Prototypes 101

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

11 hours ago, Sumez said:

What exactly are the cons against dumping a prototype?

I agree with @DefaultGen that every piece of undumped rom really isn't some sort of critical video game history. But at the same time, a lot of prototypes are probably interesting to someone, and there's always a risk of something being in there that you might not be aware of. Is there really any good reason to be act like stubborn mule about it?

It's just money, apparently they're worth less to others if they're released. Dumping isn't so bad but some people think once the file is duplicated, it'll somehow get out. 

[Gloves | 11,776]

Just now, Code Monkey said:

some people think once the file is duplicated, it'll somehow get out. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 hour ago, Code Monkey said:

It's just money, apparently they're worth less to others if they're released. Dumping isn't so bad but some people think once the file is duplicated, it'll somehow get out. 

If you're good at marketing, they'll be worth tons; if you suck, not so much.

 

[Tanooki | 4,933]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

If you're good at marketing, they'll be worth tons; if you suck, not so much.

 

Exactly it's about the PR game 100%.

You can either just drop it out there, let people exploit it quietly on bootlegs or whatever and maybe some more uptight proto buyers will take a more dim view of the thing and intentionally try and value it less to teach a lesson like some snob stunt tactic.

Or, you can PR the crap out of it like the Sim City NES release, or the Earthbound (Zero) one demiforce did like 20 years ago.  Get large gaming media coverage, interviews, do a dive/deep dive about it, go further like SC had with documentation, added files, the works.  I'd comfortably argue if the buy of SC in theory was 10K when it was put up for show a few years ago it's probably worth 50%-100%+ more at this rate.  People are very aware, it's very documented, yet it still is like 1 of 2 known carts and if you want it...you'll now be fighting the mob vs a couple quiet back room buyers.  Same logic as the bs at ebay vs using local buyers(facebook, offer up, etc)... Do you want a million views or a thousand, and which do you think will rack up more cash? (Psst...ebay.)

[Sumez | 2,950]

9 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

It's just money, apparently they're worth less to others if they're released. Dumping isn't so bad but some people think once the file is duplicated, it'll somehow get out. 

Bweh. All I see in this is another argument in favor of dumping it. 

Video games as financial investments can fuck right off 

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

23 hours ago, fcgamer said:

If you're good at marketing, they'll be worth tons; if you suck, not so much.

 

How do you market a game nobody has heard of?

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

3 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

How do you market a game nobody has heard of?

If it's an unreleased and complete or mostly complete game for NES or SNES or some really collectable console: post pics, vids, or whatever on collector sites like this one and it will market itself.

Then, if you want to make/sell copies for cash, start an interest/sale thread like the good old days of NA or contact a publisher to do up a nice CIB copy and then sit back and collect the money afterward...

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

15 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

If it's an unreleased and complete or mostly complete game for NES or SNES or some really collectable console: post pics, vids, or whatever on collector sites like this one and it will market itself.

Then, if you want to make/sell copies for cash, start an interest/sale thread like the good old days of NA or contact a publisher to do up a nice CIB copy and then sit back and collect the money afterward...

He was talking about the value of the cartridge itself for resale, not selling the software from it. I'm wondering how you can increase the value of the cartridge through marketing.

So the situation is a cartridge of a game that was never released at retail and the ROM is freely available because it has been dumped and released on the internet. Now how do you sell that for more money just through marketing?

[fcgamer | 4,723]

7 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

He was talking about the value of the cartridge itself for resale, not selling the software from it. I'm wondering how you can increase the value of the cartridge through marketing.

So the situation is a cartridge of a game that was never released at retail and the ROM is freely available because it has been dumped and released on the internet. Now how do you sell that for more money just through marketing?

I'm really not sure I should be giving non-clients free marketing advice but it's as simple as deciding upon a campaign or two, adding value, and going nuts.

Take this cartridge for example, complete garbage tbh:

Running that video and circulating it around, suddenly there's a bit of fame attached to both of those cartridges, and if I sold the pair (I'm not looking to sell), the price would be higher than what the initial sell price would be.

After that video I also ran an "Adopt a Top Gun" campaign and ended up selling those cartridges, games I couldn't even give away previously. It all came down to clever marketing.

For your cartridge, I'd personally create an interest in it initially. Bring it to some Canadian gaming conventions or something and showcase it, create an interest and something memorable about it. Add value, create a history. Etc etc. Heck, throw it into an indie film. Then dump the game and get it to the masses, but the ones that really took to it from your earlier campaigns will want the physical cartridge even more, and the value will increase. It could be NWC all over again.

 

[CMR | 519]

Releasing protos can devalue them, there is no doubt about that.  That's why I really appreciate people like Cifaldi who have invested a lot of their own money into protos just to dump and release them.  Lots of respect for that guy.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

1 hour ago, CMR said:

Releasing protos can devalue them, there is no doubt about that.  That's why I really appreciate people like Cifaldi who have invested a lot of their own money into protos just to dump and release them.  Lots of respect for that guy.

As long as the people who are clamoring the loudest for the release of the ROM are donating to dudes like Frank so they can keep paying it forward. Those who are just 'GIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIE" are leeches.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Tulpa

[DeterioratingBrains | 6]

3 hours ago, CMR said:

Releasing protos can devalue them, there is no doubt about that.  That's why I really appreciate people like Cifaldi who have invested a lot of their own money into protos just to dump and release them.  Lots of respect for that guy.

No evidence whatsoever in that regard in the past 20+ years. Even for rare commercial games that got dumped later this remains wrong.

[CMR | 519]

9 hours ago, DeterioratingBrains said:

No evidence whatsoever in that regard in the past 20+ years. Even for rare commercial games that got dumped later this remains wrong.

That's not what I have seen said by Cifaldi and others.  I remember this being discussed at length (I think on DP forums) when he got Bioforce Ape.  I'm not a collector though, so I'll have to defer to others.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

5 hours ago, CMR said:

That's not what I have seen said by Cifaldi and others.  I remember this being discussed at length (I think on DP forums) when he got Bioforce Ape.  I'm not a collector though, so I'll have to defer to others.

Yes, that may  have been true twenty years ago (that's what the argument always was, anyways) but the landscape has changed quite a bit since then. Here are my thoughts on the matter:

1. The insane deep-pocketed collectors are not going to be interested in 95% of prototypes, dumped or undumped, released or unreleased games. Why? They are barely interested in regular video games anyways. Look at the titles that become the major "hits" for the investment, small-dicked shoot-a-lion dentist club: Marios, sports, Marvel superheroes (I do have a legit sealed John Madden whether people want to acknowledge it or not, btw).  So are these guys going to be purchasing prototypes, magazine samples, and demos of Clash at Demonhead or other games they never heard of? Of course not.

2. The people that would be purchasing prototypes of games that aren't big ticket fall into two categories, namely collectors and preservationists. The latter group is not going to be dropping mint on a game that has already been dumped, so yes, it removes part of the competition out of the equation and could potentially lower the price of the game, if it were dumped. Similarly, while collectors are interested in the physical object, having an item that no one else has access to / has played does have a certain appeal, perhaps giving it an edge in value. Or does it, though?

3. Times have changed since the early collecting days when we were all hovered around DP like flies drawn towards shit or sour wine. Many preservationists (such as Frank Cifaldi himself) recognize and accept that resources are finite (i.e. money to purchase and dump games with), therefore we have to pick our battles. His situation with WATA is a good example; the game gets dumped and preserved, albeit not released, and at least some people know what the differences between that build and the retail build are, allowing us to document and paint a better picture of a game's development. I'd even argue that in the twenty years we just went though, these folks came to realize that it isn't even important to attempt to preserve everything, as it's physically impossible and the time and money could be better utilized elsewhere.

But this sort of attitude is very, very different from the attitudes of 2001. Similarly, as collectors, we are mostly beyond the full set days, and people are purchasing items that have a significance to them. So when we see prototypes appear on ebay, whether dumped or undumped, there just isn't nearly the "OMG Prototypes" thought that there once was.

4. Due to the changing landscape, I feel it's necessary to reevaluate the archaic, outmoded idea that dumped prototypes are worth less than undumped ones. If it were a rare, unreleased Mario game for example, an undumped title might have a huge appeal to investors, collectors, and historians / preservationists alike; however, I would take a dumped Mega Man 3 prototype with no changes any day over a Clash at Demonhead alpha with major changes. 

These are different times, and as such, the rules have changed entirely.

[DarkTone | 984]

@fcgamerwhy wouldn't people acknowledge it? 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 hour ago, DarkTone said:

@fcgamerwhy wouldn't people acknowledge it? 

Oh there's debate as to whether it's a reseal or not, but circumstantial evidence suggests it's legit.

[CMR | 519]

Maybe I need to clarify a little further.  If it's a well known and popular game, then no it probably isn't going to change in value very much if it's proto is dumped.  I'm also not talking about appreciation over time.  All this stuff has gotten more valuable over the years.  If it's a proto of an unreleased game, however, then I will say it's going to be worth more if its rom isn't released. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

22 minutes ago, CMR said:

Maybe I need to clarify a little further.  If it's a well known and popular game, then no it probably isn't going to change in value very much if it's proto is dumped.  I'm also not talking about appreciation over time.  All this stuff has gotten more valuable over the years.  If it's a proto of an unreleased game, however, then I will say it's going to be worth more if its rom isn't released. 

Not entirely though, as there's a huge elephant in the room that no one is talking about.

Unless the unreleased game is very significant to the Wata shoot lion crowds, the only people that are interested are collectors, preservationists, and gamers, with the first two groups being the most likely to pony up the cash for the item.

Remove collectors out the equation, for example, and it's just going to be the preservationists going after the game. Now here's the honest truth, a lot of the collector guys that would have been interested in throwing down cash for this stuff years back are out, out of the hobby. It's a phenomenon we will see more and more of. So what does that leave us with?

An unreleased game and little demand, even the concept of needing it publically released is seen by now as outdated. 

[Tanooki | 4,933]

If right, that's a classic ripple effect of damage from the original point of origin, and I'm talking further in the rear from the Halperin/WATA scam blast going on, but the root of it going back easily a decade.  The early pioneers of the pre-LRG style fomo bullshit in games, cinemassacre and their sort pumping up obscure bad games and good games, the middle of the road indifferent with video and print to help make their own owned stuff worth more, but scaring others to jump in before it's gone (gone up.)  That rippled into more videos, more exploitation through exploration, savaging another then another t to the point we got VGA grading and when that stagnated with the insane cash starting in force it sucked in the douche-squad from wata+ha going all in on the 6-7 figures emperor level collectards with more pocket change than brain cells.

The ripple even hit this site, let's be honest...it's NA2.0 community wise more than not... the stuff regulars old as myself and more who would be saying this stuff in here and a drove of posts since this (vgs) went live would have been spitfired, shunned, banned for it.  Now without blinders we're fed up with the crap too and free to speak it.

[inasuma | 1,203]

On 5/10/2022 at 7:03 PM, Code Monkey said:

I've been having a hell of a time with mine. I didn't think anyone cared about whether the software on the cartridge was released or not, I certainly didn't, I'd pay the same amount either way.

Last year I was emailing back and forth with Frank Cifaldi and he said he'd dump over 100 of my NES prototypes for me for free if I agreed to allow him to release them. We got all the details worked out to do my entire Tengen library and the day I finally agreed and asked how we get going on it he ghosted me, no response. A week later I ask him again and once again, no response, he just left me.

So instead, I found someone local that said he could dump them all and I left them with him for a few weeks. He managed to dump all of them, then I went back and picked up the games and he said he'd package everything up for me into a download so I can get all of the dumps. That was a year ago and I've asked him multiple times, he has also ghosted me. As far as I can assume, he just wanted to dump my games for himself and had no intention of giving me the files. I asked him 2 or 3 times with no response and eventually gave up.

Since then I've accumulated quite a bit more, some that were not even previously known to exist and as far as I know are the only known copies of these unreleased games, one of them a Mario game.

So a few weeks ago I contacted Frank again to give hi ma second chance. We went back and forth again for a week or two to discuss the games and he once again said he could do them for me, even told me he could get Wata to encase them even though they're not offering that service on their website at this time. Once again I agreed to send him everything and once again when I asked how we get started, he ghosted me again. What's up with this guy?

Then I was speaking with another collector and he told me prototypes are worth MUCH more if the dumps are unreleased. So long story but after hearing that, I don't mind dumping my prototypes but now I don't want to just release the files if it's going to be the difference in $20,000 worth of value in something. Maybe some of them but not all of them.

Check my Instagram below for details.

That’s such a waste you were ghosted not once, not twice… but three times, but at different stages of the process for each person?

I’d really love to know why Frank keeps ghosting, especially. I know he’s a busy guy but… this feels just lazy.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 hour ago, inasuma said:

That’s such a waste you were ghosted not once, not twice… but three times, but at different stages of the process for each person?

I’d really love to know why Frank keeps ghosting, especially. I know he’s a busy guy but… this feels just lazy.

It's extremely difficult to get ahold of him. I put him in touch with a guy who has a Super Mario prototype and wants it dumped, God only knows if he wrote the guy or not, and since I'm just a middle man, there's little I can do about it either way.

I know how busy I am, so I can definitely sympathize with being busy. Then again, with big ticket stuff, really should be prioritising that.

 

[OptOut | 8,883]

11 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Not entirely though, as there's a huge elephant in the room that no one is talking about.

Unless the unreleased game is very significant to the Wata shoot lion crowds, the only people that are interested are collectors, preservationists, and gamers, with the first two groups being the most likely to pony up the cash for the item.

Remove collectors out the equation, for example, and it's just going to be the preservationists going after the game. Now here's the honest truth, a lot of the collector guys that would have been interested in throwing down cash for this stuff years back are out, out of the hobby. It's a phenomenon we will see more and more of. So what does that leave us with?

An unreleased game and little demand, even the concept of needing it publically released is seen by now as outdated. 

Never been more wrong dude...

https://minusworlds.com/prod-details?id=721

Didn't you know prototypes are the best compliment to your sealed Batman?

[fcgamer | 4,723]

38 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Never been more wrong dude...

https://minusworlds.com/prod-details?id=721

Didn't you know prototypes are the best compliment to your sealed Batman?

I'd rather complement my sealed games with stuffed lions and stolen Picassos.

[DeterioratingBrains | 6]

13 hours ago, CMR said:

Maybe I need to clarify a little further.  If it's a well known and popular game, then no it probably isn't going to change in value very much if it's proto is dumped.  I'm also not talking about appreciation over time.  All this stuff has gotten more valuable over the years.  If it's a proto of an unreleased game, however, then I will say it's going to be worth more if its rom isn't released. 

How so? A ROM dump of some lesser known property literally builds its own reputation. In this public you will always find a subset that truly enjoyed that one unreleased game and will desire to acquire it, whatever as a reproduction or the said proto.
The only argument that goes your way is the number of preservation societies or individuals which, at times, lack coordination and ends up fighting against each other. And even then, that is more artificial than anything.

There are also very rare instances of pricks going all out to prevent this happening that could also go your way but these remain a rare sight. I can only think off of two instances for NES over the past 10 years:

• Sim City, where some Australian offered $50k per cartridge with clear intentions to never let the game slip. Apparently the seller shat on them as they (the buyer) was evidently ass-ish.
• Some Japanese unreleased RPG for the Famicom, where the buyer spent >$10k and then anonymously bragged on 2channel on how they had saved a Japanese treasure from occidentalism, with a whole rant that was just packed racism and japanese nationalism. It just felt like rage tears honestly. Must be harsh to blow away a few salaries with such a stupid motive.

Edited May 17, 2022 by DeterioratingBrains

[Ferris Bueller | 495]

1 hour ago, DeterioratingBrains said:

Sim City, where some Australian offered $50k per cartridge with clear intentions to never let the game slip. Apparently the seller shat on them as they (the buyer) was evidently ass-ish.

This is not what I remember at all, and I was a member of this transaction.

Yes, the other potential buyer was going to buy both carts. Yes, he was going to vault them. But I thought he was a decent guy. He was upfront and honest about the fact that for him, this was an investment. I did not deal with them as much as others, like say the actual seller of the prototype, but we talked some and I appreciated how much he shared with me about his collection.

Just my two cents.