Teh_Lurv | 254 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 2 hours ago, m308gunner said: In regards to the mountain of evidence and testimony, I guess it's true that two people can see the same thing and come away with a completely different interpretation. Trump, as the president, has an obligation to route out corruption when he sees or hears about it. The argument that he was trying to use his office and/or foreign aid to bully a foreign country to investigate a political rival is dubious at best. It doesn't matter if Biden was a political rival or not. In fact, Trump was acting in the best interests of the nation in making sure a future political candidate was not beholden to a foreign nation. That's one of his obligations as the executive branch. And if someone asks why Trump only acted when Biden was riding higher in the polls is missing a critical point. If Biden was not riding higher there would be no point in an investigation of him and his son because there would be little danger in someone compromised by a foreign government getting into the oval office. If Biden sinks, no need for investigation (functionally, unless your aim is pure "justice"), if Biden rises, full need for investigation because the risk rises in pace, assuming there's some corruption there. Exactly when/where else has Trump given a shit about corruption? I think what has been made public it's clear Trump just wanted an announcement of an investigation to tie an albatross around Biden; because the "but her emails!" meme worked for him against Hillary in 2016. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln | 230 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 4 hours ago, m308gunner said: Since it seems to be widely known that the whistleblower was associating with Schiff and his staff long before this incident, and how the Democrats have conducted themselves during the closed hearings I don't lend much credence to their opinions on fairness. Where are you getting this about the whistle blower? Afaik they haven't been outed yet. That's actually one of the major concerns for the Senate trial, that the Republicans would call that person to testify and blow their protection just out of spite. At this point their tip has been corroborated by like 17 people. There's nothing they can say now that justifies exposing them. And its pretty disengenuous to assume their motivation is strictly due to associating with the Dems (which, again, source?) rather than having actual concern over law breaking or abuse of power. And what are you going on about with the closed hearings? Again afaik they were run by the book and both sides had opportunity to do whatever they needed. The only complaints I've heard were from Republicans who were outright lying. Oh and the group that threw a fit and stormed a session they had no clearance for. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link | 2,768 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 5 hours ago, m308gunner said: It doesn't matter if Biden was a political rival or not. In fact, Trump was acting in the best interests of the nation in making sure a future political candidate was not beholden to a foreign nation. That's one of his obligations as the executive branch. And if someone asks why Trump only acted when Biden was riding higher in the polls is missing a critical point. If Biden was not riding higher there would be no point in an investigation of him and his son because there would be little danger in someone compromised by a foreign government getting into the oval office. Ok let me preface this by saying I’m no fan of Biden and I wouldn’t defend his record. He might be as corrupt as anyone for all I know, and what I do know is I don’t agree with him on much if anything, to put it kindly. Do you think The Donald is not beholden to or compromised by a foreign nation? After he literally publicly asked Russia for help during his campaign? After meeting with Putin and not allowing US translators to be present? After bragging about “the most beautiful letter” from Kim Jong-un but not letting anyone see it? And he is going to say that Biden is corrupt for having ties to our ally Ukraine, who is aggressed upon by Russia who is not our ally? Look, I am all for making peace with other countries that we have not been getting along with and try to bring them on board, and I really admire certain aspects of Russian and Korean people and culture. But Jong-un and Putin are despots with innumerable human rights violations. No one, especially not republicans, disputed this before 2016. So to get all cozy and have secret calls and meetings and letters with them, and then say a rival is corrupt for being in bed with another country, that Russia invaded and attempted takeover, is just silly. Why do you buy this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,009 Posted December 20, 2019 Author Share Posted December 20, 2019 21 hours ago, Californication said: Bernie's problem is getting the nomination. Precisely, and I see no reason to believe that he would get it in 2020 after it was stolen from him in 2016. The system was rigged against him them, what would change now? I'll honestly be shocked and pleasantly surprised if anyone besides creepy ole Biden gets the nom, cause I really don't want to vote for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCode | 159 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 20 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said: Precisely, and I see no reason to believe that he would get it in 2020 after it was stolen from him in 2016. The system was rigged against him them, what would change now? I'll honestly be shocked and pleasantly surprised if anyone besides creepy ole Biden gets the nom, cause I really don't want to vote for him. Then don't vote for him. Low turn out and low engagement can send a message. Hell, vote 3rd party if you must. Not voting for one major party but rather a 3rd is not a vote for the other major party. That's like blaming the (hypothetical scenario, not related to the current season) Cowboys for winning and not throwing their last regular season game against the Vikings despite having a losing record because it makes the Eagles miss the wild card. They Cowboys wouldn't owe the Eagles shit (and I say this as an Eagles fan). It's this mentality that keeps us locked in this detrimental 2 party sham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californication | 1,490 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 38 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said: Precisely, and I see no reason to believe that he would get it in 2020 after it was stolen from him in 2016. The system was rigged against him them, what would change now? I'll honestly be shocked and pleasantly surprised if anyone besides creepy ole Biden gets the nom, cause I really don't want to vote for him. I am getting nervous because I don't know if it's going to happen. That being said, 2016 was different. In 2016 Bernie wasn't planning on running, he asked Elizabeth Warren to run and she didn't want to. Bernie ran as an issues candidate, meaning he wanted issues he cared about to get more coverage, but was not planning on being a real contender. By the time Bernie realized people liked his message and would vote for him, it was too late, they didn't have the money and the infrastructure set up to run a top of the line campaign. That is different from 2020, Bernie has a ton of money coming in through small dollar donations and they are campaigning everywhere with a mesaage that resonates. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californication | 1,490 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 8 hours ago, Lincoln said: Where are you getting this about the whistle blower? Afaik they haven't been outed yet. That's actually one of the major concerns for the Senate trial, that the Republicans would call that person to testify and blow their protection just out of spite. At this point their tip has been corroborated by like 17 people. There's nothing they can say now that justifies exposing them. And its pretty disengenuous to assume their motivation is strictly due to associating with the Dems (which, again, source?) rather than having actual concern over law breaking or abuse of power. And what are you going on about with the closed hearings? Again afaik they were run by the book and both sides had opportunity to do whatever they needed. The only complaints I've heard were from Republicans who were outright lying. Oh and the group that threw a fit and stormed a session they had no clearance for. Talking about the whistleblower is silly because the whistleblower was not on the phone call. A binch of people told the whistleblower they were worried about what Trump did on the phone call, all the whistleblower did was put in a complaint, he didn't have first hand knowledge. The call has been confirmed by a bunch of people that were on thr call and a partial transcript has been released. Nothing about the phone call is under debate at this point. And if we are being 100 percent honest, some of the people that gave the whistleblower info. that he turned into a complaint were witnesses in the hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-type | 2,601 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 17 hours ago, m308gunner said: Depending on the topic, there's left, far left, burying the needle, and THEN Scott Adams. The dilbert dude? I'm pretty sure he is a diehard Trump supporter. or was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki | 4,958 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 I can't speak to the facts because they've been so blurred and ruined by all this theater. From the moment they were in shock back in 2016 the DNC has made it a mission to thwart, disown, and destroy Trump. Am I fan of him? No. Do I think personally he's an asshole? Yup. Do I think he has done some good with the economy and some promises kept? Better than your usual politician. Do I think he should get banned from twitter? Definitely. But do I feel he actually broke the law clearly? No. There's nothing there that solidly says he did anything wrong, but things he has done that can look spotty he wasn't the first, even the last administration did it too, it's a common tool to try and bury the other side to win but Trump being a boyscout to the corrupt US political system didn't cover his ass and it got out there. The DNC has burned every bridge they had. They've even burned some of their own weight bearing walls of their own home considering moderate lefties and independents are turning out to get more disgusted and more put off by the more radical mouthy deranged end of that party. I for one can be honest depending on what it is I'm more libertarian, or moderately center/left/right depending on the point being raised. At this rate you have not just a galvanized Trump base, but even more usual sit back and watch right leaning people (RNC registered and not) pissed off and looking to back the party and in turn Trump out of sheer spite. The DNC clowns since taking the house have perpetually tried to subvert the office of the president and process in general instead of doing what they should running the government. This public embarrassment of a so called impeachment process not allowing this or that, doing crap behind closed doors, and the rest in contrast to the Clinton era stuff that was dragged out and public says a lot to how flimsy this bs was to go ahead and ram it through especially so fast. And now that they're not following terms and transmitting their files to the Senate as they're supposed to do leaves the very impeachment in question since it hasn't even been filed with the other half of congress as I write this. I would never have voted for that clown 4 years ago but at this rate I can't even stomach supporting the DNC, nor some clown third party with zero chance since our system keeps them crushed into a joke minority factor that at best is a spoiler against one side or the other in majority. Due to how Obama played his political antics we got ramrodded into Trump, and at this rate I'm equally afraid of seeing some cancerous piece of garbage like Warren or Sanders in there if not now, 4 years after the fact. Mind you I wouldn't hate mud mouth Biden in there though he's amusing. The fact the parties now seem more about screwing the other and damn the population makes me wonder how long the people will take it until they realize they're being gamed against each other. I guess it shows my age but I remember a little of the 80s and the 90s forward well to know they used to disagree, but amicably and could easily work out most issues and government ran better 20 years ago, not now, not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,009 Posted December 20, 2019 Author Share Posted December 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, Tanooki said: But do I feel he actually broke the law clearly? No. There's nothing there that solidly says he did anything wrong He was just impeached. That legally says he broke the law and did something wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln | 230 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said: He was just impeached. That legally says he broke the law and did something wrong. The articles that passed are not directly for breaking the law. They are more like being accused of not doing his duties properly and being unfit to continue holding his position. Still valid reasons to remove him according to the Constitution, but not going to get him convicted in court. Obstruction of Justice and bribery, 2 of the other charges considered, are actual law breaking. I think those were not voted on because it's not as clear cut to prove and it would give the Republicans something to latch on to draw people's attention away from the more easily provable claims. That said Trump is very clearly a criminal who's been skirting the law for decades and finally got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. we might actually see charges against a former president whenever he leaves office. I've seen it suggested that getting elected was probably worst case scenario for Trump because he now has people paying attention to the things he got away with before. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln | 230 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 23 minutes ago, Tanooki said: The DNC has burned every bridge they had. This is right wing talking point bs. The Democrats are doing their jobs. The Republicans are the ones openly declaring they'll defy the law to keep their party in power. And that's after decades of pulling the party hard right to compensate for their shrinking base. There are no bridges left to burn after the right has spent the last 30+ years tearing them down. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulpa | 3,569 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 39 minutes ago, Tanooki said: This public embarrassment of a so called impeachment process not allowing this or that, doing crap behind closed doors, and the rest in contrast to the Clinton era stuff that was dragged out and public says a lot to how flimsy this bs was to go ahead and ram it through especially so fast The Democrats are using the impeachment process that was established by the Republicans. All the closed door stuff has had Republicans present. The Republicans are pitching a fit to get soundbites on Fox News and Breitbart. That's why they've been so disruptive and vocal. Everything has been done by the book, but they're trying to play to the Trump supporters by suggesting otherwise. That's why Nunes and Stefanik played that little stunt during one of the hearings, where Nunes tried to claim she had the right to ask questions when the rules stated only he as the ranking minority member or his council could do that. So in reality, this impeachment is actually playing out the way it is supposed to (and it is being done for a legitimate grievance perpetrated by Trump.) All this chatter about how the Democrats aren't playing by the rules is just right wing propaganda to try to de-legitimatize the process for the crowd that hears what they want to hear. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,009 Posted December 20, 2019 Author Share Posted December 20, 2019 45 minutes ago, Lincoln said: The articles that passed are not directly for breaking the law. They are more like being accused of not doing his duties properly and being unfit to continue holding his position. Still valid reasons to remove him according to the Constitution, but not going to get him convicted in court. That is my misunderstanding. Thanks for clearing that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffeewithmrsaturn | 100 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 Even if people are polarized, everyone should find it disgusting that McConnell and Graham would openly advertise that they have no intention to be impartial jurors. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-type | 2,601 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 in retrospect, Clinton should have been found guilty and removed from office too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m308gunner | 352 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 23 hours ago, MrWunderful said: He encourages animosity. He constantly insults people, including handicapped and deceased. Im not going to bother to name anymore, because if you cant see them, Im not going to convince you, its all good. Who are the two “Ukrainian” sources? Sorry but I just dont Trust Trump to tell the truth. He lies about things that are obvious an known to be incorrect. zZelenski wants nothing to do with any of this, of course he is going to take the path of least resistance. I'd have to be blind and deaf to not agree that he does in fact insult people. No convincing required. I can't say I could wholly agree that he "encourages animosity" in the same way the Democrats have been encouraging it, such as Maxine Waters encouraging people to confront cabinet members in public (no matter the rationale). Ukrain'es foreign minister Vadym Prystaiko and President Zelensky have been quoted by multiple non-Trump sources that they did not feel pressured. All the sources I have read are apparently engaged in mind reading as they all assume he does actually feel pressured, but just won't say it. Their position is that Zelensky felt pressured at the time, but since the situation has gotten so much attention I'm sure they feel pressured now to take the path of least resistance, thus muddying the waters. See my previous comment on Trump's directional honesty vs. his factual honesty. I don't think you'll find anyone acting in good faith that would say they think Trump is a boyscout who only tells the truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m308gunner | 352 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 On 12/19/2019 at 9:53 PM, Tulpa said: Well, I can fault him for that. Why fault someone who, at the very least in their own minds, felt smeared and persecuted from the start before they even stepped into the office? The media and Democrats have been shrieking for over 2 years about the man. If anything it looks like Trump has acted with inhuman restraint given the circumstances. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m308gunner | 352 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 22 hours ago, Teh_Lurv said: Exactly when/where else has Trump given a shit about corruption? I think what has been made public it's clear Trump just wanted an announcement of an investigation to tie an albatross around Biden; because the "but her emails!" meme worked for him against Hillary in 2016. As stated before, he didn't have to care about Biden's possible corruption (which if any evidence exists I haven't been made aware of yet) until it appeared Biden was a possible presidential front runner. Until the threat rose to a certain degree no action was required because the danger was very low. I do not care about Trump's personal intentions as long as they are also aligned with our nation's best interests, in that we should make sure a person is not beholden to a foreign entity if they are within reach of the presidency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Rothchild | 9,641 Editorials Team · Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, m308gunner said: Why fault someone who, at the very least in their own minds, felt smeared and persecuted from the start before they even stepped into the office? The media and Democrats have been shrieking for over 2 years about the man. If anything it looks like Trump has acted with inhuman restraint given the circumstances. Grab. 'em. By. The. Pussy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulpa | 3,569 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 15 minutes ago, m308gunner said: Why fault someone who, at the very least in their own minds, felt smeared and persecuted from the start before they even stepped into the office? The media and Democrats have been shrieking for over 2 years about the man. If anything it looks like Trump has acted with inhuman restraint given the circumstances. Because he withheld promised aid from an ally (that's been documented as being true) in return for personal political favors. Again, he didn't want an investigation. He wanted the announcement of an investigation, so it would play to his base and damage his opponent. If you can't see something wrong in that ... well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWunderful | 2,927 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 21 minutes ago, m308gunner said: I'd have to be blind and deaf to not agree that he does in fact insult people. No convincing required. I can't say I could wholly agree that he "encourages animosity" in the same way the Democrats have been encouraging it, such as Maxine Waters encouraging people to confront cabinet members in public (no matter the rationale). Ukrain'es foreign minister Vadym Prystaiko and President Zelensky have been quoted by multiple non-Trump sources that they did not feel pressured. All the sources I have read are apparently engaged in mind reading as they all assume he does actually feel pressured, but just won't say it. Their position is that Zelensky felt pressured at the time, but since the situation has gotten so much attention I'm sure they feel pressured now to take the path of least resistance, thus muddying the waters. See my previous comment on Trump's directional honesty vs. his factual honesty. I don't think you'll find anyone acting in good faith that would say they think Trump is a boyscout who only tells the truth. In my opinion, it doesnt even matter if they felt pressured or not. Who cares? He still did what he did. Tried to extort a country to benefit himSelf politically. And you are right about Waters. Nothing like that should be part of politics. Still pretty minor compared to Trump “rallies”. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RegularGuyGamer | 2,021 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 On 12/19/2019 at 4:51 PM, Lincoln said: Also Reddit. So, lots of reputable sources, with many insightful comments from the crowd to provide context. Nah Reddit is a cesspool of little kids pretending to be adults. It's really bad. I literally saw a comment about how the Chinese ppl aren't to blame for horrible things the government is doing. That's literally saying Nazi's weren't to blame for the hulacust. Seriously, mental gymnastics like that happen every day by children trying to sound grown. I hear them every day say stupid shit to make them seem insightful and different. Which is Reddit in a nutshell. A place where teens can say cool, edgy shit and get upvoted by ppl who fall for their facade. /end Reddit rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWunderful | 2,927 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 28 minutes ago, m308gunner said: Why fault someone who, at the very least in their own minds, felt smeared and persecuted from the start before they even stepped into the office? The media and Democrats have been shrieking for over 2 years about the man. If anything it looks like Trump has acted with inhuman restraint given the circumstances. Fox news is media. They sure aint shrieking about Trump When people use the term “media” like its some some secret cabal it sounds so silly. (No offense to you, just an observation/ opinion) I guess its an easy scapegoat that is impossible to disprove or something. Can you really say Trump is acting with Restraint? Politics is tough, but its obvious how he feels about any negative coverage. Plenty of other presidents dealt with animosity from the other side with Class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m308gunner | 352 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 19 hours ago, Lincoln said: Where are you getting this about the whistle blower? Afaik they haven't been outed yet. That's actually one of the major concerns for the Senate trial, that the Republicans would call that person to testify and blow their protection just out of spite. At this point their tip has been corroborated by like 17 people. There's nothing they can say now that justifies exposing them. And its pretty disengenuous to assume their motivation is strictly due to associating with the Dems (which, again, source?) rather than having actual concern over law breaking or abuse of power. And what are you going on about with the closed hearings? Again afaik they were run by the book and both sides had opportunity to do whatever they needed. The only complaints I've heard were from Republicans who were outright lying. Oh and the group that threw a fit and stormed a session they had no clearance for. The identity of the whistleblower had already been reported, along with his reported ties to the Democratic party and Schiff, but since any mention of the name (Eric Charmelo?) has been wiped from Google I can't say for sure anymore. Whomever it was it didn't take long before the Democrats suddenly started claiming that the whistleblower laws protected the identity of the individual. What those laws actually do is protect that person's job, not their anonymity. The Democrats have been acting to remove a duly elected president since before his inauguration, so let's not pretend they are of pure motive either. And since no law breaking was included in the articles of impeachment, nor will likely be brought up in any subsequent trial, that line of attack can be laid to rest. Abuse of power is also extremely suspect, as I've mentioned before. The closed hearings were being run by whose book? When all the leaks coming from the hearings are only going one way (Trump is guilty!) one has to have at least an iota of suspicion, especially when they are not letting the witnesses be cross examined and heard by a broader audience. It's just bad optics. Yeah, that troupe that stormed the gates was pretty much pure theater, but wasn't it fun to watch? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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