Prototypes 101

[DarkTone | 984]

Couldn't find an existing thread on this. What is everyone's views on dumping prototypes? 

I only know a few pros and cons, but there are a lot of people here with years of collecting experience, and wanted to hear what you think. Some hate being bullied into releasing something they paid a lot for. Others want the game preserved, and will buy the game if they have to. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

Dump them, release them at appropriate times.

I have some prototypes I've been trying to dump, and when if I do manage to get them dumped, then I'll release them possibly around Christmas time or whenever to aid in promoting my TV Game Foundation Formosa project. 

Dumping and releasing prototypes is a great way to generate good will in the community, but you need to make sure that you plan the releases, as just to dump it and drop it benefits no one, as the game release would get lost basically. But a smart person would use dumping games as a marketing technique for their other projects, and that is much more valuable than keeping the game locked up forever, which would actually generate bad publicity in some manner. 

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

I think dumping prototypes makes you a super cool dude. I also think people get worked up about people who don't dump protos for literally no reason.

A sample copy of NES Adventures of Lolo 2 is not a critical piece of gaming history. If it didn't exist, no one's lives or perspective on the history of game development would ever change. If no one knew it existed, no one would be clamoring for it to be dumped. This is an assumption, but I'm going to guess a good one, 99% of people who complain about undumped prototypes never look through prototype dumps or create/read documentation about them.

Prototypes are interesting and sometimes insightful, especially in regards to undumped games, massive changes, or historic games, but there's about a million other pieces of gaming history that matter more.

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

I've been having a hell of a time with mine. I didn't think anyone cared about whether the software on the cartridge was released or not, I certainly didn't, I'd pay the same amount either way.

Last year I was emailing back and forth with Frank Cifaldi and he said he'd dump over 100 of my NES prototypes for me for free if I agreed to allow him to release them. We got all the details worked out to do my entire Tengen library and the day I finally agreed and asked how we get going on it he ghosted me, no response. A week later I ask him again and once again, no response, he just left me.

So instead, I found someone local that said he could dump them all and I left them with him for a few weeks. He managed to dump all of them, then I went back and picked up the games and he said he'd package everything up for me into a download so I can get all of the dumps. That was a year ago and I've asked him multiple times, he has also ghosted me. As far as I can assume, he just wanted to dump my games for himself and had no intention of giving me the files. I asked him 2 or 3 times with no response and eventually gave up.

Since then I've accumulated quite a bit more, some that were not even previously known to exist and as far as I know are the only known copies of these unreleased games, one of them a Mario game.

So a few weeks ago I contacted Frank again to give hi ma second chance. We went back and forth again for a week or two to discuss the games and he once again said he could do them for me, even told me he could get Wata to encase them even though they're not offering that service on their website at this time. Once again I agreed to send him everything and once again when I asked how we get started, he ghosted me again. What's up with this guy?

Then I was speaking with another collector and he told me prototypes are worth MUCH more if the dumps are unreleased. So long story but after hearing that, I don't mind dumping my prototypes but now I don't want to just release the files if it's going to be the difference in $20,000 worth of value in something. Maybe some of them but not all of them.

Check my Instagram below for details.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

Prototypes of unreleased NES games are beyond cool, but I've never understood why people care so much about early builds of already-released games: "Like, OMG, they changed something! Can you believe that, something is actually changed!!!!!!!!"

But if a dump of Bandai's Ultimate Journey for NES showed up on the internet, man I would be in lala land...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

@Code Monkey I see you've changed your location to Western Canada, but if you're still in Calgary, I can dump any EPROM that's not soldered to a board pretty easily, and if you left a memory stick with me, I could just load up all the data onto the stick so you'd have the data when you came back to pick up the chips.  PM me if you're at all interested...

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

18 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

@Code Monkey I see you've changed your location to Western Canada, but if you're still in Calgary, I can dump any EPROM that's not soldered to a board pretty easily, and if you left a memory stick with me, I could just load up all the data onto the stick so you'd have the data when you came back to pick up the chips.  PM me if you're at all interested...

I moved out of Calgary but I'm still nearby. I already had someone dump them all and it didn't work out so I wouldn't want to go through that again. I do appreciate the offer though, that's very nice of you.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

1 hour ago, Code Monkey said:

Then I was speaking with another collector and he told me prototypes are worth MUCH more if the dumps are unreleased. So long story but after hearing that, I don't mind dumping my prototypes but now I don't want to just release the files if it's going to be the difference in $20,000 worth of value in something. Maybe some of them but not all of them.

That makes sense, doesn't it? With an unreleased game ROM, everyone would be chomping at the bit to play it. If it's already out there, it's only worth what a proto collector who just wants the original board would pay.

The question is, who wants to take the financial hit on buying an unreleased game and then distributing the ROM for everyone to play.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

1 hour ago, Code Monkey said:

I moved out of Calgary but I'm still nearby. I already had someone dump them all and it didn't work out so I wouldn't want to go through that again. I do appreciate the offer though, that's very nice of you.

No worries, but you should definitely get them backed up somehow, especially any "one of a kinds" so that your data is protected...

[RH | 4,903]

I have some GB games I need to resume but I no longer have a Windows PC so I can’t use my Bennvenn dumper.  I sure hope that the Analogue Pocket one day gets and update to allow dumping and that I won’t need the dock to do it.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 hour ago, Code Monkey said:

I moved out of Calgary but I'm still nearby. I already had someone dump them all and it didn't work out so I wouldn't want to go through that again. I do appreciate the offer though, that's very nice of you.

If that's referring to me, I admit I'm pretty bad at procrastinating.  Did I ever even send you the files?  I still have them and can send them your way pretty quickly.  I think I've compiled as much as I can get without having to figure things out anyway.

1 hour ago, Tulpa said:

The question is, who wants to take the financial hit on buying an unreleased game and then distributing the ROM for everyone to play.

That depends on whether they actually take a hit or not.  If it's a completely unreleased game and a finished build (or at least fully playable), it wouldn't be too tough to make a run of repro carts, sell them, and THEN release the ROM.  Myself and @Dr. Morbis both make repro carts, and I'm currently looking into making boxes and manuals as well (I may not have the means to acquire the tools though...but it doesn't hurt to look into it).  There are certainly costs involved in such an endeavor, but it's certainly possible to do.  The information is out there, the tools and materials aren't outrageously expensive...it's really just a matter of how much time and energy it's worth to do it.

40 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

No worries, but you should definitely get them backed up somehow, especially any "one of a kinds" so that your data is protected...

100% this.  There are no guarantees that the chips won't crap out at some point.  If you have the data dumped, it's easy enough to fix it, or at least not lose a piece of history to the ravages of time.  While I wouldn't condone releasing it after the item is out of your hands, you can easily pass the file along to a buyer to save them from having to dump it themselves, and just delete it on your own end afterward.  Even without plans to release the ROM, you should definitely back it up.

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

48 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

If that's referring to me, I admit I'm pretty bad at procrastinating.  Did I ever even send you the files?  I still have them and can send them your way pretty quickly.  I think I've compiled as much as I can get without having to figure things out anyway.

I would like to have them please.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

17 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I would like to have them please.

So I didn't send them your way.  Shit.  I'll get them zipped and PM you a link to the drive.  I'm actually going through them right now, making some notes on the things I can't figure out, and then I'll be getting it zipped up and uploaded.

Sorry about that man...life's gone through a lot of upheaval, and frankly, I just plain forgot about it.  I definitely have a lot more time than ever right now though, so it's gonna be done at some point tonight.

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

11 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

So I didn't send them your way.  Shit.  I'll get them zipped and PM you a link to the drive.  I'm actually going through them right now, making some notes on the things I can't figure out, and then I'll be getting it zipped up and uploaded.

Sorry about that man...life's gone through a lot of upheaval, and frankly, I just plain forgot about it.  I definitely have a lot more time than ever right now though, so it's gonna be done at some point tonight.

Thank you.

I hope everything works out for you.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

6 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Thank you.

I hope everything works out for you.

It's getting better, though my future is a bit dim at the moment.  I'll figure it out though.  My interest is getting rekindled though...just tinkering with it is making me want to do more of this kind of thing.  Maybe I'll try learning to muck with code again...been so long, and I did enjoy it...just gotta get my living space in order first.

EDIT: Also, I have a lot on my plate now, but there were several Pac-Man chips in that pile.  I'm too lazy to compare ROMs, but this may be of interest to you: https://lostmediaarchive.fandom.com/wiki/Unreleased_Pac-Man_Tengen_Port Basically, it sounds like they were at some point planning to give Pac-Man the Ms. Pac treatment with extra stuff instead of being identical to the Namco Famicom version.  These may be too late to be that version, but it's not outside the realm of possibility...

Edited May 11, 2022 by the_wizard_666

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

1 minute ago, the_wizard_666 said:

It's getting better, though my future is a bit dim at the moment.  I'll figure it out though.  My interest is getting rekindled though...just tinkering with it is making me want to do more of this kind of thing.  Maybe I'll try learning to muck with code again...been so long, and I did enjoy it...just gotta get my living space in order first.

Developers in high demand, I hired 2 today. I learned you literally have to offer the job before hanging up the video call or else they won't last another day.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

14 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Developers in high demand, I hired 2 today. I learned you literally have to offer the job before hanging up the video call or else they won't last another day.

So basically get to learnin'

Since I haven't coded much of anything since the early 2000s (I'd say around 20 years, give or take), where would you recommend I begin?  Not sure I wanna make a career per se, but it'd be nice to have the door open even if I don't go through it...and I know not all languages are useful in the real world

[Tanooki | 4,932]

Largely agreeing with your first reply, other than I don't think having it tied to a marketing campaign is entirely necessary either.  Dropping it either way, planned is a must, but not let word out ahead of time because you get those greedy crusaders who flip over not being able to control things.  You'll get a mix of responses, largely people would prefer it be out there, it doesn't diminish the value of the actual original prototype (which isn't owned anyway, it's stolen) or the hardware it rests on that doesn't change.  But some would rather like black market art dealing like to keep things hidden to a tight group of nearly none, out of the light, out of anyones hands so they can lord it over others or feel great quietly having something no one else can be damned the consequences.  There's a spectrum to it all.

Personally I lean towards fcgamer or what Cifaldi did with Sim City for the NES.  With SC there was a huge media blitz when it appeared, it was shared with all documentation, learning about it, all the info possibly gained and then presented as a website with multiple deeper documents to fiddle around with too.  The page fantastic with lots of images, the history and back story of it, but also the how it was found, how it went from A-Z, the recovery, etc.  It was a sweet piece of work, I feel this is how it should go, online digital museum.  It didn't suddenly make whoever owns it have a $10 piece of crap, the original is still worth the same hell of a lot of money if not more now that more people are aware and could try and bid it out of some owners hands.

[Ferris Bueller | 495]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

Personally I lean towards fcgamer or what Cifaldi did with Sim City for the NES.  With SC there was a huge media blitz when it appeared, it was shared with all documentation, learning about it, all the info possibly gained and then presented as a website with multiple deeper documents to fiddle around with too.  The page fantastic with lots of images, the history and back story of it, but also the how it was found, how it went from A-Z, the recovery, etc.  It was a sweet piece of work, I feel this is how it should go, online digital museum.  It didn't suddenly make whoever owns it have a $10 piece of crap, the original is still worth the same hell of a lot of money if not more now that more people are aware and could try and bid it out of some owners hands.

You're welcome.  

[Tanooki | 4,932]

I know I know, I've read the papers and documentation of the cobbled together manual and notes on the incomplete and could be hacked to complete bits that's on the fringe of making it a final release.  It was most fantastically handled.

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

23 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

So basically get to learnin'

Since I haven't coded much of anything since the early 2000s (I'd say around 20 years, give or take), where would you recommend I begin?  Not sure I wanna make a career per se, but it'd be nice to have the door open even if I don't go through it...and I know not all languages are useful in the real world

Quick learn, quick reward? Python, React.js, C++

[Sumez | 2,941]

On 5/10/2022 at 10:50 PM, DarkTone said:

I only know a few pros and cons, but there are a lot of people here with years of collecting experience, and wanted to hear what you think.

What exactly are the cons against dumping a prototype?

I agree with @DefaultGen that every piece of undumped rom really isn't some sort of critical video game history. But at the same time, a lot of prototypes are probably interesting to someone, and there's always a risk of something being in there that you might not be aware of. Is there really any good reason to be act like stubborn mule about it?

[Alder | 243]

I've never owned a prototype, but I love the idea of dumping any unreleased builds, just from a game design perspective. Yeah, sometimes that's just updating copyright information or fixing a typo, which is pretty boring. But I like seeing how bugs were fixed in later revisions, and prototypes are like going backwards on that timescale. It's a snapshot into the game's development history. Even as a kid, I always liked using a cheat device or glitch or something to look at unused levels and other content.

8 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Quick learn, quick reward? Python, React.js, C++

This, but swap out C++ for Java or C#.

[DarkTone | 984]

7 hours ago, Sumez said:

What exactly are the cons against dumping a prototype?

I agree with @DefaultGen that every piece of undumped rom really isn't some sort of critical video game history. But at the same time, a lot of prototypes are probably interesting to someone, and there's always a risk of something being in there that you might not be aware of. Is there really any good reason to be act like stubborn mule about it?

There were a few on nintendoage who argued against it. Trying to remember the disagreements. 

[Tanooki | 4,932]

I remember it vaguely, I think it centered around basically self interest protectionism as it was people who had numbers of them or friends of them looking to guard an investment irrationally thinking it would devalue them into the toilet.