NES games difficulty compared to modern standards

[Sumez | 2,951]

5 hours ago, G-type said:

I also think that it was an economic decision. there was a belief that a hard game would be perceived as having more value because you weren’t able to finish it as quickly.

And that would be true as well. A game you can rush through in 20 minutes the first time you play it doesn't have a lot of staying power. 

[Khromak | 768]

2 hours ago, Brickman said:

I had my nephew, who is 10, play SMB3 and DKC and he couldn’t even pass the first level of either. Lost about 15 lives on each and just gave up. He got frustrated that it was too hard. 

I've had the same experience with nieces/kids who've wanted to try out some of the old games and seen the same thing. They die a few times and don't take the steps to try to figure out why or how to improve, they just say it's too hard and give up.

I think it's partly to blame on the easier difficulty with a lot of newer games, but also the fact that there are SO MANY of them. If a game is too hard, they just return to the Roblox lobby and pick a game that's easier. Or they go back to the app store and download another game. Or they play a different Minecraft mode that is easier. This could go on forever but you get the point.

[NostalgicMachine | 235]

Data storage was extremely limited = less game time = make the game take longer to complete, especially once rentals became a thing.

IIRC, The Lion King on SNES and Genesis has that infamously-difficult level 2 due precisely to them not wanting kids to beat the game on rental, and never purchase.

[JamesRobot | 5,800]

2 hours ago, Brickman said:

However I will say that by making modern games too easy most kids aren’t very good at games.

I had my nephew, who is 10, play SMB3 and DKC and he couldn’t even pass the first level of either. Lost about 15 lives on each and just gave up. He got frustrated that it was too hard. 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,526]

1 hour ago, cartman said:

I don't think it's refined. Just a lot easier. Plenty of lives, checkpoints and and unlimited continues so that you'll finish the game even if you sloppied it through.

Beating games is now easier.  Except for when it isn't.  The End is Nigh comes to mind.

Completing them is now much, much harder.

Reverse the first word in each sentence if you're @Sumez

[Brickman | 3,986]

4 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Beating games is now easier.  Except for when it isn't.  The End is Nigh comes to mind.

Completing them is now much, much harder.

Reverse the first word in each sentence if you're @Sumez

There are still hard games out there but they are mainly aimed at our generation. You'd be hard pressed to find a kid that says they want The End is Nigh, Cuphead, Darkest Dungeon and Celeste for Christmas 

The majority want Minecraft, Fortnight or something that guides them to an easy win like Super Mario RPG easy mode (it was already an easy game!).

[Reed Rothchild | 9,526]

2 minutes ago, Brickman said:

There are still hard games out there but they are mainly aimed at our generation. You'd be hard pressed to find a kid that says they want The End is Nigh, Cuphead, Darkest Dungeon and Celeste for Christmas 

The majority want Minecraft, Fortnight or something that guides them to an easy win like Super Mario RPG easy mode (it was already an easy game!).

I'm training my boys with Jamestown.  We'll get to Ikaruga and the Cave games soon enough 

[cartman | 195]

3 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Beating games is now easier.  Except for when it isn't.  The End is Nigh comes to mind.

Completing them is now much, much harder.

Reverse the first word in each sentence if you're @Sumez

I haven't played that one. But all the retro-esque/indie games that i did play there was no question whether i'll beat them but rather how soon. I could just continue right there if the (many) lives ran out.

Completing as in what? If you mean 100% by finding every trinket that's more like a bonus than the actual game. And no damage runs and whatnot might be impressive but that's even less the game. Even if there's a trophy that's still just exercising skills beyond what is needed.

 

[Brickman | 3,986]

5 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I'm training my boys with Jamestown.  We'll get to Ikaruga and the Cave games soon enough 

That's awesome. At least some people are putting in the work to get the next generation of gamers into some Cave games.

[fox | 1,667]

7 hours ago, mbd39 said:

Not to mention the concern that kids would beat the game in a weekend rental rather than buy it. 

 

This sounds like something an out of touch boomer in marketing would say.  Someone with no interest in actually making a quality game.

I’d say the Mega Man games have some rough parts but are pretty fair.  You know how many times I rented Mega Man 2?  The clerk even told me, “You know you rented this 3 times, you must really like this game.”

After all those rentals I asked for Mega Man 2 for my birthday, but got Mega Man 3 instead, cause that was the newer one.  And I replayed and beat that one countless times.  Would I have asked for it without those great rental experiences?

Compare that with something like The Lion King, a great looking game based on the biggest movie of the year, should be a slam dunk.  But overly frustrated rental due to inflated difficulty made it just not that fun to play and one I never ended up owning.

[mbd39 | 2,020]

1 hour ago, fox said:

This sounds like something an out of touch boomer in marketing would say.  Someone with no interest in actually making a quality game.

I’d say the Mega Man games have some rough parts but are pretty fair.  You know how many times I rented Mega Man 2?  The clerk even told me, “You know you rented this 3 times, you must really like this game.”

After all those rentals I asked for Mega Man 2 for my birthday, but got Mega Man 3 instead, cause that was the newer one.  And I replayed and beat that one countless times.  Would I have asked for it without those great rental experiences?

Compare that with something like The Lion King, a great looking game based on the biggest movie of the year, should be a slam dunk.  But overly frustrated rental due to inflated difficulty made it just not that fun to play and one I never ended up owning.

Bayou Billy would be much better regarded had Konami kept the US difficulty closer to the Japanese version. Especially the driving stages!

[PII | 1,885]

14 hours ago, Sumez said:

some that are borderline impossible.

Genuinely curious, which NES games would you categorize this way?

[Khromak | 768]

Q*Bert

[mbd39 | 2,020]

6 minutes ago, Khromak said:

Q*Bert

That, Star Force and Ikari Warriors without the continue code.

 

[Tanooki | 4,933]

2 hours ago, mbd39 said:

Bayou Billy would be much better regarded had Konami kept the US difficulty closer to the Japanese version. Especially the driving stages!

Mad City, bought that about a month ago and is so much more enjoyable.  That was Konami's probably most infamous middle finger to the renters.  You make your character hit people so that impacts do 4x less damage than the FC title, and in turn allow the enemies to do 2x the damage to your life bar so you die off really fast. Combine the crap they pulled with the actually should be fun driving stages and the game is just awful.

Castlevania III also got screwed with bad, very badly which is a shame.  Grant made into a joke with a tiny dagger while the oriignal the butter knife thrown out was your weapon, and all four characters take the same damage not far more for support and even more in general on the belmont.  Konami really had it out, just like a few others such as the bs they pulled with Ninja Gaiden games.

 

NES games weren't really more difficult, except those largely spiked to mess with the rental market.  Not across the board, some are just hard, like Ghosts n Goblins by design, and some due to bad design like the vertical stages with Silver Surfer.

[mbd39 | 2,020]

5 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Mad City, bought that about a month ago and is so much more enjoyable.  That was Konami's probably most infamous middle finger to the renters.  You make your character hit people so that impacts do 4x less damage than the FC title, and in turn allow the enemies to do 2x the damage to your life bar so you die off really fast. Combine the crap they pulled with the actually should be fun driving stages and the game is just awful.

 

I must be crazy because I actually prefer Bayou Billy over all. The earlier stages feel more fleshed out and the high difficulty gives a real feeling of being the underdog taking on a bunch of tough enemies.

But Konami did go overboard increasing the difficulty of the driving stages. All those sharp turns kill my hands.

 

 

[Tanooki | 4,933]

Fair enough, but this isn't some thing with age.  I tried it back as far as 1995 and didn't like it then either as it felt like I was punching with bubble wrap gloves while being hit in the head with a cartoon glove loaded with horse shoes and bricks when the enemy made contact.  It aggravated me back then, still does now, so that's why I prefer it.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

There are ridiculously easy games from every era and there are balls-hard games from every era, but I do think there has been a fundamental paradigm shift from the 80's to now on what video games are and were all about, in general terms.  On the front of one of my NES Control Deck boxes it says: The most challenging video game system ever developed.  I mean, it was an actual selling point.  You played games to try and beat them, and not everybody could and not everybody would.

Here in the 2020's, in contrast, video games are by and large about the experience now: the story, the atmosphere, the depth of the world, etc.  In the 80's it was about teenage boys trying to accomplish ridiculously difficult tasks; now it's about everyone and their Mom's just enjoying themselves and escaping their real lives for a while, hopping and bopping around just for funsies...

[Sumez | 2,951]

8 hours ago, fox said:

This sounds like something an out of touch boomer in marketing would say.  Someone with no interest in actually making a quality game.

Anecdotal evidence, but so is yours I guess - I definitely skipped over acquiring several games due to having beat them in a single rental period, and not feeling I'd get much out of owning them. Classics like Super Mario World and Donkey Kong Country come to mind.
New SNES games were extremely expensive, and it was absolutely a factor

[Sumez | 2,951]

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

You played games to try and beat them, and not everybody could and not everybody would.

Or "complete" them if you're @Reed Rothchild

[Sumez | 2,951]

5 hours ago, PII said:

19 hours ago, Sumez said:

some that are borderline impossible.

Genuinely curious, which NES games would you categorize this way?

This is a bit of shaky grounds for claims, because the fact that a game feels really bad to play is likely to make me give up faster than a game that remains enjoyable while tough.

But some that stood out to me were Frankenstein, Holy Diver, Sword Master, Wing of Madoola, and Fire Bam. I think there are probably many better (worse) examples out there though.

I'll admit I tend to skip over games with a shitty reputation, and my patience for 8-bit jank is quite high, so my first hand experience with the worst of those kinds of games isn't too strong.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

21 hours ago, Rhuno said:

Modern games can be challenging, but most feature a lot of quality of life improvements. Namely, frequent saves and regenerating health. It's one thing to spend 30 minutes or an hour on a game only to die and start all over, but spending several hours? I don't think many people would put up with that.

Most NES games don't last several hours, aside from something like Super Mario Bros 3, which is more than generous on items and 1-ups; so back in the old days, people didn't put up with that either, we were just better gamers

[fcgamer | 4,723]

15 hours ago, Brickman said:

I don’t have anything additional to say about NES games that hasn’t already been said above.

However I will say that by making modern games too easy most kids aren’t very good at games.

I had my nephew, who is 10, play SMB3 and DKC and he couldn’t even pass the first level of either. Lost about 15 lives on each and just gave up. He got frustrated that it was too hard. 

That's terrible.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

7 hours ago, Khromak said:

Q*Bert

That's because we don't have a proper controller, was talking with a friend about this a few months back 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

3 hours ago, Sumez said:

But some that stood out to me were Frankenstein, Holy Diver, Sword Master, Wing of Madoola, and Fire Bam. I think there are probably many better (worse) examples out there though.

Holy Diver I got as a teen, loved it. Never made it to the end, but about 3/4 of the way. This never really bothered me, oddly enough, and definitely wouldn't call it jank.