SMW is not great if you compare it to SMB3... Also, SMB2 stuff

[AirVillain | 490]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:43 PM, Link said:

See also: Zelda II

See also: original Evil Dead trilogy

If that is the hill you're dying on, so be it. I disagree. Japan got one sequel and USA got a different sequel. So what? Both got both in the end; in fact, Japan's 2USA got its very own release, not on a compilation like Lost Levels was.  

Please see below for clarification.

But I think you're correct in many ways.

 

On 11/27/2023 at 4:02 PM, the_wizard_666 said:

Seriously, pot and the kettle much?  You're the only one I see trolling anyone.  There's a pretty civil discussion happening here, with fun information and interesting discourse all around.  And then there's you popping in with hostility toward those that disagree with you.  When your arguments are merely insults followed with fluff, you really don't have a credible argument.  Dude, I like you, and you're clearly a passionate dude.  But you really should think through your posts sometimes before hitting the reply button.  

I'm not trolling, just stating an opinion.  One I've been pretty consistent with since I was a child.  I never liked Mario 1, and Mario 3 felt like a regression to me.  Always preferred games where I was free to explore at my leisure.  When the goal is just "go right" and they slap a time limit to restrict your ability to just wander around, that never appealed to me.  It's also why I always preferred Simon's Quest to the other Castlevania games.  It just lines up better with the type of games I enjoy playing, and the other two simply don't appeal to me at all.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, maybe we're looking at this the wrong way.  SMB2 ended with the "it was all a dream" trope.  As such, can we all agree that, had there been any more of a series to that point, the game would fit as a side story rather than a normal part of a series.  Kind of like all the Wizardry games in Japan that are similar enough to keep the title, but different enough to not actually get a number?  I dunno, it's just a thought.

Very well said, thank you.

Haha, just was curious. But great points and great input.

I think it brings up a great point about "game style" and personal preference. You gravitated more towards SMB2 USA/Castlevania II because it was more your "style". I gravitated more towards SMB1/3 because they're more MY style. I think both are equally valid! That's of course, why video games are so fun... the variety.

I still love playing SMB2USA, don't get me wrong, but I certainly prefer the "go right" games and just enjoy "smashing" through games, ala Contra for example.

I definitely agree with you on looking at SMB2USA from the perspective as a side story, and no matter how you look at it, it IS a good game and does deserve to be known as "part of the series".

But see below for more clarification because I think Link and I have been talking mostly semantics this whole time.
 

On 11/28/2023 at 12:08 AM, Link said:

So like what do you think about this? Does it not belong in DH canon because of this? Or are you neutral on that?

What do you think, @AirVillain? Is Die Hard 3 "not a 'true' sequel"? And honestly, what is the difference between "true" and "real" or "does belong"?  

Well when it comes to Die Hard, I don't really care about he canon/storytelling enough to make a decision either way. But for movies in general, if I really love a film and there's a sequel most times it is more ideal to have the original writer/director/crew involved.

Of course there are plenty of examples of good sequels that are written by different people, but I think the ones that are from the same writer/director have the potential to be more "authentic", especially if the writer/director had a larger story in mind. (ex. George Lucas w/ Star Wars. Hefty example to use, I know, haha)

But you bring up a good point, one that I tried to clear up earlier, about semantics and what we're "actually talking about".

The only difference between "true" and "real" and "does belong" is the context we use them in and what we are intended to "mean".

So, to be clear... what I'm saying is this:

SMB2 USA was not THE sequel for SMB and, as such, has a different "feel" to it and plays differently than others in the series on NES.

Emphasis on the word "the". It was NOT created as the sequel for SMB (as we know that game was created for the Famicom Disk System and was sent to HP for review). I agree it was A sequel created for SMB.

This does NOT mean I don't think SMB2 USA "belongs" in the Super Mario NES/Nintendo Series. It's a great game, it's got great characters, and it was certainly released in North America, and introduced to myself, as a "Mario game". So, yeah, it belongs in the series. Personally I don't feel SMB USA being Doki Doki panic "takes anything away" from it, but it does explain why I thought it was a bit "different" when I was a kid.

So I think in the end all we are really discussing is semantics, so we just need to 1) use the same terminology or 2) understand what each other mean when they say certain words. Hopefully my above statements helped clarify.

And although I love Skinny's gumption, I wouldn't quite go that far. But I do agree he makes all very good points. I think, like me, he enjoys having fun getting all riled up over this stuff for some fun discussion.

[AirVillain | 490]

Missed commenting on these as well...

 

On 11/29/2023 at 12:22 AM, Tanooki said:

@the_wizard_666 I'm just fed up with his troll posts about the game as I am with others online.  This false narrative even when corrected by Japanese members who worked on it still persists and it's beyond tiresome.  SMB2 was never a black sheep game until some group think troll farm decided to make it so.  He has been going on for months now doubling down on it and people seem to keep feeding his need for attention, that's really all it is.  It's annoying it persists, especially in a topic that wasn't even about SMB2 anyway, it's SMW vs SMB3 which has always been more of a hot button issue of people trying to choose which is better and there are good arguments on both sides.  It's cute he thinks I'm worked up, I'm not, I'm just over it and felt it just needs to be called out for what it is, revisionist alt-history.

Well you don't need to take your anger for others out on me. Like the_wizard said.... we're just having fun here, it doesn't need to be so serious.

Please see my comments above re: what I "mean".

I'm not sitting here making SMB2 out to be a black sheep, haha... I'm just pointing out the facts and have repeatedly said I enjoy playing SMB2 USA. It is you who is revising my history and taking from it what you want.

The reason why the discussion of SMB2 belongs along with SMB3 vs. SMW thread is very obvious. It actually proves my point. The fact that the original thread is NOT SMB2 USA vs. SMB3 vs. SMW tells the whole story.

SMB2 USA doesn't belong in the same conversation because it's a DIFFERENT STYLE OF GAME.

So as a result, as stated by the_wizard... "There's a pretty civil discussion happening here, with fun information and interesting discourse all around." around the reason of "why" SMB2 would not be included in such a comparison or discussion.

So it's very relevant to the conversation and I think a worthy conversational add-on to the SMB3 vs. SMW conversation.

 

On 11/29/2023 at 11:12 AM, Gaia Gensouki said:

Apparently there is a really heated discussion going on here. I just wanted to give my two cents in favor of SMW since it seems like the less popular choice. Of course, I loved SMB3 back in the day as part of my Super Mario All-Stars Collection on the SNES and it's justifiably regarded as one of the best NES or 8bit games in general. So no doubt about that. But back in the day I played it sooo much, that I don't really feel like revisiting it. SMW, however, is a game that I can play through and enjoy anytime and that I still go back to regularly.

It's difficult to really explain why. I think the lower difficulty is definitely a contributing factor as I enjoy having a more chill and relaxed time when playing it. On top of that it's the music, the funny sounds when jumping on enemies or kicking shells and of course the nice colorful graphics. The character designs are also really nice and cute. Yoshi is absolutely adorable as are most of the other characters as well, e.g. I just love the smiling dolphins or the big moles with their sunglasses, the different types of fish, sometimes dozing off etc. It just has so many wonderful characters aside from just the usual suspects. Or the little animations you get everytime you beat a castle with some funny sketch. The game just oozes playfulness and charme and cuteness with its every pore. It's all these little touches that Nintendo adds to their games that separate them from most other games out there.

I could go and on, like how about the levels in SMW are so intricately designed with different paths and secret exits and whatnot. But at the end of the day it just comes down to how often I play these games and how much fun I am having. And in this regard SMW comes out on top for me personally. It's obviously just my personal opinion. I'm also not a professional game critic, so don't take it too seriously.

Excellent input. Very well said.

This is part of the reason why I made this thread.... to understand better why others would pick SMW. I believe I've already stated next time I play I will be a bit more aware of some of these reasons and give them a bit more "love".

But just shows that two people can have the same/opposite reasons of liking one game vs. the other.

For example.... you said "I think the lower difficulty is definitely a contributing factor as I enjoy having a more chill and relaxed time when playing it" but for me that's a reason why I like SMB3. But I also think that both are equally valid for both of us! As I said to the_wizard, the variety of video games is what makes them great. 

If you have more reasoning on SMW please let us know, haha. I mean, shit.... that's what this place is. It's a Video Game Trust Tree.... a place where you can share your feelings without judgment.

Well... depends how riled up we are, haha.

[Tulpa | 3,526]

1 hour ago, AirVillain said:

but I think the ones that are from the same writer/director have the potential to be more "authentic", especially if the writer/director had a larger story in mind. (ex. George Lucas w/ Star Wars. Hefty example to use, I know, haha)

Are you talking about the original trilogy where he wasn't the writer or director of Empire or Jedi, or of the prequel trilogy where he was the writer and director (and they sucked ass)?

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Tulpa

[Link | 2,715]

2 hours ago, AirVillain said:

if I really love a film and there's a sequel most times it is more ideal to have the original writer/director/crew involved.

I think the ones that are from the same writer/director have the potential to be more "authentic"

Same developer, same producer (also director of the first), at least one credited programmer in common, same composer not enough for ya? 

 

3 hours ago, AirVillain said:

especially if the writer/director had a larger story in mind.

This is not applicable to Super Mario Anything.

 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

4 hours ago, Tulpa said:

Are you talking about the original trilogy where he wasn't the writer or director of Empire or Jedi, or of the prequel trilogy where he was the writer and director (and they sucked ass)?

 

I was thinking that myself.  I think the only one he wrote entirely himself was A New Hope.  The rest he got credits as a co author, and he certainly wrote the screenplays, but the stories themselves were written by others.

[Tulpa | 3,526]

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

I was thinking that myself.  I think the only one he wrote entirely himself was A New Hope.  The rest he got credits as a co author, and he certainly wrote the screenplays, but the stories themselves were written by others.

He did the story (basically the general narrative) for Empire, but Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan did the screenplay/dialogue. He was co-credited with Kasdan for Jedi's screenplay. Edit: It looks like he did do some of the screenplay for Empire, on further examination, but he wasn't credited.

He was a good writer/director in the 70s. Both Star Wars and American Graffiti are top notch, and he's got a good overall vision, but he works best when working with experienced collaborators.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Tulpa

[T-Pac | 7,577]

Okay - but what if Super Mario World had the Tanooki Leaf instead of the Cape Leaf?

It would be, like, the perfect Mario game...

[T-Pac]

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

leaf is the greatest.

feather controls like a brick thrown off a cliff.

I avoid getting yoshi. Big clunky sprite.

 

[doner24 | 1,197]

42 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

leaf is the greatest.

feather controls like a brick thrown off a cliff.

I avoid getting yoshi. Big clunky sprite.

 

Feather takes skill, leaf is for noobs. 

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

17 minutes ago, doner24 said:

Feather takes skill, leaf is for noobs. 

Sounds like someone who doesn’t know how to use the leaf to me

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

@doner24 showing off his leaf skills…

[doner24 | 1,197]

9 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

@doner24 showing off his leaf skills…

I’m not a coward, I don’t run away from a boomerang bro without letting him know who’s in charge. 

[Tulpa | 3,526]

[Tanooki | 4,943]

On 12/3/2023 at 1:52 PM, AirVillain said:

Missed commenting on these as well...

 

Well you don't need to take your anger for others out on me. Like the_wizard said.... we're just having fun here, it doesn't need to be so serious.

...

I'm not angry and I'd put more here but you'd just feed off it because you're getting a rise.  I'm not changing anything, you brought it into the conversation and kept going in circles (in other posts than these) how it's a fake.  I'm sick of false narratives, that's it.  These days I don't have the time, care, or interest to pull out a box of crayons to explain things anymore unless I really really were worked up over it and felt it was necessary.  SMB2(USA) never should have been pulled into the conversation in the first place as the whole SMB3 vs 4(World) has been ongoing for 30+ years now and that's enough to fill a book.

[AirVillain | 490]

On 12/3/2023 at 3:14 PM, Tulpa said:

Are you talking about the original trilogy where he wasn't the writer or director of Empire or Jedi, or of the prequel trilogy where he was the writer and director (and they sucked ass)?

Hahaha, excellent points.

Clearly was incorrect on the writing/directing aspect of Star Wars. I was more thinking of the "overall vision" aspect to it as you mentioned later.

The point was that one person (George Lucas) had a story in mind for the first series (4, 5, 6). Maybe he didn't.... I'm not THAT huge into Star Wars. I was under the impression that George had made the first film as a one-off, but still had a series in mind....?

IF THAT IS NOT THE CASE.... then I'll just use a generic example: If a writer creates a book/TV Show/Film....  And I enjoyed that piece of work, then if were to want to experience the sequel, I would hope that it's done by that same person/team.

If not, then it can still be "good", but I just think if it's done by the OG crew it has a better chance of being "authentic" as opposed to just trying to capitalize on a hit (which it likely is that as well).

Maybe that explains myself a bit better.... without using such a shitty example.
 

On 12/3/2023 at 4:34 PM, Link said:

Same developer, same producer (also director of the first), at least one credited programmer in common, same composer not enough for ya?

This is not applicable to Super Mario Anything.

But that same developer, same producer & director, same credited programmer, and same composer were not making the sequel to Super Mario Bros when they made Doki Doki Panic. They already made the sequel for SMB on the Famicom disk system.

So if we are using the movie analogy, it's like all those people made a new space movie after Star Wars was released using the same elements that made it a hit, but released it in Japan with Japanese Dream Factory characters. Then when George Lucas needed a sequel to Star Wars he took the Japanese film and re-edited it, changed the characters, and released it in North America as a sequel to Star Wars.

You brought up the Die Hard example, not me.

So yes, SMB2 USA was created by the same team as SMB. And SMB2 USA is a great game. However, SMB2USA wasn't THE (first/intended) sequel for SMB.

I believe all those statements to be true.

 

23 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

leaf is the greatest.

feather controls like a brick thrown off a cliff.

I avoid getting yoshi. Big clunky sprite.

 

Here we go. Back at it with some MEAT!

Now I will certainly agree that Feather controls like shit. The worst flying power-up between all the games. Yeah, I said it.

And I also avoid getting Yoshi. Big clunky sprite is VERY accurate. Also, I'm annoyed by the little addition the the music. The funky little beat switch is neat, but it gets too repetitive.   I only use Yoshi when I need him.

But for the Leaf... are we just leaving the Tanooki Suit out of this as it's CLEARLY just the greatest power-up ever and the Cape simply isn't even in the same category???

Because Tanooki Suit IS better than the Leaf. I understand that's inherent in it's statue powers. So maybe it's too overpowered to be considered part of the conversation?

 

22 hours ago, doner24 said:

Feather takes skill, leaf is for noobs. 

Nobody puts Leaf in the corner!

Haha... I mean... Feather is okay, I guess... but comparatively I think it (Feather) is pretty shitty.

When you are flying with the Feather and get hit, yeah you just fluff off, but the control of flying is so awkward.... I don't want to dip, I want to go UP!

So yeah, the high jump with the cape is neat, but the up and down required from the cape I think makes it less functional.

You couldn't do that tricky level from SMB3 in World 6, confirmed level 5, with the cape. So an awesomely fun level like that would be impossible. You need Yoshi and a blue shell to fly for stuff like that in SMW. Why do we have to rely on our dinosaur pal to help us along? Can't do it ourselves??? Why is the Feather not powerful enough to help us?

And how do we feel about the Tanooki Suit? It's the G.O.A.T.... clearly.

But yeah... very insulting of Skinny to imply that you would run away from a boomerang guy. The nerve! So very disrespectful.


 

Ps. @T-Pac I think the Yoshi with Leaf Tail could certainly help!

Edited December 6, 2023 by AirVillain
Added reasoning for liking Leaf/Tanooki Suit. Bold and capilization...

[Link | 2,715]

56 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

You brought up the Die Hard example, not me.

No I didn't. Defaultgen did. 

56 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

SMB2USA wasn't THE (first/intended) sequel for SMB.

Add whatever qualifiers you like. It is a sequel for SMB.  

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

@AirVillain dude I just want you to know I got you. SMB2 USA is a fake mario game. We got like 3 people in here trying to tell us we are crazy and act all shocked by the notion. 

i was just talking to a lady at work. I cleaned up her nes for her cause she loves Tetris. I told her to throw tetris away and put smb3 in. We get to talking and she says “I don’t like smb2 it so different it doesn’t even seem like the same game”. 

I just smiling so big. Thinking “that’s cause it’s not a real Mario game”.

Edited December 6, 2023 by docile tapeworm

[AirVillain | 490]

1 hour ago, Link said:

No I didn't. Defaultgen did. 

Add whatever qualifiers you like. It is a sequel for SMB.  

Okay... Pardon me. DefaultGen brought up Die Hard, but you asked me this very specific question:

On 11/28/2023 at 12:08 AM, Link said:

So like what do you think about this? Does it not belong in DH canon because of this? Or are you neutral on that?

What do you think, @AirVillain? Is Die Hard 3 "not a 'true' sequel"? And honestly, what is the difference between "true" and "real" or "does belong"?  

Ssssoooo..... I answered it.

To the second part.... Call it a "qualifier" or whatever you like.

Was SMB2USA "a" sequel for SMB? Yes, I agree with you, it was.

But I present you these 4 questions:

1) Would SMB2USA exist if Howard Philips didn't shoot down the original sequel for SMB? No.

2) Was SMB2USA the original and intended sequel for SMB? No.

3) Was Doki Doki Panic created to be a "Mario" game? No.

4) Does SMB2USA belong in the same conversation as SMB3 vs SMW? No.

These are all important facts.
 

4 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

@AirVillain dude I just want you to know I got you. SMB2 USA is a fake mario game. We got like 3 people in here trying to tell us we are crazy and act all shocked by the notion. 

i was just talking to a lady at work. I clean up her nes for her cause she loves Tetris. I told her to throw tetris away and put smb3 in. We get to talking and she says “I don’t like smb2 it so different it doesn’t even seem like the same game”. 

I just smiling so big.

When Skinny has a random lady at work telling him “I don’t like smb2 it so different it doesn’t even seem like the same game”.... that's some pretty solid conversational hearsay. Pretty solid evidence indeed.

[mbd39 | 2,026]

13 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

@AirVillain dude I just want you to know I got you. SMB2 USA is a fake mario game. We got like 3 people in here trying to tell us we are crazy and act all shocked by the notion. 

i was just talking to a lady at work. I cleaned up her nes for her cause she loves Tetris. I told her to throw tetris away and put smb3 in. We get to talking and she says “I don’t like smb2 it so different it doesn’t even seem like the same game”. 

I just smiling so big. Thinking “that’s cause it’s not a real Mario game”.

I've noticed that for some people SMB2 is their favorite Mario game (or the "only good" Mario game) because it's so different from the others.

 

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

@AirVillain I actually dislike the tanooki suit because I feel like it’s trying to hard. Like c’mon we already got leaf over here just completely handling things why are you coming in cramping leaf’s style. It’s like a riced out version of leaf and the statue isn’t very practical. Like I’ve never thought “shit I need the statue power”. I’m not a fan of changing the aesthetic value while keeping the same functionality. 

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

4 minutes ago, mbd39 said:

I've noticed that for some people SMB2 is their favorite Mario game (or the "only good" Mario game) because it's so different from the others.

 

Those people don’t actually enjoy the real SMB series. 

[Link | 2,715]

22 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

These are all important facts.

ok man whatever

[G-type | 2,487]

1 hour ago, AirVillain said:

But I present you these 4 questions:

1) Would SMB2USA exist if Howard Philips didn't shoot down the original sequel for SMB? No.

2) Was SMB2USA the original and intended sequel for SMB? No.

3) Was Doki Doki Panic created to be a "Mario" game? No.

4) Does SMB2USA belong in the same conversation as SMB3 vs SMW? No.

1) Howard Philips certainly lobbied against SMB2japan, but ultimately, it was Mr. Arakawa's decision.

2) so what?

3) The main reason they were able to easily adapt it, was because Miyamoto continuously encouraged them to make it more "mario-like" throughout its development. (doki doki was originally going to be vertical only)

4) When the conversation is: "which is the best?"... (the implication being that the its a battle between first a second place between SMB3 and SMW)... its totally fair to bring up SMB2, if you think its the best. Doki Doki (1987) started its development a full year after SMB3 (1986) and that later start date gave it the edge in some graphical and technical areas. Especially the sprites:

 

[Tulpa | 3,526]

4 hours ago, AirVillain said:

When Skinny has a random lady at work telling him “I don’t like smb2 it so different it doesn’t even seem like the same game”.... that's some pretty solid conversational hearsay. Pretty solid evidence indeed.

Counterpoint, this is a person who willingly interacts with Skinny.

That puts her entire judgment into doubt right there. 

 

 

(Luv ya, Skinny!)

[Reed Rothchild | 9,561]

27 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Counterpoint, this is a person who willingly interacts with Skinny.

That puts her entire judgment into doubt right there. 

 

 

(Luv ya, Skinny!)