Is Treasure (the dev) Overrated?

[Tanooki | 4,950]

Well the question was are they overrated, and that obviously a self important question, not global hive mind.  To me, they largely are since much of what they did just wasn't ever a thing for me (bullet hell) and other stuff just had janky weird issues (like Mischief Makers) and some I just really did enjoy like those 3 games.

[goldenpp72 | 1,235]

I don't think they are overrated, but it's important to contextualize their value. Treasure is not capable of making huge, meaty games and they never have been. Their strength was in brief arcade like experiences and they managed to stick the landing big time there, which makes them extremely important if you like those sorts of games (I do)

Just, you can't really compare Ikaruga to RE4 on the Gamecube and expect it to seem like a balanced comparison, they just knew how to hit very well in their weight class as it were. I miss them though, shame all they do is port stuff these days.

[Brickman | 4,012]

7 hours ago, OptOut said:

Well, do they make anything other than RPG's or Weeb nonsense? Because if NOT... 

If you don’t like that genre then fair enough but that doesn’t make them overrated. 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

44 minutes ago, Brickman said:

If you don’t like that genre then fair enough but that doesn’t make them overrated. 

It really can, though, as there can be games in a genre that are so good that they suck in even those folks who don't care for the genre.  I don't hate the genre that these guys tend to live in, but for me personally, none of what they've done as an established company (meaning the Konami stuff I did try doesn't count, and really shouldn't, since that company didn't exist and they weren't the only ones working on those games) piqued my interest enough to make me buy or sit down and play any of it.

They likely should be highly celebrated within that small circle that their games live in.  But all the people who shout from the rooftops about how great they are in general, which is many, are just flat-out wrong, because they just don't have mass appeal beyond their niche.  Which, to me, makes them overrated.  Probably spot on within their niche, but overrated overall.

You agreed with @goldenpp72 who basically said the same thing--comparing games of different genres against each other isn't going to give you a balanced comparison.  As such, wildly proclaiming the greatness of this team outside of the niche they've carved out makes them overrated beyond those borders since they lack mass, general appeal.

[guitarzombie | 927]

Alien Soldier is one of the coolest, interesting and bad ass games I've ever played.  Same it was only on the Sega Channel.

[goldenpp72 | 1,235]

6 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

It really can, though, as there can be games in a genre that are so good that they suck in even those folks who don't care for the genre.  I don't hate the genre that these guys tend to live in, but for me personally, none of what they've done as an established company (meaning the Konami stuff I did try doesn't count, and really shouldn't, since that company didn't exist and they weren't the only ones working on those games) piqued my interest enough to make me buy or sit down and play any of it.

They likely should be highly celebrated within that small circle that their games live in.  But all the people who shout from the rooftops about how great they are in general, which is many, are just flat-out wrong, because they just don't have mass appeal beyond their niche.  Which, to me, makes them overrated.  Probably spot on within their niche, but overrated overall.

You agreed with @goldenpp72 who basically said the same thing--comparing games of different genres against each other isn't going to give you a balanced comparison.  As such, wildly proclaiming the greatness of this team outside of the niche they've carved out makes them overrated beyond those borders since they lack mass, general appeal.

There is always a balance in terms of production versus quality, most companies would have a much easier time making a 30 minute game be astonishing, versus making a 20 hour game astonishing. Treasure I think just worked with what they had, they didn't have the staff or ability to play with the big boys and it's why they aren't really around anymore.

Atlus is kind of in the middle, they are rarely able to produce a legitimate, truly iconic series that hits significant appeal, but they can cater to their base well, and as such budget accordingly.  This is an area even Nintendo struggles with at times, Nintendo has a history of being afraid of budgeting too much money for some series because you can't put the genie back in the bottle as it were. If you make it 'too good' with too much money, you can't go back to the standard from before without angering the people you had on board, while running the risk of not expanding the base enough to offset that. We can see that recently with Kirby, Nintendo was always pretty keen on keeping them simple 2D games because Kirby always sold modestly, someone convinced them to finally let them budget for a big 3D production and now it's already the top selling game in the franchise, soon by a lot.

People like to pretend their isn't an association to money versus quality but, developers ain't free, so I think it can be easily argued with some degrees, and I would say Treasure, Atlus and Nintendo all hit a different degree of the concept, with Nintendo being the most efficient at putting out the best work, where as Capcom can put out rivaling products but tends to spend a lot more doing so, but Atlus isn't really capable of that, on purpose at this point.

I know this isn't entirely lined up with the discussion, but i felt like adding it onto the topic of Treasure

 

 

[OptOut | 8,892]

I mean, in a sense this entire thread just PROVES how overrated Treasure are!

Some wicked badass (me) makes an offhand comment about Treasure maybe not always living up to the hype, then BAM! The White Knights saddle up and it's time for a whole new THREAD about how special and awesome their beloved Treasure games are! 

You know, I WOULD be offended at the blatant character assassination attempted against me by certain contributors to this thread, if it wasn't for the fact their pitiable mewling tickles me so...

Keep riding the Treasure cock carousel guys, you're right they did SO well for a little widdy biddy baby waby studio, awe bless them they they put their big boy pants on all by themselves! 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,574]

48 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Some wicked badass

AHA

It always bothered me.  The British are usually so exceedingly polite and painfully well-mannered.  I mean have you seen Hugh Grant?

But this.  This explains everything.  Mother fucker was an imposter.  He's from Boston!

"Cock carousal"?  Dead giveaway!

[OptOut | 8,892]

1 minute ago, Reed Rothchild said:

AHA

It always bothered me.  The British are usually so exceedingly polite and painfully well-mannered.  I mean have you seen Hugh Grant?

But this.  This explains everything.  Mother fucker was an imposter.  He's from Boston!

"Cock carousal"?  Dead giveaway!

Perhaps. Or perhaps I just appreciate the fine work of Mark Wahlberg! 

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,017]

7 hours ago, OptOut said:

Perhaps. Or perhaps I just appreciate the fine work of Mark Wahlberg! 

God damnit I just read this post in a Boston accent now.

[Redmond | 152]

I'd still say Mischief Makers is great even as a one-and-done type game, but it really is more built around getting all the yellow gems and S-Ranks.  I also have no clue which games people are using as a comparison to place Mischief Makers as being meh or whatever.

 

[Tanooki | 4,950]

And that is its #1 failing, the yellow gems and ranks.  They demand and force borderline perfection and not as some good badge of honor.  The twits hid the entire ending of the game behind it.  They tick off like grains of sand in an hourglass so unless you commit some insane hours to the game, or you're one of the gifted class (as it's not an easy game, Treasure doesn't do easy) you'll never enjoy the finishing story (which if you check youtube, it's great.)

Second to that, for what it is, it's also not exactly the most precise title either, has a bit more jank to it than say gunstar hereos or even the later astro boy on gba.  It largely plays well but not smooth and coupled with the buy the ending mechanic it deserves any wrath people drop on the game.

I bought it when it was new, I've had it off and on over the decades since.  I'd even own it again now if I could scoop it for $20 something or less at this rate, but I'd go in knowing I'd not get the ending as I refuse to re-learn it or commit to that hell again for a second time.

[phart010 | 1,708]

I really loved like 90% of Treasures games. In my opinion everything they put out is gold. But just because I like something doesn’t mean it’s good. 

When I want to say something is good “objectively” (if that’s even possible) I always look at whether it had mass appeal. Mass appeal means large numbers of people liked it. The best way to determine whether something in video games had mass appeal is to look at the sales numbers. 

Looking at the numbers, Treasure games are a niche. That’s why Treasure is no more. They are not viable as a business. We love them because we are video game connoisseurs.

[Tanooki | 4,950]

And that's why despite people riding on optout there he is ultimately correct.  They are overrated.  Because people personally find them excellent or the best of the best in a defined period, the reality was they were niche and in a way a niche of a niche that burned hot, burned fast, and burned out.

You'd have to be stupid to not say they were great or at least good, but they commonly get overrated into this god tier status in some circles and well, pick a game or two sure, but really in the grand scheme they are not and that's why the company died.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,574]

Which team would you consider God tier?

Honest question.

If we're calling Treasure overrated because you consider them A tier instead of S tier, I'd be real curious to see what people do if I was to make one of these...

[Ankos | 462]

On 3/25/2023 at 8:45 AM, OptOut said:

Well, do they make anything other than RPG's or Weeb nonsense? Because if NOT... 

Didn't Atlus do Cosmo Tank? That one seems kinda cool

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

2 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Which team would you consider God tier?

Honest question.

If we're calling Treasure overrated because you consider them A tier instead of S tier, I'd be real curious to see what people do if I was to make one of these...

I have yet to see an example in this thread of a similar 3rd party dev that is ”better” from the same time frame. I would agree that Treasure “isn’t the best” but since they are “nowhere near the upper echelon” of devs, we should be overflowing with examples. 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,574]

6 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

I have yet to see an example in this thread of a similar 3rd party dev that is ”better” from the same time frame. I would agree that Treasure “isn’t the best” but since they are “nowhere near the upper echelon” of devs, we should be overflowing with examples. 

I may make a tier list tonight.  It'll be hard though, since there's 40+ years to work with, and a lot of different ways to define things.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

2 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I may make a tier list tonight.  It'll be hard though, since there's 40+ years to work with, and a lot of different ways to define things.

You might want to delineate between eras, 8/16/32 bit.
 

or not, you are the list expert 

[OptOut | 8,892]

7 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

I have yet to see an example in this thread of a similar 3rd party dev that is ”better” from the same time frame. I would agree that Treasure “isn’t the best” but since they are “nowhere near the upper echelon” of devs, we should be overflowing with examples. 

Well, you will notice when I made the comment I didn't specify all these parameters about the size of the Dev team, or the years of operation, I said they were overrated (not BAD).

I don't know what parameters specifically I aught to stick to to preserve the SANCTITY of our beloved special boy Treasure, but here are a few devs I PERSONALLY prefer the output of:

Rareware; Rockstar; Valve; ID software; Bungie; 3D Realms; Westwood Studios; Team 17.

If you wanna go back to the original, FULLY unqualified statement about the quality of Treasure games, I could literally just say Nintendo; Capcom; Konami; Namco; etc.etc. etc. But I can already hear the insufferable whining about how "UNFAIR" it would be to compare them to the REAL big boys, so I will play in your sandbox I guess. 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,574]

1 hour ago, OptOut said:

Rareware; Rockstar; Valve; ID software; Bungie; 3D Realms; Westwood Studios; Team 17.

Racist!

Got 'em 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,574]

Easy there killer.  Bungie made 2 of my 3 favorites games of all time 

[spacepup | 2,411]

It's hard for me to consider them 'overrated' because it's not a company I hear people talk about often.  Usually when I think something is "overrated" it is because it is talked about a LOT, with major hype.  I never hear anyone specifically talking about Treasure being some amazing developer / company, until recently honestly.

Contrast that to, say, Working Designs, which is a company that I've heard MANY people talk about / reminisce about quite lovingly, for the works they produced in their prime, many of which are quite beloved.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

9 hours ago, OptOut said:

Well, you will notice when I made the comment I didn't specify all these parameters about the size of the Dev team, or the years of operation, I said they were overrated (not BAD).

I don't know what parameters specifically I aught to stick to to preserve the SANCTITY of our beloved special boy Treasure, but here are a few devs I PERSONALLY prefer the output of:

Rareware; Rockstar; Valve; ID software; Bungie; 3D Realms; Westwood Studios; Team 17.

If you wanna go back to the original, FULLY unqualified statement about the quality of Treasure games, I could literally just say Nintendo; Capcom; Konami; Namco; etc.etc. etc. But I can already hear the insufferable whining about how "UNFAIR" it would be to compare them to the REAL big boys, so I will play in your sandbox I guess. 

Bro, 3d realms?   You must be smoking taiwanese opium. 
 

Team 17? Worms and lemmings are decent, but thats about it. Releasing 1000 worms games is a bad look. 
 

Ill give you rareware, but your argument is super weak. 
 

I now remember you are British, so ofcourse you like those terrible amiga type games

[Silent Hill | 276]

Bangai-O on Dreamcast is enough for me to never consider Treasure overrated....