Is Treasure (the dev) Overrated?

[OptOut | 8,892]

15 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Bro, 3d realms?   You must be smoking taiwanese opium. 
 

Team 17? Worms and lemmings are decent, but thats about it. Releasing 1000 worms games is a bad look. 
 

Ill give you rareware, but your argument is super weak. 
 

I now remember you are British, so ofcourse you like those terrible amiga type games

You will not allow me my own opinions?

Did you really have to start an entire thread just to pick me out for scrutiny?

How about you back the fuck off?

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

5 minutes ago, OptOut said:

You will not allow me my own opinions?

Did you really have to start an entire thread just to pick me out for scrutiny?

How about you back the fuck off?

Its a discussion forum bro, if you bring a hot take be prepared to defend it. 

Yes I did start a whole thread about it. Its a cool topic, and might spurn more discussion. We might even get a Reed list out of it.

If you don’t want your opinion discussed, keep it to yourself. If you want to post it in public, be prepared for scrutiny and counterpoints.
 

 

[OptOut | 8,892]

Just now, MrWunderful said:

Its a discussion forum bro, if you bring a hot take be prepared to defend it. 

Yes I did start a whole thread about it. Its a cool topic, and might spurn more discussion. We might even get a Reed list out of it.

If you don’t want your opinion discussed, keep it to yourself. If you want to post it in public, be prepared for scrutiny and counterpoints.
 

 

Well, I've said my peace and you haven't changed my mind on anything.

Actually, the more I think about it the LESS impressive Treasure's output appears to be in the grand scheme of things.

I've heard your counterpoints and I don't agree with you, and I'm not keen on involving myself too much more in this discussion, if you will grant me that dignity.

[G-type | 2,534]

I played Mischief Makers for Survivor and didn't really enjoy it. I own Gunstar Heroes which is typically held up as their best game and it's technically impressive, kind of neat and wacky, but doesn't really hold my interest in the long run.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

4 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Well, I've said my peace and you haven't changed my mind on anything.

Actually, the more I think about it the LESS impressive Treasure's output appears to be in the grand scheme of things.

I've heard your counterpoints and I don't agree with you, and I'm not keen on involving myself too much more in this discussion, if you will grant me that dignity.

Yeah absolutely. Im glad I started a poll though, it proves that your opinion is in the minority (which I assumed would be the case).

For the record, I just wanted to hear why you thought they were overrated, and now we know!

[OptOut | 8,892]

9 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Yeah absolutely. Im glad I started a poll though, it proves that your opinion is in the minority (which I assumed would be the case).

For the record, I just wanted to hear why you thought they were overrated, and now we know!

Clearly, if you look at my preferences you will see the kinds of games I am into don't tend to align heavily with what Treasure have made.

I may not be in the majority, but I'm not on my own either.

Different strokes!

[spacepup | 2,412]

Some of this stuff just varies by time period, and companies change over time.  I mean, think about some of the beloved NES developers and what some of them have been doing since.

Sort of an aside, but I love 3DRealms and I suppose where I was super into MS-DOS games, I loved a TON of their games so they have a very special place in my heart.  I'm not saying they are like "at the top," but I definitely have heavy nostalgia for their earlier games.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,588]

45 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Actually, the more I think about it the LESS impressive Treasure's output appears to be in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,588]

I'm teasing ya Opty!

3D Realms though... good gravy! 

Bio Menace was cool though.

[OptOut | 8,892]

7 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I'm teasing ya Opty!

3D Realms though... good gravy! 

Bio Menace was cool though.

Dude, I didn't even start the thread, lol!

I didn't ask for this! 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

Yeah absolutely. Im glad I started a poll though, it proves that your opinion is in the minority (which I assumed would be the case).

That opinion is in the minority on a niche forum of mostly like-minded individuals.  That's like saying being the biggest ant in the anthill is a an achievement in the grand scheme of things.

I noticed that you conveniently skipped over shitting on the other mostly-PC-centric developers that Opty mentioned, though, like iD, Valve, Rockstar, Bungie...  Did those third parties become too big to be considered a fair comparison due to their massive success?

1 hour ago, spacepup said:

Sort of an aside, but I love 3DRealms and I suppose where I was super into MS-DOS games, I loved a TON of their games so they have a very special place in my heart.  I'm not saying they are like "at the top," but I definitely have heavy nostalgia for their earlier games.

I thought about making a comment bringing up other PC companies of that era like Apogee, Electronic Arts, etc., but ultimately decided against it, as I figured I'd just get put on blast like Opty since comparing vintage PC stuff to vintage console stuff with folks who didn't play both in that time period makes things even more apples to oranges than normal.  Glad to see there are other like-minded folks, though.

55 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Bio Menace was cool though.

That was when they were Apogee, though, not 3DRealms.    Technically the same company up to a point, but generally not a discussion/argument worth having, as there was a bit of a paradigm shift in the games they produced after the name change in 1996.

[spacepup | 2,412]

Ah Apogee is another very nostalgic one for me.  I absolutely loved some of those games early on.  I even enjoyed the edutainment ones like Word Rescue.  But I remember absolutely loving games like Crystal Caves, Mystic Towers, Rise of the Triad, etc.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,588]

13 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

That was when they were Apogee, though, not 3DRealms.    Technically the same company up to a point, but

Oh, I'm aware.  I read and reread my mail away Apogee catalogs like a thousand times.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

27 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

That opinion is in the minority on a niche forum of mostly like-minded individuals.  That's like saying being the biggest ant in the anthill is a an achievement in the grand scheme of things.

I noticed that you conveniently skipped over shitting on the other mostly-PC-centric developers that Opty mentioned, though, like iD, Valve, Rockstar, Bungie...  Did those third parties become too big to be considered a fair comparison due to their massive success?

I thought about making a comment bringing up other PC companies of that era like Apogee, Electronic Arts, etc., but ultimately decided against it, as I figured I'd just get put on blast like Opty since comparing vintage PC stuff to vintage console stuff with folks who didn't play both in that time period makes things even more apples to oranges than normal.  Glad to see there are other like-minded folks, though.

That was when they were Apogee, though, not 3DRealms.    Technically the same company up to a point, but generally not a discussion/argument worth having, as there was a bit of a paradigm shift in the games they produced after the name change in 1996.

The point of my thread was to put the dev team with like sized devs, building games for similar consoles. 
 

I dont have any experience with early PC devs, because I didn’t play early pc all that much. 
 

Also, Ill admit that rareware is better than Treasure. No argument was made that treasure is the “best”. Just that they are NOT “overrated”. Ill look up to see what valve released for consoles in 8/16/32 bit era. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Lol Valve was founded in 1996. Why are they even being discussed? I know half life is held in super high regard, but never been a fan
 

Id software- looks like they didnt even release a console game during late 80s- mid 90s, outside of wolfenstein, quake and doom (all decent 1st person shooters, but all homogenous) 

 

IMO, these arent apples to apples comparison- which is already a tough task because “better” is too subjective. Thats why for the sake of argument, we need to try to find similar devs. 

[CMR | 522]

I like Treasure games, but I agree with OptOut that they are overrated.  To me they inhabit the same space as companies like Compile, TechnoSoft, Falcom and Quintet.  They made fun games when they stuck to the types of games they were good at, but when they deviated from that, their games just came off as cumbersome and disjointed.  I mostly blame Sega fans for the Treasure hype, and I think a lot of those games listed rode the coat tails of Gunstar Heroes and Radiant Silvergun.  Remove those games and a couple more and you aren't left with much that's very interesting IMO.

Ironically, I really like Wario World. 

[Tanooki | 4,952]

Irony in naming a bit, Treasure is Treasured by those wearing a particular prescription of rose tinted glasses.  That really sums it up.  If you take the top 2-3 games people lose it over they made what's left basically is what CMR and Opty there said.  They blend together or they get janky and weird if not problematic when they stray away from the one or two genres they singularly were good at.  They're not bad, they're quite good, but also good at being overrated by fans.

It's in a way like the brain damage of Nintendo fanboys who lose their shit over Earthbound.  It kind of falls into the category of you love it, or you're apathetic if not worse towards it.  It's bizarre, has too many damning quirks, but it also had equally as many cute, funny and screwy moments that made it endearing so things get overlooked like it's the best thing ever.  And just like Treasure fans (or pick another overrated spooged over game/developer) only the good parts get highlighted and the rest get dismissed if not hostile towards suggestion it's not the best thing since sliced bread.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

1 minute ago, Tanooki said:

Irony in naming a bit, Treasure is Treasured by those wearing a particular prescription of rose tinted glasses.  That really sums it up.  If you take the top 2-3 games people lose it over they made what's left basically is what CMR and Opty there said.  They blend together or they get janky and weird if not problematic when they stray away from the one or two genres they singularly were good at.  They're not bad, they're quite good, but also good at being overrated by fans.

It's in a way like the brain damage of Nintendo fanboys who lose their shit over Earthbound.  It kind of falls into the category of you love it, or you're apathetic if not worse towards it.  It's bizarre, has too many damning quirks, but it also had equally as many cute, funny and screwy moments that made it endearing so things get overlooked like it's the best thing ever.  And just like Treasure fans (or pick another overrated spooged over game/developer) only the good parts get highlighted and the rest get dismissed if not hostile towards suggestion it's not the best thing since sliced bread.

God you are a miserable, negative person. 
 

7 minutes ago, CMR said:

I like Treasure games, but I agree with OptOut that they are overrated.  To me they inhabit the same space as companies like Compile, TechnoSoft, Falcom and Quintet.  They made fun games when they stuck to the types of games they were good at, but when they deviated from that, their games just came off as cumbersome and disjointed.  I mostly blame Sega fans for the Treasure hype, and I think a lot of those games listed rode the coat tails of Gunstar Heroes and Radiant Silvergun.  Remove those games and a couple more and you aren't left with much that's very interesting IMO.

Ironically, I really like Wario World. 

good post, that makes sense. Just out of curiosity, what smaller dev teams made quality games of different genres from the same time period? Shooters, Run and gun, and platformers feels like a good variety to me. Sticking to what you are good at is just good business IMO

I would say renovation, but they did more localization than Dev (IMO)

 

And removing the top 2/3 games of any smaller team is going to have the same result. 
 

What is left if you remove halflife from valve? Almost nothing. 
 

Id software- remove quake, doom, wolfenstein- nothing

 

PS I am a sega fan!

[Reed Rothchild | 9,588]

9 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Irony in naming a bit, Treasure is Treasured by those wearing a particular prescription of rose tinted glasses.  That really sums it up.  If you take the top 2-3 games people lose it over they made what's left basically is what CMR and Opty there said.  They blend together or they get janky and weird if not problematic when they stray away from the one or two genres they singularly were good at.  They're not bad, they're quite good, but also good at being overrated by fans.

It's in a way like the brain damage of Nintendo fanboys who lose their shit over Earthbound.  It kind of falls into the category of you love it, or you're apathetic if not worse towards it.  It's bizarre, has too many damning quirks, but it also had equally as many cute, funny and screwy moments that made it endearing so things get overlooked like it's the best thing ever.  And just like Treasure fans (or pick another overrated spooged over game/developer) only the good parts get highlighted and the rest get dismissed if not hostile towards suggestion it's not the best thing since sliced bread.

We could try something out here, if you want.  You could name a smaller developer you "treasure", and a cult classic game that you adore, and I could probably copypasta your above post.  Just to show that certain things are beloved by certain demographics, without being "brain damaged", wearing "rose tinted glasses" or constantly "spooging" themselves.  

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

27 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

The point of my thread was to put the dev team with like sized devs, building games for similar consoles. 

I dont have any experience with early PC devs, because I didn’t play early pc all that much. 

Also, Ill admit that rareware is better than Treasure. No argument was made that treasure is the “best”. Just that they are NOT “overrated”. Ill look up to see what valve released for consoles in 8/16/32 bit era. 

In their days, all of those companies were Treasure-sized, or smaller.  Just because you're not personally familiar with them doesn't exclude those teams from having better output, reputations, etc., especially in their earlier days.

As for Valve, they released most of their stuff for computers, but since they published primarily for Windows and a 64-bit "home" version of the OS didn't exist until 2005, Valve falls firmly into the 16/32-bit era since the operating systems they output games for were hybrids of 16- and 32-bit until Win XP Pro 64-bit in 2005.

23 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Lol Valve was founded in 1996. Why are they even being discussed? I know half life is held in super high regard, but never been a fan

Probably because the vast majority of Treasure's releases happened in 1996 and beyond.  Treasure wasn't founded until 1992 and didn't actually release anything until 1993, so a 3-4 year difference in origins seems pretty nit picky to me.  Valve published stuff for 16/32-bit hybrid computer operating systems, so they started with the same general processing level even if the platforms were different.

24 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Id software- looks like they didnt even release a console game during late 80s- mid 90s, outside of wolfenstein, quake and doom (all decent 1st person shooters, but all homogenous)

How are bullet-hell games (Treasure's specialty, apparently) also not homogeneous?  If you're going to lump all three iD games you're personally willing to recognize into one, I'd say you really have to do the same with Treasure as well.

26 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

IMO, these arent apples to apples comparison- which is already a tough task because “better” is too subjective. Thats why for the sake of argument, we need to try to find similar devs. 

It's not apples to apples, but "overrated" is also highly subjective.  I think they're overrated in general, when compared to other developers in general.  I don't care for the particular tiny niche that they dwelled in, so I'm not going to try to say that they're overrated within that small sphere, but I will say that they are when compared to other developers and publishers overall, especially those like EA who developed and published on virtually every platform that's come along since the company existed.  Sure, in the most recent days EA has become a joke, but in the 80s, 90s, and even early 00's, they were at the top of their game, producing iconic, top-notch product across multiple genres, systems, etc., and starting from 8-bit and going all the way through to the current era.  Treasure only published 2 8-bit games, Gunstar Heroes & Dynamite Headdy, but those were ports of their 16-bit games and they didn't even develop those themselves--it was farmed out to M2 (GH) and Minato Giken (DH).  That kind of cuts one leg off of their classic era tripod.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,588]

Also, maybe I'm just overly positive, but I don't look at any of these developers and immediately think "overrated."

I don't even know what that word is supposed to mean most of the time.  Other than "most people think this thing, but they're all wrong because I'm smarter than them."

Such a weird, self-indulgent concept. 

 

 

...well, with some exceptions.  Like fucking Sonic Team for example... THAT'S the definition of overrated.  Like 90% of their shit doesn't stand any sort of test of time.  Obviously in this case I AM right, and all of those fans are wrong

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

10 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

God you are a miserable, negative person.

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle:

3 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

Bro, 3d realms?   You must be smoking taiwanese opium. Team 17? Worms and lemmings are decent, but thats about it. Releasing 1000 worms games is a bad look. Ill give you rareware, but your argument is super weak. I now remember you are British, so ofcourse you like those terrible amiga type games

Now then.

12 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

What is left if you remove halflife from valve? Almost nothing.

Team Fortress.  Counterstrike.  Portal.  Left 4 Dead.  DOTA 2.  And various sequels to most of those.  And those are just the best performing of the lot.  They're hardly "almost nothing."

14 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Id software- remove quake, doom, wolfenstein- nothing

Commander Keen in Invasion of the Vorticons and its two direct sequels.  Dangerous Dave in the Haunted Mansion.  Rescue Rover and its direct sequel.  Commander Keen in Keen Dreams.  Catacomb 3-D (predates all three you mentioned).  Commander Keen in Goodbye, Galaxy and its direct sequel.  Commander Keen in Aliens Ate My Babysitter.  Tiles of the Dragon.  And in more modern times, Rage.  And that doesn't touch any of the stuff that they just published but didn't develop.  Again, hardly "nothing."

15 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

We could try something out here, if you want.  You could name a smaller developer you "treasure", and a cult classic game that you adore, and I could probably copypasta your above post.  Just to show that certain things are beloved by certain demographics, without being "brain damaged", wearing "rose tinted glasses" or constantly "spooging" themselves.  

Pretty sure that he's just responding in-kind based on some of the responses in this thread, as well as the seeming reason for the creation of the thread itself.  Not making excuses, but making it clear that it didn't come out of nowhere.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

11 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

In their days, all of those companies were Treasure-sized, or smaller.  Just because you're not personally familiar with them doesn't exclude those teams from having better output, reputations, etc., especially in their earlier days.

As for Valve, they released most of their stuff for computers, but since they published primarily for Windows and a 64-bit "home" version of the OS didn't exist until 2005, Valve falls firmly into the 16/32-bit era since the operating systems they output games for were hybrids of 16- and 32-bit until Win XP Pro 64-bit in 2005.

Probably because the vast majority of Treasure's releases happened in 1996 and beyond.  Treasure wasn't founded until 1992 and didn't actually release anything until 1993, so a 3-4 year difference in origins seems pretty nit picky to me.  Valve published stuff for 16/32-bit hybrid computer operating systems, so they started with the same general processing level even if the platforms were different.

How are bullet-hell games (Treasure's specialty, apparently) also not homogeneous?  If you're going to lump all three iD games you're personally willing to recognize into one, I'd say you really have to do the same with Treasure as well.

It's not apples to apples, but "overrated" is also highly subjective.  I think they're overrated in general, when compared to other developers in general.  I don't care for the particular tiny niche that they dwelled in, so I'm not going to try to say that they're overrated within that small sphere, but I will say that they are when compared to other developers and publishers overall, especially those like EA who developed and published on virtually every platform that's come along since the company existed.  Sure, in the most recent days EA has become a joke, but in the 80s, 90s, and even early 00's, they were at the top of their game, producing iconic, top-notch product across multiple genres, systems, etc., and starting from 8-bit and going all the way through to the current era.  Treasure only published 2 8-bit games, Gunstar Heroes & Dynamite Headdy, but those were ports of their 16-bit games and they didn't even develop those themselves--it was farmed out to M2 (GH) and Minato Giken (DH).  That kind of cuts one leg off of their classic era tripod.

yes, I can. I can set the rules of discussion for  a thread I create. 
 

The rest is too meandering for me to reply, but I read it. Once you started talking about how windows was really 16/32 bit until 2005, you lost me. The point of this thread is 16-32 bit console era, everything else is fluff

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

2 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle:

Now then.

Team Fortress.  Counterstrike.  Portal.  Left 4 Dead.  DOTA 2.  And various sequels to most of those.  And those are just the best performing of the lot.  They're hardly "almost nothing."

Commander Keen in Invasion of the Vorticons and its two direct sequels.  Dangerous Dave in the Haunted Mansion.  Rescue Rover and its direct sequel.  Commander Keen in Keen Dreams.  Catacomb 3-D (predates all three you mentioned).  Commander Keen in Goodbye, Galaxy and its direct sequel.  Commander Keen in Aliens Ate My Babysitter.  Tiles of the Dragon.  And in more modern times, Rage.  And that doesn't touch any of the stuff that they just published but didn't develop.  Again, hardly "nothing."

Pretty sure that he's just responding in-kind based on some of the responses in this thread, as well as the seeming reason for the creation of the thread itself.  Not making excuses, but making it clear that it didn't come out of nowhere.

Man you are exhausting. 

 

 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

26 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

We could try something out here, if you want.  You could name a smaller developer you "treasure", and a cult classic game that you adore, and I could probably copypasta your above post.  Just to show that certain things are beloved by certain demographics, without being "brain damaged", wearing "rose tinted glasses" or constantly "spooging" themselves.  

If he doesn’t put in the digs about “brain damaged nintendo fanboys” or “spooge” he doesnt get his perverse excitement for the day. IM surprised we didn’t see mention of “toxic ebay sellers” or complaints about capitalism.