Juneteenth is a US holiday, what you are doing?

[Tulpa | 3,534]

1 minute ago, Tanooki said:

If you don't want history to repeat, then teach it in a history course, history videos and texts on and offline, and so on.  Keep it in perspective, fresh, and educated upon from school forward.
 

3 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/19/texas-book-bans/
 

Sounds like texas is off to a great start!

Huh, maybe a national holiday would keep it in the public mind so it would be taught in schools. Maybe sometime in June? the 19th sounds good.

[FireHazard51 | 2,052]

15 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/19/texas-book-bans/
 

Sounds like texas is off to a great start!

40% of books being ban involve protagonist who are non-white.  Clearly we over being a racist country since the percentage is less than 50.  Texas better raise those numbers or they will be risk being called woke,

[Hammerfestus | 3,882]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

I don't care for donuts much or powdered sugar on anything really but I get it, lame miss the mark racism joke.

I do know what the holiday is meant to be could be also called emancipation day which sounds nicer.

It's not the only federal holiday I don't really care about.  And no I don't have an issue with nor do I dismiss veterans and memorial day either, same with MLK I get that entirely.

As I said I knew it wouldn't be a popular comment.  I do find it amusing seeing the reactions to it assuming a whole lot.

I have no good way to word it without setting someone off, but I'm just over specialized days and months over history, issues, and/or grievances of the past.  Move on, not backwards or staying in place.  Tired of the whole this or that forme and not for three stuff.  You want equality, act equal, don't just preach it and want more.

 

[fcgamer | 4,753]

47 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

My money was one page before white people start telling us how they are REALLY the ones being discriminated against. 

Well it sure felt like discrimination last week when my white friend and I got yelled at in a coffee shop for talking, yet the guy talking on his phone, the older couple loudly chatting in the corner, gamer guy singing with his headphones, etc all didn't get told off. Odd thing was they were all local people, and we were the two outsiders. Oh well.

Getting things back on topic, I never heard of this holiday until this post. I do think I'd have preferred another name though; Emancipation Day, for example, was mentioned and it just sounds a lot nicer to my ears anyways, whereas Juneteenth just sounds made up, even though it isn't. Even Jubilee Day has a nicer ring to it, again in my opinion.

On a different note, the amount of generalizations being made in this thread is frightening. I think it's safe to say that no one here knows anyone else's backstory, so there's just no need for it. 

[fcgamer | 4,753]

57 minutes ago, Scrobins said:

To be fair, Tanooki is some white guy who’s never had security eyeball him while he’s gone shopping, or had to fear for his life whenever he’s been pulled over by the police. He’s never known people staring at him in his neighborhood with glares that communicated that he didn’t belong. He never had someone assume he was dumb or a criminal just from looking at him.

I've experienced and encountered a lot of this over the past decade or so of my life. The conversation has been brought up before, and I know what I experience "doesn't count" since I chose to move to a foreign country as opposed to being born someplace, but it's definitely still racism at play (I am a minority where I live, believe it or not). If I had children and they grew up here and underwent such discrimination, would that "count", as they'd be discriminated against in the country that is their home? 

 

[Tabonga | 2,337]

1 hour ago, Tulpa said:

You do know the phrase, "Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it", right?

Sorry if it brings up uncomfortable reminders that we used to be shit human beings, but that's not moving backwards. That's making sure it doesn't happen again.

I always find it supremely ironic that the use of that phrase almost invariably itself involves a misquote from the original (someone didn't study it perhaps??) The original (as far as anyone has determined) is from George Santayana's 1905 work "A Life of Reason".  It is as follows: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".   A seemingly minor nuance, like all the devils in details it does change the meaning signifigantly  

The other thing I often see with the use of that phrase is that only certain aspects of whatever history are  taken into account - disregarding anything that doesn't   suit the quoter's need,

Case in point - the origins of the trianglular trade began in 1444 when Portugese merchants transported 225 people to be sold  in the Caribbean .  They didn't host a tupperware party and kidnap these people - they bought them with trade goods (including firearms which empowered the native source slavers to kidnap more of their neighbors and further enrich themselves) - which was another leg of the trade.  Eventually an estimated 10 million people were transported under horrendous conditions to the New World.  Despite some latter day implications only a portion of those went to what would become the English North American Colonies.*  Most were sent to the various European Caribbean colonies where they met a much harsher fate than those that wound up in North America did (not to say it was a bed of roses there but it was different than the Caribbean.) Spain in particular seems to get a free pass on the whole slavery issue for some reason.  They actually didn't end slavery in their colonies until 1896.  A little late joining the party.

The other untold part of the story is the Islamic slave trade - which, since it was based on land routes, extracted far more people out of Africa than the West did.  They were also more brutal about it in that most male captives were castrated in horrible conditions with a likely survival rate of 10% before being sent to the interior areas of Islam.  (The Barbary States also enslaved  large numbers of Europeans - with raids occurring as far north in Ireland and Iceland as late as 1631.) 

*The first ship of African captives show up in Jamestown in 1619 - pretty much unannounced since I don't believe mail order catalogs were in vogue yet.  (Some slaves were in Spanish Florida by then - but that was, er, Spanish at the time.) Since the Jamestown compact didn't mention slavery the early shiploads were treated as indentured servants (who no matter what color had a hard life) - which were mentioned in the compact.  Which led to the interesting case of Anthony Johnson (who arrived as "Antonio").  He fulfilled his indenture service and became a modestly successful farmer who in turn used 5  indentured servants.  One of them (who happened to be black) kept running away and Anthony Johnson sued to enslave him since he wandered off repeatedly.  It was successful and is the second mention of slavery in the southern colonies' legal records. (There was some slavery going on in Massachusetts in that era but it was different in some aspects than the southern colonies.)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Tabonga

[Hammerfestus | 3,882]

10 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I've experienced and encountered a lot of this over the past decade or so of my life. The conversation has been brought up before, and I know what I experience "doesn't count" since I chose to move to a foreign country as opposed to being born someplace, but it's definitely still racism at play (I am a minority where I live, believe it or not). If I had children and they grew up here and underwent such discrimination, would that "count", as they'd be discriminated against in the country that is their home? 

 

[fcgamer | 4,753]

7 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

Discrimination shouldn't be viewed as a contest or competition, and we shouldn't be disregarding or dismissing any of it.

Regarding police, it is very scary if I get stopped, corrupt system, language barrier, cultural barrier, less rights as I'm not a citizen. Hopefully my final moments won't end up as a video posted on here some day, but who knows. 

[Tulpa | 3,534]

Man, and I thought Tanooki's "Juneteenth is on par with National Poop Day" post was bad.

[Link | 2,727]

2 hours ago, Tanooki said:

grievances of the past. 

You want equality, act equal, don't just preach it and want more.

You say people are assuming a lot, but you clearly have idea how stuff like this comes off.

[spacepup | 2,412]

I wasn't really familiar with Juneteenth just a few years ago, but I am glad that was made a federal holiday, that it is gaining momentum, and I hope that more states fall in line.  I think it represents such an important moment in our history, that it is absolutely worth respecting.  I say respecting and not celebrating because while I celebrate the important accomplishment of that day, we have SOOO much more to do in this area.  That was just one step in working toward equality, and we are not yet there.  It was a big and important step of course, but we still have lots of systemic and non-systemic racism in this country.  My hope is that the day would be a reminder for people to reflect on that.

I was at a museum just a couple years ago, that had an entire room dedicated to the very brutal, gruesome details, of 'life' aboard a slave ship, including graphic depictions of how people were stored on the ships, treated like a replaceable cargo commodity.  It was hard to see, but I'm glad it was there, and I'm glad I visited, because it just made it feel so much more real and awful.  And then I think about how it wasn't all THAT long ago, that things like this were happening.

Slavery and awful hate/racism against an entire group of people, isn't just something that happened long long ago in a faraway time and we are totally different now.  It wasn't that long ago, and while we've made great progress and great strides in some ways, the effects of our history are absolutely present today in the issues that black people and other minorities face in many many aspects of daily life.  

Comparing the holiday to doughnut day or cheeseburger today, is beyond disappointing and incredibly offensive, regardless of intent.  But rather than focus on a silly internet squabble or silly comments, I hope people take something much better with them thinking about the holiday and what it represents.

 

 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

Well it sure felt like discrimination last week when my white friend and I got yelled at in a coffee shop for talking, yet the guy talking on his phone, the older couple loudly chatting in the corner, gamer guy singing with his headphones, etc all didn't get told off. Odd thing was they were all local people, and we were the two outsiders. Oh well.

Getting things back on topic, I never heard of this holiday until this post. I do think I'd have preferred another name though; Emancipation Day, for example, was mentioned and it just sounds a lot nicer to my ears anyways, whereas Juneteenth just sounds made up, even though it isn't. Even Jubilee Day has a nicer ring to it, again in my opinion.

On a different note, the amount of generalizations being made in this thread is frightening. I think it's safe to say that no one here knows anyone else's backstory, so there's just no need for it. 

Called it!

 

 

 

[a3quit4s | 4,125]

12 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Called it!

 

 

 

I think he is saying that because he is an outsider in Taiwan which is discrimination. So with more clarification that makes more sense.
 

But there is no backstory that allows you to compare Juneteenth to National Donut Day that doesn’t make you look bad.  Probably just say you support the holiday, because if you don’t, the generalizations about you are 100% correct. There is exactly no gray area here. 

[Link | 2,727]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/07/three-tropes-white-victimhood/619463/

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

13 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

I think he is saying that because he is an outsider in Taiwan which is discrimination. So with more clarification that makes more sense.
 

But there is no backstory that allows you to compare Juneteenth to National Donut Day that doesn’t make you look bad.  Probably just say you support the holiday, because if you don’t, the generalizations about you are 100% correct. There is exactly no gray area here. 

I see your point, but dont even remotely care about his context. Been there, done that.
 

Mods are cool with it, so am I.   
 

This is a fucking thread about Juneteenth, and we have tanooki racist and insultingly comparing it to a wacky marketing based holiday like “donut day”. What a disgrace. 
 

Mods:

 

When people talk about casual racism and white privilege around here, lets remember that post. werent We were supposed to call it out?

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

6 minutes ago, Link said:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/07/three-tropes-white-victimhood/619463/

Awesome article, thanks. 
 

Hes in great company with Carlson, Kilmeade and Pat Robertson

[Brickman | 4,013]

Comparing a holiday that is trying to bring awareness to slavery to a cheeseburger day.

 

Never heard of it obviously not been from the US but it sounds like a great idea. The name sounds a bit weird to my ears though.

[Tulpa | 3,534]

2 minutes ago, Brickman said:

The name sounds a bit weird to my ears though.

I believe it was part of the African American vernacular. I think since the holiday celebrates their freedom, and they've used the name for well over a century, it should be what they want to call it. 

[Link | 2,727]

2 hours ago, Tabonga said:

A seemingly minor nuance, like all the devils in details it does change the meaning signifigantly  

While you're right that the quote is not always given in the original verbage, can you explain how the meaning is changed "drastically significantly"? Because I don't understand. Thanks.

 

The rest of this, uh, you also haven't led me to the water yet. There was slavery in other countries and some owners were not white, is what I'm picking up from your report. 

What relevance does that have that you're bringing into this discussion?

Edited June 20, 2023 by Link

[Tabonga | 2,337]

51 minutes ago, Link said:

While you're right that the quote is not always given in the original verbage, can you explain how the meaning is changed "drastically significantly"? Because I don't understand. Thanks.

 

The rest of this, uh, you also haven't led me to the water yet. There was slavery in other countries and some owners were not white, is what I'm picking up from your report. 

What relevance does that have that you're bringing into this discussion?

Saying what one doesn't know because they never learned it is far different than saying someone knew something but chose to forget/ignore it is a horse of a different color.  From what I remember (been a very long time since I read that particular book) Santayana's criticism was more aimed at the influential of the time who were by and large well educated yet usually (then as now) ran things for their own ends and screw the rest of the population.

You are overly complicating things - the main point is that one can't understand slavery in the US in a vaccuum without understanding  what was going on in the world at the time.  Like it or not, the roots fo the triangular trade start with native tribes in Africa.  (Remember that kente cloth?  That originated in Ghana which by no coincidence is where the slave trade started - the money made from slaves allowed the lucky natives who got to stay the wherewithal to import various goods such as European textiles.   It is much too simplistic to just say "white devils bad".  Who is more to blame - the drug dealer or those who buy the drugs?

By mentioning Anthony Johnson I was highlighting the idea that people using the whole remember the past thing ignore what doesn't fit their narrative (on any subject).  There were also black slave owners in Louisiana - namely because of their complicated nomenclature regarding children of mixed relationships*  which they inherited from the French occupation of the area. (Oddly enough the US gaining control of that area traces back to slavery in a somwhat obtuse fashion.)  

Another overlooked example is the case of Stand Watie - the last Confederate general to surrender.  He was a slave owning Cherokee who organized a unit of soldiers for the Confederacy (there were pro Union Cherokee forces also) - which led to the very bizarre occurrence of Confederate soldiers scalping Union ones in a few battles on the Western theater of the war.  

I bring this up mostly because the more one understands about what was going on the less likely one is to fall for simplistic thoughts that are just that.  And surely an accurate history of slavery is germane to the topic is it not?

---------------------

*This is an intersting book (based on a real case) that delves into some of the intricacies of Louisiana law vis a vis slavery.  Pretty interesting if one's mind runs to such things.

.

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Tabonga

[Strange | 1,700]

Edit:

Never mind - not worth it. This thread is a shitshow. Crazy we can’t have anything nice in 2023 and that universally accepted things like “slavery is bad” brings out so many “but” or “well…” statements nowadays.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Strange

[Tabonga | 2,337]

3 minutes ago, Strange said:

Man it’s crazy the lengths that people go to just to try and dance around having to say outright that slavery and racism are bad. And this comment isn’t directed at any one person in this thread.

We could put a poll up and see who thinks racism is not bad.  And one to see who thinks slavery is not bad.  (The two are actually separate issues if one stops to think about it. Just saying.)

[Scrobins | 1,727]

3 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

We could put a poll up and see who thinks racism is not bad.  And one to see who thinks slavery is not bad.  (The two are actually separate issues if one stops to think about it. Just saying.)

We get it, you style yourself an intellectual. How about we get back to the actual topic?

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

What a great idea, I’m sure it will be answered truthfully too

 

Jesus

 

sorry @FireHazard51 I do appreciate the sentiment behind the thread you were trying to convey. Before this gets locked, of course. 

[Tulpa | 3,534]

1 minute ago, MrWunderful said:

sorry @FireHazard51 I do appreciate the sentiment behind the thread you were trying to convey. Before this gets locked, of course. 

Or just delete any further posts that try to equate Juneteenth with...

*checking Tanooki's list*

Wear a Plunger on Your Head Day