General Sealed & Graded Discussion

[AdamW | 713]

@SethAI'm not sure a lot of people place as much weight on the words "near mint" as you do. I personally just look at the numbers. It doesn't mean anything much to me what range VGA or WATA choose to describe as "near mint", I'm much more interested in "what an 80 looks like", "what an 85+ looks like", "what a 9.2 looks like" etc.

Now when two 9.6s don't look anything like each other and have significantly different amounts of dead flies trapped in the case, that starts to be a problem...:D

[Seth | 166]

1 hour ago, AdamW said:

@SethAI'm not sure a lot of people place as much weight on the words "near mint" as you do. I personally just look at the numbers. It doesn't mean anything much to me what range VGA or WATA choose to describe as "near mint", I'm much more interested in "what an 80 looks like", "what an 85+ looks like", "what a 9.2 looks like" etc.

Now when two 9.6s don't look anything like each other and have significantly different amounts of dead flies trapped in the case, that starts to be a problem...:D

I'm not sure what made you think I rely on words rather than my own eyeballs?

My point was that, assuming an error has not been made by either VGA or WATA with the identical game titles in question, in my (eyeball) experience a 75+ VGA looks like and is equivalent to a 9.0/A from WATA. And if WATA has made a mistake while VGA has not, or if VGA has graded too strictly while WATA has done "typical" work—both of which happen frequently enough—a 75+ looks like and is equivalent to a WATA 9.2/A+ under the eyeball test you and I both use.

I literally just got a 75+ (EX+/NM) in the mail that looks identical to some of my WATA 9.2/A+ (NM) sealed boxes or my best WATA 9.0/A (VF/NM) sealed boxes—which is consistent with (1) the official, listed "conditions" of each (EX+/NM = VF/NM), and (2) the fact that VGA is a more responsible and consistent grader.

Are there exceptions? Sure. Just Press Play has a dogsh*t 80 Xexyz (NES) on eBay right now—which is a damn shame, because I love that game and am looking for a reasonably priced copy—while the instances of WATA 9.0/A sealed boxes being actually 8.5 or 8.0 As or even B-pluses are so legion I don't feel compelled to pick one example. But my point stands; the WATA fanboys telling everyone that VGA Gold Tier equates to 9.0/A or above are... well, not kidding themselves, as I think that'd be merely an accusation of self-delusion... but actually lying to us buyers. I credit Jonas McCammon for being honest about this, even if WATA was using his article on crossovers to make a tangential (but to them critical) point: VGA holders should always cross over to WATA if they plan to resell, because their 75-85 VGA games will be 9.0-range WATA games in many instances, and psychologically buyers are susceptible to that bait-and-switch. (Which has nothing to do with the eyeball test and everything to do with how we process the numbers "8" and "9" in 10-/100-point grading scales.)

Edited October 16, 2021 by RETRO

[AdamW | 713]

6 minutes ago, SethA said:

I'm not sure what made you think I rely on words rather than my own eyeballs?

All of this:

"We have to remember that all VGA games graded under 95 and over 70 are in "near-mint" range (from EX+/NM to NM/M). In practice, this means that over 80% of VGA games on the market are in the near-mint range *officially*—as you never really see a 95 or 100 VGA at market (and if you do, it's irrelevant to anyone but a millionaire) and candidly VGA games 70 and below often aren't at market either (and of those that are, maybe 90% are 70 or 60, which are both still EX or EX+).

Meanwhile, do the math: any WATA game under a 9.0 is *not* in the near-mint range definitionally—per WATA partner Heritage Auctions' official assessment—and even some of the 9.0 and 9.2 WATA boxes are *not* in the near-mint range because they have B+ seals"

That whole blob seemed to be about the words "near mint"...

[Seth | 166]

14 minutes ago, AdamW said:

All of this:

"We have to remember that all VGA games graded under 95 and over 70 are in "near-mint" range (from EX+/NM to NM/M). In practice, this means that over 80% of VGA games on the market are in the near-mint range *officially*—as you never really see a 95 or 100 VGA at market (and if you do, it's irrelevant to anyone but a millionaire) and candidly VGA games 70 and below often aren't at market either (and of those that are, maybe 90% are 70 or 60, which are both still EX or EX+).

Meanwhile, do the math: any WATA game under a 9.0 is *not* in the near-mint range definitionally—per WATA partner Heritage Auctions' official assessment—and even some of the 9.0 and 9.2 WATA boxes are *not* in the near-mint range because they have B+ seals"

That whole blob seemed to be about the words "near mint"...

I think your assumption is that the eyeball test rarely corresponds with the condition grade test, which is a view held mostly by those who don't collect graded games. As this is a conversation with many people in it who do collect graded games, me included, I was making the point in that "blob" that the eyeball and condition-grade tests often align well enough—which is why grading exists—so it's useful to understand what the condition-grade test should cause your eyeballs to expect. And what it should cause a buyer to expect is that a 75+ VGA will roughly conform to a 9.0/A WATA.

[Gulag Joe | 582]

2 hours ago, RETRO said:

I think your assumption is that the eyeball test rarely corresponds with the condition grade test, which is a view held mostly by those who don't collect graded games. As this is a conversation with many people in it who do collect graded games, me included, I was making the point in that "blob" that the eyeball and condition-grade tests often align well enough—which is why grading exists—so it's useful to understand what the condition-grade test should cause your eyeballs to expect. And what it should cause a buyer to expect is that a 75+ VGA will roughly conform to a 9.0/A WATA.

I sent a vga 80 over to wata and it came back 8.5 A+

[Dumars2001 | 164]

3 hours ago, Gulag Joe said:

I sent a vga 80 over to wata and it came back 8.5 A+

Yeah, the grades can really differentiate when cross grading from VGA to WATA (and I would imagine vice-versa), but JoneBone's crossover guide is the most accurate reference available.

I have cross graded 75's that came back 8.5 or a 9.0,  VGA 80's that came back 9.2 or 9.0, 85's that came back 9.2, 9.4 and once a 9.6, so it really is a crap shoot with any crossover that you attempt between VGA and WATA.

I honestly think that you probably could/would receive a higher grade, if you cracked the game out of the VGA case by yourself and then sent it to WATA raw to be graded by them..

Edited October 16, 2021 by Dumars2001

[inasuma | 1,203]

3 hours ago, Gulag Joe said:

I sent a vga 80 over to wata and it came back 8.5 A+

Fun ones to add that I’ve crossed:

90 -> 9.4 A++
85 -> 9.2 A++

Edited October 16, 2021 by inasuma

[jonebone | 1,307]

You just have to use your own eyeball test on the crossovers. Thankfully I collect both scales.  So if I buy a "bad 85" that isn't worth crossing, I'm completely content owning it as an 85.  I don't really like owning 80+ or below on VGA though, and I don't really like owning anything below an A seal on Wata, which can even be suspect at times.

[inasuma | 1,203]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:36 AM, jonebone said:

You just have to use your own eyeball test on the crossovers. Thankfully I collect both scales.  So if I buy a "bad 85" that isn't worth crossing, I'm completely content owning it as an 85.  I don't really like owning 80+ or below on VGA though, and I don't really like owning anything below an A seal on Wata, which can even be suspect at times.

yeah this is why i grade my own games. i have my own grading scale and can use my own eye balls so duh.

for real though i collect both scales too - i've basically stopped crossing altogether. if anything, i've begun to prefer vga slabs throughout the year.

[Seth | 166]

1 hour ago, inasuma said:

yeah this is why i grade my own games. i have my own grading scale and can use my own eye balls so duh.

for real though i collect both scales too - i've basically stopped crossing altogether. if anything, i've begun to prefer vga slabs throughout the year.

Inasuma, I think this is where the conventional wisdom will head and soon, i.e... don't cross over. Don't let one company decide what another company's product is worth. If your 75 EX+/NM looks great, don't cross it to WATA and get an 8.0/A when it (based on condition) deserves a VG/NM (9.0/A).

But *also*, don't listen to folks saying a 75 VGA "is" X or Y [where X or Y is a given WATA grade]. Anyone who *assumes* crossovers can or should or will happen is inadvertently fanboying WATA and letting WATA decide what VGA grades are "worth" when that doesn't matter (only what you think and/or future buyers will think matters, and we have no idea what WATA's reputation will be, or VGA's, many years from now).

I mostly own WATA games, but when I realized that VGA games cost less and that most buyers misunderstand relative condition... I switched to mostly VGA so fast your head would spin because you get way, way, way more for your buck. My theory now is that WATA is great for sellers and VGA is great for buyers, period.

[Seth | 166]

BTW, I think all the crossover talk comes from quick-flip resellers, who need to switch to WATA because right now—but maybe only right now—WATA games sell higher. Anyone who is a buyer, a holder, a long-term collector, or a slow reseller has no reason to obsess over crossing over from VGA to WATA, especially with WATA's current QC problems and horrendous wait times. So I think anyone looking long-term should be buying VGA and not WATA.

[Gloves | 11,776]

39 minutes ago, RETRO said:

BTW, I think all the crossover talk comes from quick-flip resellers, who need to switch to WATA because right now—but maybe only right now—WATA games sell higher. Anyone who is a buyer, a holder, a long-term collector, or a slow reseller has no reason to obsess over crossing over from VGA to WATA, especially with WATA's current QC problems and horrendous wait times. So I think anyone looking long-term should be buying VGA and not WATA.

Buy the game, not the acrylic case holding it. 

[GPX | 1,369]

2 hours ago, Gloves said:

Buy the game, not the acrylic case holding it. 

Buy the letters and numbers, not the acrylic material or the game inside it.

[Seth | 166]

12 hours ago, GPX said:

Buy the letters and numbers, not the acrylic material or the game inside it.

Guys, I don't buy *any* game I don't absolutely love from having played a ton of it. By the time I'm buying (as you say) the acrylic material and the letters and the numbers (and so on), I'm already a fan of the game and want it in my house as a (framed) artwork that brings me joy from looking at it because of the memories of having *played it*.

I can't speak for anyone else, but don't assume all collectors are investors or resellers. I'm neither.

[GPX | 1,369]

1 hour ago, RETRO said:

Guys, I don't buy *any* game I don't absolutely love from having played a ton of it. By the time I'm buying (as you say) the acrylic material and the letters and the numbers (and so on), I'm already a fan of the game and want it in my house as a (framed) artwork that brings me joy from looking at it because of the memories of having *played it*.

I can't speak for anyone else, but don't assume all collectors are investors or resellers. I'm neither.

That was me having a dig at those going bonkers over any game with 9.6/A or better. Moreso those who have no idea what the game is about, or how common/uncommon they actually are.

I’ve generally agreed with a lot of what you’ve said in the prior posts.

[Seth | 166]

4 hours ago, GPX said:

That was me having a dig at those going bonkers over any game with 9.6/A or better. Moreso those who have no idea what the game is about, or how common/uncommon they actually are.

I’ve generally agreed with a lot of what you’ve said in the prior posts.

Ah, got it. Thanks.

PS Was playing Crisis Force (NES/FC-JP) today and totally recommend it to anyone who hasn't played it. Amazing game. Not my first or second or even third time playing it, but I'd forgotten how good it is.

[tidaldreams | 654]

Did anyone bid on CL? Man there were so many steals... I spent way too much money. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by tidaldreams

[OptOut | 8,883]

4 minutes ago, tidaldreams said:

Did anyone bid on CL? Man there were so many steals... I spent way too much money. 

What did you get?

[tidaldreams | 654]

5 minutes ago, OptOut said:

What did you get?

Don't really wanna reveal all of them  Here's a few:

I am actually not sure if i overpaid for MML2. I suppose I can just send it to HA and then we'll find out for sure. Someone can let me know.

[OptOut | 8,883]

Lol, you just spent like 4 months of my game spending budget in like one night, lol! 

[GetTheGreg | 105]

14 minutes ago, tidaldreams said:

Don't really wanna reveal all of them  Here's a few:

I am actually not sure if i overpaid for MML2. I suppose I can just send it to HA and then we'll find out for sure. Someone can let me know.

Azure Dreams and Legends 2 stuck out to me as well.  Great snags!  I'm also very torn on Legends 2 haha.  Feels cheap-ish?  Or maybe no one cares about it these days...?  Hard to say!

[tidaldreams | 654]

21 minutes ago, Maertens29 said:

Azure Dreams and Legends 2 stuck out to me as well.  Great snags!  I'm also very torn on Legends 2 haha.  Feels cheap-ish?  Or maybe no one cares about it these days...?  Hard to say!

What about Crimson Tears haha? This and Fragile Dreams were being pumped like crazy at one point, but looks like it tapered off. Funnily enough I also tried to get Fragile Dreams (from HA), but failed at that one.

I sold my Azure Dreams that was in worse condition than this one for more than this, so I'm 1000% sure on that one haha.

Edited October 21, 2021 by tidaldreams

[GetTheGreg | 105]

28 minutes ago, tidaldreams said:

What about Crimson Tears haha? This and Fragile Dreams were being pumped like crazy at one point, but looks like it tapered off. Funnily enough I also tried to get Fragile Dreams (from HA), but failed at that one.

I sold my Azure Dreams that was in worse condition than this one for more than this, so I'm 1000% sure on that one haha.

Funny enough, Crimson Tears is a game that I know nothing about/have barely ever heard about.  Sooooo, no really comment I can provide there haha

[Seth | 166]

I got a couple games, one of which was Golgo 13 (85 VGA, Indiana Collection) for NES for around $200—a pretty common game, but a still-underrated one I love and didn't happen to own. And I'll admit, when Greg said on the livestream, "Not bad, not bad at all!" about the sale, I blushed. The other game I got was my favorite NES game as a kid, and I got a good deal on it but I'll leave that one mysterious.

I'm now a pretty big fan of CertifiedLink. There were some *insane* deals. I wish I'd had more money to spend. Like five or six rare-ish NES games I wanted and had my eye on sold for under $350 and I just didn't have the money.

[Seth | 166]

PS I know "Indiana Collection" matters absolutely not at all, I was just being specific!