governors or any of the other major figures that have to make these kinds of decisions on something most people didn't see coming and that we've not dealt with in 100 years.  I'd be in full blown panic mode and be way too indecisive and scarred to death of making any mistakes at all....I don't see how any of them can do it, I really don't.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

Just now, fcgamer said:

I still want to know about WHO, Chairman Xi, etc. The whole thing.

As mentioned earlier, the reason I'm showing up to work and most of you guys aren't is because of WHO. Period. Whether the president brainstorms in layman's terms, in public, or not, doesn't have nearly the negative effect as whether the leader of WHO lies and refuses to pass on valuable information to other countries. Period. You are in the situation you are in because vital information was downplayed and not passed on , all because of the WHO and China sleeping together. Period.

From what I've seen of other presidents, such as Obama, things would not have ended better. He wouldn't even try to stand up to China. And why is the world facing this pandemic again? Oh wait, yeh, because no body stood up to China, not even the WHO.

But the president DOES have a SIGNIFICANT negative effect on what "ordinary" Americans do and what sources of information they trust.

If even half of his base pay attention to what he says, versus what legitimate sources say, for guidance, it is enough of a problem to negatively impact the rest of us.

 

The fact of the matter is, no matter what WHO officially said, or what China officially said... it was pretty damn obvious that there was an issue when they locked down 20+ million people in draconian fashion and were actively silencing people that spoke out about what was going on.

Whether you "trust" the WHO guidance or not, intelligence agencies were ringing alarm bells that it was potentially going to be bad.

And AFTER the USA had an active outbreak in Washington state, and confirmed cases from travelers in multiple states Trump was ACTIVELY DOWNPLAYING concerns rather than pro-actively pushing to deal with the issue.

And now, while we are in the midst of it all, he chooses to promote a bunch of nonsense.

[Chuppa | 60]

I enjoy reading these posts and I think there are a lot of good comments on both sides here.  I think there are few things everyone could agree on:

1. This is unprecedented at this global scale, unlike anything we have seen in modern times.

2. Some governors are reacting quicker than the national level is.

3. Many many mistakes were made, even mistakes years ago.  We weren't prepared for this.  I could argue though that no country was prepared for this.

4.  Regardless of what you believe and what you think, we all need to do our best and staying safe and being smart.  We need to get past this being united.

5.  Everyone wants to get back to 'normal' asap.

 

Stay safe my friends.

[Estil | 1,265]

1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said:

And AFTER the USA had an active outbreak in Washington state, and confirmed cases from travelers in multiple states Trump was ACTIVELY DOWNPLAYING concerns rather than pro-actively pushing to deal with the issue.

Of course he did, because he didn't want to cause unnecessary panic (I mean we had enough trouble with people cleaning out stores as it was!!).  He probably was "pro-actively pushing to deal with the issue" behind the scenes.  What he says/does in public (as well as any of us for that matter) and what he says/does behind the scenes are two completely different things and sometimes they really do have to be.

[Estil | 1,265]

1 minute ago, Chuppa said:

I enjoy reading these posts and I think there are a lot of good comments on both sides here.  I think there are few things everyone could agree on:

1. This is unprecedented at this global scale, unlike anything we have seen in modern times.

2. Some governors are reacting quicker than the national level is.

3. Many many mistakes were made, even mistakes years ago.  We weren't prepared for this.  I could argue though that no country was prepared for this.

4.  Regardless of what you believe and what you think, we all need to do our best and staying safe and being smart.  We need to get past this being united.

5.  Everyone wants to get back to 'normal' asap.

Stay safe my friends.

1. I've already mentioned that till I'm UK Blue in the face.  Preaching to the choir on that one.

2. That's not surprising, I mean the state/county/city/local level is where these kinds of things hit closer and closer to home.  Watching an event on the news and having the event directly impact your own everyday life are two totally different things.  You know, like that saying about a recession being when your friend/neighbor loses their job and a depression is when you lose your own?

3. See #1.  Correct me if I'm wrong but the US has seen nothing like this since the 1918 "Spanish" flu (which didn't even come from Spain IIRC)

4. That's all we really can do.  I'm certainly doing my part and I feel really bad for the ones like medical, grocery, and delivery services who have no choice but to keep everything in their field going.

5. I do too but at the same time I got a really really bad feeling many states and such will try to do too much too soon and make the virus spread worse again.  What can I say?  Just like I said about the economy and health care and so on there's nothing even close to any easy answers on this one.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,572]

25 minutes ago, Estil said:

So you weren't just as much if not more so into the whole Bush Derangement Syndrome back in its day?  Because trust me (and I've seen it first hand in my college days) the sheer hatred and contempt for Bush by the radical left was just as bad if not worse than it is for Trump today.  Though of course we didn't have nearly as much social media in those days.

Obama. Presidency.

I don't know what to tell you at this point.  I consider myself moderate.  I voted for Romney and Johnson.  The "orange man" does and says many, many things that are worthy of criticism.  Seems you have a compulsive need to pushback against it, regardless of circumstance.

[fcgamer | 4,746]

You don't want people to panic, period. That leads to panic buying, etc. Neighbours hating neighbours because someone got it. Keeping a cool, rational mind about it is what helps everyone.

If you look at countries all across the globe, you will see people criticizing the leaders. As I said earlier, look at Norway, even people in Wuhan.

The WHO fucked up, period. They politicised something and that's why we are where we are now. 

[Estil | 1,265]

1 minute ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Obama. Presidency.

I don't know what to tell you at this point.  I consider myself moderate.  I voted for Romney and Johnson.  The "orange man" does and says many, many things that are worthy of criticism.  Seems you have a compulsive need to pushback against it, regardless of circumstance.

All public figures do and say many many things that are worthy of criticism.  Once again with your last statement yet another assumption.

As for Obama it was just the opposite, the media/celebs were fawning all over him.  And as far as liberal media bias goes yeah I remember when Bernard Goldberg first spilled the beans about that in his famous Bias book, but it was way way way over the top during the 2016 election by far.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

10 minutes ago, Estil said:

Of course he did, because he didn't want to cause unnecessary panic (I mean we had enough trouble with people cleaning out stores as it was!!).  He probably was "pro-actively pushing to deal with the issue" behind the scenes.  What he says/does in public (as well as any of us for that matter) and what he says/does behind the scenes are two completely different things and sometimes they really do have to be.

There is a difference between avoiding panic (by demonstrating clear leadership and having a plan that involves medical experts) and saying the kind of dumb stuff he was saying back then.

And with a guy like Trump, saying the kind of stupid stuff he has said in public the last couple of days (along with his track record of firing competent people that disagree with him and correct his BS)... I don't have a great deal of confidence that he is magically a whole lot smarter and more articulate behind-the-scenes.