NES games difficulty compared to modern standards

[jonebone | 1,307]

From a marketing perspective, you want your game to appeal to as many as people as possible so you can maximize sales.  You do that with difficulty levels and that's how games are nowadays.  Usually standard is much easier and you can quickly ramp it up (or have achievements) for those who want to master a game and endure the punishment.

It's spoiled me as well, I don't enjoy playing games where you're forced to die so you can learn progression.  I can deal with a few restarts but when there's too many of them I just move on.  There are so many good games I haven't experienced that I don't wish to put in the effort to master any.

Also, not sure if this has been talked about, but what about games that were partially dependent on strategy guides?  Stuff like RPGs or "secrets" or speedrunning for cheats (like Goldeneye).  Back then you had to buy a guide or figure it out on your own, now you can find anything online or watch a video on youtube.  You don't have to grind those things out alone anymore.

[Sumez | 2,951]

46 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Holy Diver I got as a teen, loved it. Never made it to the end, but about 3/4 of the way. This never really bothered me, oddly enough, and definitely wouldn't call it jank.

Holy Diver is absolutely jank. The fact that the game won't register a jump on the same frame as you push right is just an inexusable oversight.

I love the game, too.

[T-Pac | 7,544]

7 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

There are ridiculously easy games from every era and there are balls-hard games from every era, but I do think there has been a fundamental paradigm shift from the 80's to now on what video games are and were all about, in general terms.  On the front of one of my NES Control Deck boxes it says: The most challenging video game system ever developed.  I mean, it was an actual selling point.  You played games to try and beat them, and not everybody could and not everybody would.

Here in the 2020's, in contrast, video games are by and large about the experience now: the story, the atmosphere, the depth of the world, etc.  In the 80's it was about teenage boys trying to accomplish ridiculously difficult tasks; now it's about everyone and their Mom's just enjoying themselves and escaping their real lives for a while, hopping and bopping around just for funsies...

This pretty much sums up my thoughts, too.

When people are put-off by the difficulty of many NES games, I think a lot of it stems from a discrepancy of expectation. If all you've ever played is casual, open-world stuff - that's what your expectation of a "video game" is, and you'll approach anything labeled "video game" with that frame of reference. So something like a challenging, linear 8-bit title will be jarring. Not because it's bad, and not because you can't learn to like it - but because you were primed for something completely different.

[T-Pac]

[Andy_Bogomil | 815]

I think 'jank' controls, lack of saves/lives, and cryptic game design made NES games tougher overall, especially before the internet. Some games for NES you can spend 20-30 min getting to a spot and waste all your lives on a tough jump/boss in less than 30 seconds just to potentially get back there and do it again... you just don't see that much after NES. Those game designs also lead to more frustration and worse play, rather than starting a a tough spot with infinite tries.

I fully agree that games are more about the experience now. A general trend as graphics improved to focus more on story telling, exploring, and immersion for the player and less on actual challenge.

[Gentlegamer | 174]

Elden Ring is a modern game. The optional boss Malenia is one of the hardest in any video game, all time.

I beat her using "cheese tactics" on my solo game, now I'm trying to learn "legit" beat her by helping other players online.

Malenia can effortlessly body three players, over and over and over again.

Elden Ring (and the Souls games) are not indicative of the modern standard, of course, which is large part of what makes them stand out.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Gentlegamer

[Gloves | 11,778]

13 minutes ago, Gentlegamer said:

Elden Ring is a modern game. The optional boss Malenia is one of the hardest in any video game, all time.

Meeeehhhhhhh... She's hard, but not that hard.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,528]

13 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Meeeehhhhhhh... She's hard, but not that hard.

 

[Gloves | 11,778]

Just now, Reed Rothchild said:

 

I'm something of an Elden SoulsBorne player, myself.

[Tulpa | 3,497]

That was the most laid back "Git Gud, Scrub!" I've ever seen.  

[Sumez | 2,951]

I'd say there are definitely harder FromSoft bosses. Hell I'd say Elden Ring has harder bosses. But she's no walk in the park! 

[Gentlegamer | 174]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

Meeeehhhhhhh... She's hard, but not that hard.

We found "Let Me Solo Her"'s vgsage acct

[wongojack | 214]

I largely think the claim that NES games are hard is overblown as well.  What NES games really take is not some amazing reflexes, but an adult's brain who can analyze what to do differently to succeed.  Mix that with some patience to retry after failure and you'll get there.  When I play a game from the NES era now, I see myself in the mind of the programmer, but as a kid, I could never do that.  The games seemed daunting and impossible.  A victory was rare and cherished.

Most people who approach games (of any era) just don't have the mindset to analyze and improve.  This site and people who have been playing games for a lifetime are an anomaly (and we know it).  The industry changed from those days and now they suck in the tweens without that need to analyze, retry, and improve.  It's the way of things.  You need some memorable experience to teach you that the hard way is worth it.  Nobody will ever stick with it voluntarily.

[mbd39 | 2,020]

Some of the greatest Nintendo Tetris players in the world are young teens. It's memes and Youtube videos that get them into playing tough games.

 

 

[wongojack | 214]

1 hour ago, mbd39 said:

Some of the greatest Nintendo Tetris players in the world are young teens. It's memes and Youtube videos that get them into playing tough games.

 

 

There's always a remnant

[CMR | 520]

In the 80's and 90's, reviewers would complain about games being too easy.

[cj_robot | 542]

14 hours ago, CMR said:

In the 80's and 90's, reviewers would complain about games being too easy.

I just happened to recently come across this Ninja Gaiden III review from EGM back in the day:

"What has to be the best of the Gaiden series, The Ancient Ship of Doom makes up for both the lack of difficulty and awkward controls that kept previous Gaiden games from being full tens!"

[Tanooki | 4,933]

Hey no dumping on Holy Diver, I used a rom rarely over the last 2 decades on that, but I got a NES retrobit cart second hand early this year and it's hard, but I mean really, it's fair.  I got a few stages in until it got ugly, which is more than I can say I did with Castlevania back in the day which many love to compare it to.  I think if I applied even 1/4 of the struggles of that old NES game to that Famicom title I'd kick its ass in far less time.  It's not jank, stiff works, picky definitely, but it's not a broken game.

 

I am with jonebone, working 60hours~ roughly now, I've got a low bullshit threshold so I do not waste a lot of time on self destructive time wasting crap when it comes to games.  I want to get in, have fun, maybe get somewhere to save it or not, then get out, or if short...finish it.  I'm over large load screens, memory cards, dramatics.  He was right about the games made for guides, that stood for like 15-20 years easily and only rotted out because YT killed the printed guide.  I still go for the guide on games I have, why.... not cheating per say, time savings.  I don't want to get lost and piss added hours in a dungeon or mountain side, show me where to go MAP PLZ THX!

These days I'm in the dawning hours of selling my gamecube stuff off, largely stuff I bought at retail, I'm settling on carts, they're more stable and you can get in and out faster.  Famicom is largely doing it too since you can go for a high score and go until you're wasted and that works.  If I get stuck, YT or gamefaqs is there, works for me.  I don't rush there, and much of those don't even need it, NES, SFC, SNES, Gen, GB to GBA and GG either so it's all good.

I argue they're not harder, I argue we got spoiled, lazy, crunched for time, and less patience for bs than a kid has.

[mbd39 | 2,020]

34 minutes ago, cj_robot said:

I just happened to recently come across this Ninja Gaiden III review from EGM back in the day:

"What has to be the best of the Gaiden series, The Ancient Ship of Doom makes up for both the lack of difficulty and awkward controls that kept previous Gaiden games from being full tens!"

Maybe they thought that NG2 was too easy. Nobody would say that about the first one!

 

[Sumez | 2,951]

Aren't NG1 and 2 about equal in difficulty? 

Maybe they were just basing their statement on the infinite continues, which is a little unfair if so. 

[AirVillain | 489]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:36 PM, Brickman said:

I don’t have anything additional to say about NES games that hasn’t already been said above.

However I will say that by making modern games too easy most kids aren’t very good at games.

I had my nephew, who is 10, play SMB3 and DKC and he couldn’t even pass the first level of either. Lost about 15 lives on each and just gave up. He got frustrated that it was too hard. 

That's too old!

Gotta get get them started much earlier than that.

https://medium.com/message/playing-with-my-son-e5226ff0a7c3

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:15 PM, Sumez said:

Aren't NG1 and 2 about equal in difficulty? 

Maybe they were just basing their statement on the infinite continues, which is a little unfair if so. 

I don't know, I think infinite continues is a determining factor in discussing  the measure of a game's difficulty.  I beat both NG 1 and 2 in my childhood the first time I ever played them because of that attribute, whereas I had to play Battletoads for weeks straight as an adult until I had mastered each level to the degree needed to finally beat the game.  So it's more than fair to take infinite continues into account when rating a game's difficulty, in my estimation.

[Estil | 1,265]

On 12/17/2023 at 11:41 AM, Tulpa said:

Oh, I have sigs turned off, so I have no idea what your sig was saying.

The Nintendo Seal of Quality one sounds better than what you described, though, so change it.

And what are you prepared to offer in exchange for this request?  

[Tulpa | 3,497]

15 minutes ago, Estil said:

And what are you prepared to offer in exchange for this request?  

 

[Brickman | 3,986]

2 hours ago, AirVillain said:

That's too old!

Gotta get get them started much earlier than that.

https://medium.com/message/playing-with-my-son-e5226ff0a7c3

Good read. I’ve read another article where a dad broke it down by age range. So like 5-6 they only played Atari, 6-7 NES etc. 

I think if I ever had a kid I’d do the same thing. It’s how I grew up loving classic film, my parents and grandparents would put on a lot of B&W films.

[Estil | 1,265]

26 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I don't run a charity.  Request denied.