AirVillain

As others have said.... I've experienced the "worst" with Street Fighter II/Turbo. While I don't have any concrete "evidence" there's plenty of time the computer does something that's IMPOSSIBLE. A charge move, fast recovery, etc. There's a Street FIghter II "Arcade 1-Up" machine at work that I started to play.... I assume the programming is the same from the arcade cabinets? Well... when I first started playing it I was getting SHIT KICKED by everyone, and couldn't make it past about the 4th round, if that. Computer was constantly hitting me was crazy combos and impossible moves. I eventually realized I needed to change my fighting style in order to get anywhere. Generally I play a pretty aggressive style, especially if I am playing against some friends and beating them, haha. But this wasn't working, and I had to take a much more defensive approach. Each fighter requires a slightly different strategy as well.... I've since been able to beat the game (1CC as well) but there are still plenty of moments when the computer does shit that catches me off guard. (Ken with multiple uppercuts, Sagat with the same thing)

I have been sleeping on this thread HARD. Yeesh... didn't even know it was possible. AND there's a Battletoads infinite health code? Jesus. Great work everyone. Followed.

Neat! Like... literally. Whild.... so each of those cases has games from different systems in it corresponding with the controllers on top? Then... you have those two systems running to the arcade machine as well? And that arcade machine... you built? WHILD. ... also that NES Advantage does look cool. Carbon fiber? Never even heard of it.... custom deal? Neat either way! I effing LOVE my NES Advantage. I use it for most/all shooters. SO happy I found a couple for the SNES as well. Third party, though. I think you've got the same one there... I think it's called the "Turbo Fighter Stick" or something...? Carbon/grey as well. Haha.... Still works great. Also, this is not the room to be eating ketchup chips and drinking fruit punch in. Just out of pure curiosity as well... and of course you don't have to bother answering.... this is your "Arcade"....? But do you have a "Console Corner" or you just love the Arcade gaming? Haha, no shade either way... just curious because this is clearly branded as the "Arcade" I guess you did state this is the "game corner". Haha... so radical, though. You love the arcade style, so you made all the consoles INTO an arcade style. If I'm understanding correctly.

Yes, I find that fascinating. I was just saying I don't try to beat a ship with the Frog suit too often because of how awkwardly it handles on the land, so getting to the king with the Frog suit is much more annoying. I just find it hilarious.... The King just sitting there thanking a Frog. Damn Frog stealing Mario's credit! Not a silly thing.... Great input! Haha, that's funny. I mean, it kinda makes sense.... especially for a kid. I can't recall ever ever really questioning the Lost Levels too much. I think we thought it was literally that.... "lost"/unused levels from SMB. I did wonder why Mario was holding up his hand with a "Peace" sign, though.... "Trying"....? Seriously, though.... I just wasn't sure on the netiquette of it, haha. "Needed" to quote all the people, so I just went for it. I guess the "proper" netiquette is just to shut up a bit and not type so much??? Hahaha.... that's hard for me. As you know/pointed out.

Interesting. I agree that the game isn't THAT difficult, and the Leaf is an easy way to glide through the game. But maybe some others, less skilled babies, DO use it? I mean, it's kinda handy in levels with spikes and ghosts, those weird multi-coloured circles that float around, etc. But you gotta kind be good AND fucking around to kill that shit.... so.... yeah, I get it. As a child I LOVED the Tanooki Suit because it was 1) an upgraded leaf and 2) so "elusive". Since I (obviously? And rightfully so) loved the Leaf, getting the Tanooki Suit was like an extra fun bonus. Hitting a giant block and seeing that little raccoon suit bounce around the screen was so incredible. Of course the functionality of the statue is limited, and I mostly would just used the statue in the pipe you use to go across the map in World 5. So using it as a kid was kinda useless, I don't recall using it very effectively. Okay... I STILL love the Tanooki Suit. Definitely #1 for me in ALL suits ever in SMB. Not for it's use in the game, but just the nostalgia and fun variety of things you can do with it now as an adult. Like.... One of the things I'll do the "most" is throw in SMB3 and try to beat World 5 ship with a Tanooki Suit (as opposed to "beating" the game with whistles, or playing a few levels of the first/whatever world). I fucking LOVE that shit when the king thanks you and says something different because you got the Tanooki Suit on (*No Spoilers ). The Frog suit is one I don't try too often because of how annoying it is on land, haha. Nah man, haha, I appreciate the discourse. I get what you're saying and I pretty much agree with everything you're saying. It just mostly boils down to semantics and what each of us "mean". More below. 1) No doubt, but if Howard had greenlit the OG SMB2 then it (probably most likely with almost 100% certainty?) would have been a go for the North American market and we would have gotten purple death mushrooms? SO SMB2USA simply wouldn't exist if he had liked the first sequel from the disk system. 2) Just saying... SMB2USA wasn't the original, or intended, sequel to SMB. 3) Yes, agreed 100%. They (Nintendo when developing Doki) had to use "Mario-like" game elements to make it more fun, so they used what worked before with SMB. This is not surprising and smart of them. 4) It's totally "fair to bring up SMB2", but it's not the conversation we're having. Why? Because it plays like a completely different game. So inherently (in my view in which this thread was created), it's not the same style/type of game as SMB, SMB3, or SMW. So yeah.... you could bring it up, but as far as I'm concerned it's SO FAR behind both, it's not even in the same conversation. Which is why SMB2USA was not mentioned ONCE in my original post. The "reasons" why SMB2USA was "different" have been discussed, and it's pretty clear WHY it plays so differently and why it wouldn't be "in the same conversation" as mentioned. This I believe to be a worthy and beneficial part of the discussion, though, because it just amplifies the reason why the discussion would be SMB3 vs SMW. As you mentioned, SMB2USA was created completely independently of SMB1-3, given the timeline, etc. And if the "technical upgrades" to the sprites is your best reasoning for thinking it should be discussed then that proves my point. As I so obviously made clear with my "Mario is wearing BLACK pants in SMB3!?!!!?!??" NA thread (I don't expect you to remember this), the sprites are less impactful for me than the gameplay itself. Sure, SMB2USA has "better" graphics than SMB3, but the gameplay is far inferior. I've felt that since I was a kid. SMB2USA is much slower (than SMB, SMB3, & SMW) and has MANY elements that are unique to it (vertical levels, digging, style of boss battles... biggest clearly being the vertical levels "slowing things down") that make it "feel" "different". If someone thinks SMB2USA is a "better" game than SMB3/SMW then that's fine. Just not my jam (hence the thread ) Agreed and very well said. I just enjoy it (the conversation) because we get to "dig deeper" into the games' history/our love for the games. We all have different experiences with each NES game, and the Super Mario series on NES lends itself to a fun discussion because of the discussed "differences" between the 3 games. That combined with our each individual history/preferences for the games lends itself to a fun discussion. I feel it gives us each a chance to discuss how we feel and get into the semantics of using the words "real" and "the" and "a" to describe a video game. So... for example: I find it fascinating that Skinny will be like "MARIO is a fake Mario game " and others will be like "of course SMB2USA is a Mario game". And me... I'll be like "Well, yes, SMB2USA is a real Mario game as released by Nintendo, but it wasn't the original sequel they created and wouldn't exist if it wasn't for this cool guy who worked at Nintendo America, so it plays kinda differently and not really like SMB, SMB3, or SMW." Like... I think we're all correct in our own context of what we are saying.

Okay... Pardon me. DefaultGen brought up Die Hard, but you asked me this very specific question: Ssssoooo..... I answered it. To the second part.... Call it a "qualifier" or whatever you like. Was SMB2USA "a" sequel for SMB? Yes, I agree with you, it was. But I present you these 4 questions: 1) Would SMB2USA exist if Howard Philips didn't shoot down the original sequel for SMB? No. 2) Was SMB2USA the original and intended sequel for SMB? No. 3) Was Doki Doki Panic created to be a "Mario" game? No. 4) Does SMB2USA belong in the same conversation as SMB3 vs SMW? No. These are all important facts. When Skinny has a random lady at work telling him “I don’t like smb2 it so different it doesn’t even seem like the same game”.... that's some pretty solid conversational hearsay. Pretty solid evidence indeed.

Hahaha, excellent points. Clearly was incorrect on the writing/directing aspect of Star Wars. I was more thinking of the "overall vision" aspect to it as you mentioned later. The point was that one person (George Lucas) had a story in mind for the first series (4, 5, 6). Maybe he didn't.... I'm not THAT huge into Star Wars. I was under the impression that George had made the first film as a one-off, but still had a series in mind....? IF THAT IS NOT THE CASE.... then I'll just use a generic example: If a writer creates a book/TV Show/Film.... And I enjoyed that piece of work, then if were to want to experience the sequel, I would hope that it's done by that same person/team. If not, then it can still be "good", but I just think if it's done by the OG crew it has a better chance of being "authentic" as opposed to just trying to capitalize on a hit (which it likely is that as well). Maybe that explains myself a bit better.... without using such a shitty example. But that same developer, same producer & director, same credited programmer, and same composer were not making the sequel to Super Mario Bros when they made Doki Doki Panic. They already made the sequel for SMB on the Famicom disk system. So if we are using the movie analogy, it's like all those people made a new space movie after Star Wars was released using the same elements that made it a hit, but released it in Japan with Japanese Dream Factory characters. Then when George Lucas needed a sequel to Star Wars he took the Japanese film and re-edited it, changed the characters, and released it in North America as a sequel to Star Wars. You brought up the Die Hard example, not me. So yes, SMB2 USA was created by the same team as SMB. And SMB2 USA is a great game. However, SMB2USA wasn't THE (first/intended) sequel for SMB. I believe all those statements to be true. Here we go. Back at it with some MEAT! Now I will certainly agree that Feather controls like shit. The worst flying power-up between all the games. Yeah, I said it. And I also avoid getting Yoshi. Big clunky sprite is VERY accurate. Also, I'm annoyed by the little addition the the music. The funky little beat switch is neat, but it gets too repetitive. I only use Yoshi when I need him. But for the Leaf... are we just leaving the Tanooki Suit out of this as it's CLEARLY just the greatest power-up ever and the Cape simply isn't even in the same category??? Because Tanooki Suit IS better than the Leaf. I understand that's inherent in it's statue powers. So maybe it's too overpowered to be considered part of the conversation? Nobody puts Leaf in the corner! Haha... I mean... Feather is okay, I guess... but comparatively I think it (Feather) is pretty shitty. When you are flying with the Feather and get hit, yeah you just fluff off, but the control of flying is so awkward.... I don't want to dip, I want to go UP! So yeah, the high jump with the cape is neat, but the up and down required from the cape I think makes it less functional. You couldn't do that tricky level from SMB3 in World 6, confirmed level 5, with the cape. So an awesomely fun level like that would be impossible. You need Yoshi and a blue shell to fly for stuff like that in SMW. Why do we have to rely on our dinosaur pal to help us along? Can't do it ourselves??? Why is the Feather not powerful enough to help us? And how do we feel about the Tanooki Suit? It's the G.O.A.T.... clearly. But yeah... very insulting of Skinny to imply that you would run away from a boomerang guy. The nerve! So very disrespectful. Ps. @T-Pac I think the Yoshi with Leaf Tail could certainly help!

Dang! Even Amex got their cut of that $3 Moga Man Z.

Don't collect myself, but I certainly can appreciate them. Neat!

NES, BAM. Was there ever any doubt? Of course, the second highest option is the general "I don't have a particular system I collect for" which I think would include NES almost 100% of the time. As previously stated NES is king. Although I have (almost) all the games I want for it, I'm still not going out of my way to find stuff for other systems. SNES and N64 I have for historical reasons, but aren't quite to the same level of love for NES, so NES would be the "bulk" of my "collection." The other systems I do have are mostly just cherry picked for a few games they have. SMS for Wonder Boy. Turbo Grafx for Bonk's Adventure....

Can't pass that up. Great find. Surprised you didn't haggle down to a Toonie.

Missed commenting on these as well... Well you don't need to take your anger for others out on me. Like the_wizard said.... we're just having fun here, it doesn't need to be so serious. Please see my comments above re: what I "mean". I'm not sitting here making SMB2 out to be a black sheep, haha... I'm just pointing out the facts and have repeatedly said I enjoy playing SMB2 USA. It is you who is revising my history and taking from it what you want. The reason why the discussion of SMB2 belongs along with SMB3 vs. SMW thread is very obvious. It actually proves my point. The fact that the original thread is NOT SMB2 USA vs. SMB3 vs. SMW tells the whole story. SMB2 USA doesn't belong in the same conversation because it's a DIFFERENT STYLE OF GAME. So as a result, as stated by the_wizard... "There's a pretty civil discussion happening here, with fun information and interesting discourse all around." around the reason of "why" SMB2 would not be included in such a comparison or discussion. So it's very relevant to the conversation and I think a worthy conversational add-on to the SMB3 vs. SMW conversation. Excellent input. Very well said. This is part of the reason why I made this thread.... to understand better why others would pick SMW. I believe I've already stated next time I play I will be a bit more aware of some of these reasons and give them a bit more "love". But just shows that two people can have the same/opposite reasons of liking one game vs. the other. For example.... you said "I think the lower difficulty is definitely a contributing factor as I enjoy having a more chill and relaxed time when playing it" but for me that's a reason why I like SMB3. But I also think that both are equally valid for both of us! As I said to the_wizard, the variety of video games is what makes them great. If you have more reasoning on SMW please let us know, haha. I mean, shit.... that's what this place is. It's a Video Game Trust Tree.... a place where you can share your feelings without judgment. Well... depends how riled up we are, haha.

Please see below for clarification. But I think you're correct in many ways. Very well said, thank you. Haha, just was curious. But great points and great input. I think it brings up a great point about "game style" and personal preference. You gravitated more towards SMB2 USA/Castlevania II because it was more your "style". I gravitated more towards SMB1/3 because they're more MY style. I think both are equally valid! That's of course, why video games are so fun... the variety. I still love playing SMB2USA, don't get me wrong, but I certainly prefer the "go right" games and just enjoy "smashing" through games, ala Contra for example. I definitely agree with you on looking at SMB2USA from the perspective as a side story, and no matter how you look at it, it IS a good game and does deserve to be known as "part of the series". But see below for more clarification because I think Link and I have been talking mostly semantics this whole time. Well when it comes to Die Hard, I don't really care about he canon/storytelling enough to make a decision either way. But for movies in general, if I really love a film and there's a sequel most times it is more ideal to have the original writer/director/crew involved. Of course there are plenty of examples of good sequels that are written by different people, but I think the ones that are from the same writer/director have the potential to be more "authentic", especially if the writer/director had a larger story in mind. (ex. George Lucas w/ Star Wars. Hefty example to use, I know, haha) But you bring up a good point, one that I tried to clear up earlier, about semantics and what we're "actually talking about". The only difference between "true" and "real" and "does belong" is the context we use them in and what we are intended to "mean". So, to be clear... what I'm saying is this: SMB2 USA was not THE sequel for SMB and, as such, has a different "feel" to it and plays differently than others in the series on NES. Emphasis on the word "the". It was NOT created as the sequel for SMB (as we know that game was created for the Famicom Disk System and was sent to HP for review). I agree it was A sequel created for SMB. This does NOT mean I don't think SMB2 USA "belongs" in the Super Mario NES/Nintendo Series. It's a great game, it's got great characters, and it was certainly released in North America, and introduced to myself, as a "Mario game". So, yeah, it belongs in the series. Personally I don't feel SMB USA being Doki Doki panic "takes anything away" from it, but it does explain why I thought it was a bit "different" when I was a kid. So I think in the end all we are really discussing is semantics, so we just need to 1) use the same terminology or 2) understand what each other mean when they say certain words. Hopefully my above statements helped clarify. And although I love Skinny's gumption, I wouldn't quite go that far. But I do agree he makes all very good points. I think, like me, he enjoys having fun getting all riled up over this stuff for some fun discussion.

Okay.... but for games we've played the Game Genie on.... we're good, right??? PLEASE. I need it for Amagon.

Haha, man.... You really gotta find a way to chill. You are taking this way too seriously. Troll? I'd feel insulted if it wasn't funny. I have better things to do than sit here and try to get you riled up. This IS a discussion, but if you want to argue and get all worked up, then so be it... Okay, if the makers have stated what's what in their interviews, please send the reference. There's a few major reasons why I'm trying to understand "why" this game we know as SMB2 was different that the original sequel to SMB. The answers are replies to what Link has brought up. Read below if you'd like. Ah yes... I thought "haha, jokes" seemed familiar. You're correct to understand it means I'm not being THAT forceful/serious about it/other conversations here. But in this case I'm not "being the devil's advocate." Please see the end for clarification and "what I mean." To start, though.... If you're saying that "a proof of concept for how a vertically scrolling Mario-like game could work" is the same as "building a vertically scrolling Mario game to be released as the sequel for SMB", then I guess you are correct. I think they are two different things. Yes, the prototype was created to show how a "Mario-style" game could work, but it wasn't being created to be the sequel for SMB, it was just a concept looking to capitalize on how fun the SMB style game was.... which, as acknowledged by everyone here, when Miyamoto saw the prototype he suggested to add more Mario elements to make it fun. The direction was NOT "make it into a Mario game so it can be the sequel to our hugely successful SMB game currently selling like gangbusters." because they already made a sequel...? For the Disk system. So yeah... They needed a game for the Dream Factory and they had the prototype and added Mario elements (Because SMB was a really fun game and people loved it and Miyamoto directed them to use Mario gameplay to make it more fun) and created Doki Doki panic. Even references as you pointed out. Yes... Yes. So it was super easy decision for them to use Doki when they needed a different SMB sequel for the North American Market.... I understand what you're saying that games in a series can be their own adventures, and that's cool. But what I'm saying is, especially gameplay wise, SMB2 USA is certainly an outlier. And we know now why the gameplay is not the same as SMB, the OG SMB2 from the Famicom Disk system, SMB3, and SMW. Even the "New" Super Mario Bros games on Wii/U don't have gameplay elements from SMB2USA. So it stands out when ONE game is different than every single other one. Even 1/4 if you just include NES/SNES. SMB2 USA stands out. Yeah, they have characters from SMB2 USA that have stayed in the series. Because it had great characters.... because the "Mario team" came up with them and made the re-skin and Doki . But it does bring up a good question. What are we even talking about here with SMB2? I'm not saying it's not a "legitimate entry in the the franchise" or "disrespecting it". And I wouldn't die on a hill saying "SMB2 isn't a 'real' Mario game" or "It doesn't belong!!!" .... and I do respect it, as I've stated I thoroughly enjoy the game. And yes, Howard Phillips deserves much praise, ESPECIALLY for this decision. I don't like the OG SMB2 nearly as much as SMB2 USA. He was 100% correct in his review of the OG SMB sequel. But the truth is that SMB2 USA was not the "true" sequel for SMB (as created and released by Nintendo) and without Howard Phillips it would never even exist. It's not a bad thing.... It's just how it worked out because they made the actual sequel way too hard and without enough improvement on the previous game (Aka Thank you Howard Philips ).

Gotcha on the math. You are definitely correct in what you're saying. We just look at it differently, frog dick making wizard-wise. Haha, fear vs. stability. I agree with what Dr. Morbis has said and your discussion since. It's not that I really don't think new games will be good. OF COURSE they will be good/great. Spider-Man 2 on Xbox was awesome (that's "new" example for me, haha) and I think this new Spider-Man 2 on Playstation 73 is similar...? Well.... there WILL be an awesome game that's similar at some point, so I DO look forward to that. So... I get it. But like Dr. Morbis said, the NES games are almost their own genre at this point. Sure, there will be new Mario and Contra games that are side scrolling platformers, etc. ("New Super Mario Bros. ), but with the new systems, and inherently in the game, it will "feel"/be different. And as mentioned, larger games like Elden Ring is on a whole other level of "video game", and just because someone, like myself, doesn't like to play them doesn't mean I'm old and crusty.... not all the time, anyways. You're not wrong about Wizard of Oz, haha. I just kinda had run with the example. But, it's on a lot of top 10 lists, I'm sure. Also, regarding which games are included, please see below. Yeah, good point.... I think it's been established that games you've just booted up to "test" or have only played a short period would be included in "games you've played before". So even if you choose "games you've played" from the frog-dick Wizard and if you haven't passed the first couple levels of a game, you can still go back and play it and the levels you haven't reached yet will be a "new" experience. This is part of my reasoning for this option, for sure. Even games I haven't beaten, still need to playthrough, or even just barely played just to "test" them and are on my backlog are included. So all that shit is new, but you still get to play your favorites and avoid the frog-dick. It's the best of (almost - aka excluding literally brand new games on new systems) all worlds. Does beg the question, though, @OptOut, what about the Game Genie? If we've used the Game Genie for a particular system, NES for example, are we able to use it for games that we've played before? Thus.... maybe being able to make it to later levels, play-though the entire game, experience "new" parts of the game??? Is that allowed? I mean.... If we've used the game genie on the system before that kinda counts as "playing it before"? Or do we draw the line on what INDIVIDUAL game we have used the Game Genie on before? I need answers from the frog-dick Wizard.

Haha, you nailed it pretty good. I thought so, hence my reply, but the "haha, jokes" at the end made me think maybe you thought "nah, AV really is just a dick." Haha... But you get it. The truth is that we know these games SO WELL and love the little intricacies of them, why NOT smash the discussions apart and REALLY break down the games and what we love about them? Or our histories with them? Or whether one "should be included" or other meaningless semantic arguments? I find it very interesting... and fun. Back to the discussion: I understand what you're saying about games being programmed with no specific IP in mind. Have you got any references for this: "it was a Mario project, before it was Doki Doki Panic."? Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious where it was stated before. The previously supplied "deep dive"/youtube video showed the OG prototype, which was neat.... Somewhat of a different account as Gaming Historian does say that Kensuke Tanabe came up with that idea. But regardless, there's lots of good information in there I think we can trust here: These are my major takeaways: *Nintendo made Super Mario Bros 2. in Japan and released it for a new disk system, was the best selling game on that system, which they wanted to use going forward. *A prototype that had gotten shelved because it wasn't fun enough, but later was used to make Doki Doki Panic (By the some of the Mario team, which they put in Mario references, and used game elements like side scrolling that made Mario fun to make it fun... which at one point Miyamoto thought it was too similar.) and released it. *Nintendo wanted to release the sequel to Super Mario Bros in North America and sent the one they made for the disk system to Howard Philips. He turned down the game when he played it because it was too difficult/annoying/too similar. *So, Nintendo of American "needed" a sequel for SMB, so they decided to "remake"/re-work a gamethat was already complete (not a new concept as pointed out) so they looked through their library and thought Doki Doki Panic would work. They sent it to Howard Philips with a note about switching the characters. He accepted and Nintendo in Japan re-made the game with Mario characters/references. I mean... I get what you're saying... but in this case because a trilogy was created in Japan for Super Mario Bros, which those players played and loved, and the second one is different in North America speaks for itself. Super Mario Bros 3 was released in Japan like 2 weeks after our SMB2 was released in North America. And SMB3 was a continuation of which game...? Super Mario Bros (incl 2 in Japan)? Or SMB2USA as we know it? "Act that way", haha... Man you gotta take it easy a little bit and lighten up. You wanna justify any "shots fired", haha, go ahead. It's not that serious to me, but if you want to be a D-bag be my guest. I'm just having a discussion. If you'd like to provide references to show where I'm "clearly wrong" then I'll gladly look at them. I like to learn. Nobody is re-writing history, we're discussing it: We are simply discussing one of the greatest trilogy of games in history and how they came to be. Haha, I legitimately LOL'd when I saw this. Haha, nailed it!! I get it and it's a very valid point. Please see above re: SMB2 USA development. You're right, and in a lot of ways I agree. The final product of SMB (USA) is really fun. When I feel like playing SMB2, I don't give a shit who made it, or why. It's a good game. But in the context of a conversation like this, as stated above, I think we can break it down further and "go down the rabbit hole" so to speak and discuss the game on a deeper level.

Great conversation here. This is genuinely confusing. I'm saying programmed, as in created on a computer, etc. to create a video game. (Of course SMB2 was released as a Mario game.) It's pretty well documented that neither the vertical scrolling prototype, nor the promotional game made for the Dream factory deal were "Mario games". They were, as stated, a prototype and a game made with COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CHARACTERS. I don't understand how that's a Mario game. Also, please see comments at the end re: Howard Philips. Had Howard Philips approved the sequel that was originally sent to him then the SMB2 that we know literally would not exist. That does not sound like it was "indeed programmed as a Mario game before it was associated with any other property." Literally the exact opposite. Doki Doki Panic re-skin. Exactly. It's really not much more complicated than that. I'm also confused, please see above. Genuinely can't tell if this is trolling or not, haha. But, I'm not afraid to admit you make great points about SMB2. Do those points make it the "only" good Mario game, I don't think so, but they definitely make it a good game. What's your deal, man? Haha... why are you taking personal shots at me for a discussion about video games??? I don't appreciate the assumptions about the incompetence and medication. Not super friendly things to say, haha. Tell me what you think of me? Haha, go for it, bud! I'm a big boy, I can handle the truth. We are talking about 30 year old video games here, man. No need to try to make it personal. Settle down. Did you just bleep out "stupid" because you are calling me stupid but didn't want to be THAT rude? Well... you can call me stupid and insult my intelligence all you want, I don't need to justify my intelligence to you, especially when you are saying those things based on my discussion about VIDEO GAMES. Again... settle that little tea kettle of yours, pal. Well fuck... what are we doing here? If we can't get riled up and have a little fun while we have a good discussion about the video games we know and love then what are we doing??? Not sure why people take this shit so seriously, haha. But my points all still stand, exaggerations/intensity or not. Nobody gives a shit about it, other than Tanooki apparently, in real life. Everything you just said was correct. Nobody I knew hated it as a kid, although we did recognize it was "different". But we still played the shit out of it. But, that was also because the nature of the system/situation. Most people only had a handful of games, so you played what you had. Anyways.... I certainly don't take this whole deal too seriously in the grand scheme of life. But when we are on a forum discussing the very fabric of video game reality, then of course it matters "whether it was originally Mario or not". IT. MATTERS. I guess that's a matter of your opinion. I think SMB3 is better for a variety of reasons, least of which is quantity. In fact, it's mostly/all quality reasoning. Regarding SMB2... it's not a "joke" and no one is trying to be an "edgy scrub" as someone said before. SMB2 just started as a different game.... it's really not super complicated. Nintendo made a legitimate sequel in Japan, sent it to Howard Philips in USA and he rejected it. Had Howard approved it there would have been no need to re-skin Doki Doki panic, and we would have gotten the same game Japan got and SMB2 as we know it wouldn't even exist. Why isn't this being taken into consideration?

The capitalization/non-capitalization is not used to lend credence to my argument, it's to mock what you said about your math comments. Because here's the thing about that: There is 100% you KNOW that the games you've played are great. There is a 0% chance that you know with 100% certainty that a game in the future will be "better" than those games you have already played. Those are straight math facts, homey. I understand what you're saying, I really do. But you're letting your own personal preferences get in the way of the point. Yeah... there are new games coming out that are pushing your old faves down the list. That's YOUR math. The REALITY of the math is gambling on the future, which is in itself, impossible. What we're talking about is hedging our bets against a frog-dick making evil Wizard. I'm not taking any chances with that. Playing the "you must be getting old" card, eh??? Haha.... Yes... Yes, I am. But that's not why I don't care about buying the new X Box Square Thunderbolt, or PS84. I know that's what the kids are calling them these days. It's just not my jam. And according the MATH of the poll, the majority here agrees. Well the Wizard of Oz is an amazing piece of art and it holds up very well. Not sure why you would lol. Trolling me with my own condescending voice on purpose...? Yeah... that was VERY clear. I mean, you're pretty matter fact in other places around here, but apologies if you took me too seriously or as being a dick... it happens sometimes if I'm just saying how I feel, and can't convey tone very well through text. And if you can't handle the truth about SMW, then you gotta steer clear of the thread... or else I just might tell you what's up. Facts are facts, mang. SMW isn't great when you compare it to SMB3, and you can't know for sure if future games will be as good as those in the past. FACTS. I get it. Please see math facts above. Haha, I know Wizard of Oz was a stretch of an example (maybe something like Casablanca would fit too) but it's still a solid movie. (EPIC scene/line) Yeah buddy.... your top 10. You going to give them ALL up just to get ONE new game to get to the top 10? So let's say you get a couple new games in there... even 3! That's a lot. But... it's still 4 less than you would have if you kept the games you already knew/played. So... if you take the gamble, chances are you're only going to find 3 games that could make your top 10, but if you DIDN'T take the gamble, you'd still have 7 games. A difference of 4 games. I'd take the 7 over 3 any day. Plus, this does not account for ranking. Sure, the 3 games will take down some games, but will they take the #1-3 spot???? That's even less likely. MORE MATH FACTS HOMEY! Koopa gets it.

I'm not using any straw man arguments here... You've been saying this whole time that "art keeps getting better" and blah blah, blah... IMPLYING that anything older CAN'T be better, so to come in now to say something different is not a good representation of your previous arguments. So now, yeah, of course you can come in with your condescending "Math and history ain't on your side" bullshit because you've changed what you're saying, haha. So if your favourite game is from 1991, your math and history telling you there will FOR SURE be a "better" game, that you like more, come out before you die because "That'S hOw MAtH wOrKS"??? Okay, then... I guess that game from 1991 isn't that good. Yeah, but that's a different situation entirely. It's a specific example of a comparison of two games. You are blanketing the ENTIRE VIDEO GAME/ART world with your comments. As stated: Your entire argument up until now has been "it's newer so it has to be better". This is the truth right here: You're favourite game is from 1991. There is literally NO WAY to know with 100% certainty that a new game will come out in the future that you will like that much/better. It's impossoble for you to know that. IT. IS. IMPOSSIBLE. There is a 0% chance that you can know that. But you know what IS possible? It IS possible that you already know what your favourite game is. You've already stated that it's the game from 1991. That you know with 100% certainty. So you know from your history with this game, and are 100% certain right now that it is your favourite game. So, I'll ask you... if you change that, and take the unknown that the future holds, why do you think math and history are on your side? Haha, yeah good point on the DD2. But my point still stands! The game is good enough to stand on its own. Slightly irrelevant to my argument as well. They (DD or DD3) could be used in other people arguments interchangebly I'm sure. Point is: The bar is high. And as just stated: We know with 100% certainty with one option, and the other we can't know. So, I'm going to take the one with certainty... again... especially when SMB3 is involved.

Haha... what are you even talking about here, man? Die on a cross of misinformation???? Hahaha, Jesus... That video shared by Link, which was the basis of the "misinformation" says the prototype was made by "Nintendo's partner Systems Research & Development" and PRESENTED to Shigeru Miyamoto and Kensuke Tanabe.... which is when Miyamoto suggested they add side-scrolling Mario type elements. Sssssssssssssssoooooooooooo.....????? SRD is also listed as "partner" here: https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/SRD Besides that, though.... NO MATTER WHO PROGRAMMED IT (group inside/outside Nintendo), it was surely NOT Miyamoto and Kensuke Tanabe (aka the SMB team) as you so claim.... So who is looking to die on what cross??? I find it funny how you want to make this so complicated, when it's pretty straightforward timeline (clearly presented in the video by Link): *SMB is a big hit *Upward scrolling prototype gets made, presented to Ninendo, and Tanabe and Miyamoto turn it down but Miyamoto tells them to add Mario elements. *SMB2 Japan is released and is another hit. *Nintendo has partnership with Dream Factory festival and needs to create a game. Doki Doki Panic gets made based on the SRD prototype and to make it more interesting they take aspects from their wildly successful SMB game. *SMB2 sequel gets sent to Howard Phillips and he shits all lover it and sends it back. *Miyamoto and his team re-skin Doki Doki Panic with Mario characters and send it back to Howard Phillips. HOW IS THAT SO COMPLICATED???? It's really not that complicated. It (SMB2) just simply wasn't programmed as a Mario game to being with. It's really just that simple.

But... that IS the point. Reed's saying that because a game/art is made later that it's "better", when that's not necessarily true. This conclusion you are drawing is based on some pretty heavy assumptions.... I can agree that there will be excellent games that come out, but to so confidentially say they will be "equally or even better than older games." is the stretch... and a gamble I'm unwilling to take. Please see below re: Wizard of Oz vs. Psycho... Okay, so this is , of course, technically true. The same can be said for a host (all?) of games on the Atari. BUT.... If we're talking about Wizard of Oz, or DD2/Contra/Battletoads then that's a fair comparison. BECAUSE LISTEN TO THIS: No matter how "good" or "how much better" a new movie is, it will NEVER EVER be as good as The Wizard of Oz. Same can be said about DD2, Contra, or Battletoads. No matter how "good" a new game is that comes out, it can NEVER be as good as DD2/Contra/BT because they were FIRST and they ARE the bar inwhich all other games will be judged. We are not judging all future games off Atari or pong... no... we're judging them off the REAL OG's. Since these games were the GOAT's first, this means they are CATEGORICALLY "better" than anything to come. It's like comparing Lebron and Michael. You can't. Michael came first, he'll always be the GOAT. And so, moving forward, you're going to be always chasing perfection.... which.... can never come. It's like people who get addicted to heroine/meth/Oxycontin... they are chasing the first/best high they got. I don't ever want to search for a game as good as SMB3.... NOTHING can ever live up, it's literally impossible. Fun...? Are we supposed to be having fun??? Haha, jokes... Yeah, it's all just fun for me. Of course the results are skewed by the forum, haha.... But that's what makes it even more funny to me. Of course we don't want to give up SMB3, good God man! I agree, though, in terms of the voting and the way someone else wants to enjoy their games, I don't think anyone is wrong. If someone wanted to take the frog dick life, then hey... you do you! The issue is when people (*coughs @Reed Rothchild ) start throwing around the term "better". THAT'S where we have an issue. That's where someone can be "wrong". Sometimes I WISH I liked some of the other games other people did (FPS', for example.... people are being paid to play that shit, and I'm just not interested) but at the end of the day there's just some games I just don't like. I also appreciate the civilized debate. And we get little nuggets like someone being surprised someone likes Wizard of Oz over a Star Wars movie. Brick... Not everyone likes sci-fi movies with cheesy dialogue and explosions. Wait... WoO is kind of a sci-fi movie? And there are explosions?

Good questions.... Depends on the game/situation. If it's a game I know I can beat, or know I have a pretty good chance of beating then I want to win and smash that shit. I hate losing. Ex. Contra, Double Dragon II. I expect to beat those games each time I play and any less is not acceptable. Some other games I'll just throw in to play and don't care how far I get/how much I play.

Me when I see this thread getting some action... Watched the video. Well done. Well produced. However, I didn't quite get that from it. Still.... Some random company (NOT Nintendo) made a prototype using the UPWARD scrolling and stacking blocks function and showed it to Nintendo (Miyamoto) and he said to make it better they should add side scrolling elements like Mario. So later, the Mario team at Nintendo did exactly that for the promotional game. Then changed the characters later to make it into a Mario game. Sounds like a not-Mario game prototype, made by not-Nintendo, got taken by Nintendo and made into a promotional game by the Mario team by adding side-scrolling "Mario-style elements" & promotional logo's/etc. which then got made into a Mario game by inserting Mario characters/items by that same Mario team. SO... IN CONCLUSION: The reason why SMB2 isn't a true sequel is because 1) It wasn't the true sequel to begin with and was created out of necessity for the North American Market and 2) it's OG function and design of stacking blocks and UPWARD scrolling was designed OUTSIDE Nintendo, and not a "true" game function from the OG Super Mario game (the game in which this "sequel" is based on). So when they brought that prototype into Nintendo the Mario team took that concept and made it better by adding the Mario game elements, improving it, and made it into a playable game for the Dream Factory festival, then eventually adding the Mario characters out of NECESSITY later. @docile tapeworm What do you think about how this is worded? Well I suppose that depends what "one sitting" means to you.... But Jesus... You're really limiting yourself... for no reason. Like, if the game is good, then who cares if can be "completed in one sitting" or not? Just because you can't beat it in this one magical sitting, you're just going to throw it in the trash and stop playing it forever? I mean, I KNOW the vast majority of NES games are meant to be played in one go, but some take a touch of time *coughs SMB3* to complete. So out of pure curiosity, and for the sake of science/this thread, are you spending a couple hours to complete SMB3, or is that too long for you?

No, but this does not categorically make any new art "better" than old art.