Are the Famicom and NES the same thing?

[Tanooki | 4,952]

45 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Just playing devils advocate here. The Sega Genesis and Master System can both be played using the same Genesis hardware. You just need to use a Power Base converter which is essentially a pin converter. Yet both are viewed as different systems. 
 

Likewise, NES needs a pin converter to play Famicom.

I get the argument that Master system games are using the Genesis processor hardware differently than Genesis games.. but isn’t the Famicom also for sound processing and Famicom disk system?

Again I’m not advocating. Just something worth thinking about 

Fair enough, to a point, might as well call the Nintendo DS the Gameboy Advance DS then right?  Same hardware there too, just more of it added to the newer set of specs for those games.  SMS hardware is a coprocessor to the SG/MD, so that kind of fits better as the GBA arm chip is the sub to the larger arm the DS requires.

The famicom though, no.  The hardware was open ended so you could tack on more stuff from external sources.  The added audio was fed through the expansion port on bottom but the actual utility of the expansion was built into the FDS components (just like later again they were added say int he VRC6 from Konami for Akamajou Densetsu/Castlevania III.)

This is one hell of a what if...then that rabbit hole given how the famicom/nes were designed.  Every open port with a pin reader array in it opened the door to just bypass and expand whatever basically as long as someone wanted to pay for the components.

[Link | 2,727]

 

He didn’t even have to jump to SuperFX / Virtua Racing. The case is better made with MMC chips. 

Anyway, I can play Doom on Nintendo and Super Mario on PC, so they are the same thing

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Link

[fcgamer | 4,753]

Doing some quick "research" on the Wikipedia lists (yes, I know they aren't entirely accurate, but we can still get a ballpark figure), I got these figures:

Sega Saturn:

Non-Japan exclusives: 66

Percentage of total library released exclusively outside of Japan: 5%

Percentage of library available outside of Japan: 19%

 

NES / Famicom*

Non-Japan exclusives: 331

Japanese exclusives: 671

Percentage of total library released exclusively outside of Japan: 24%

Percentage of total library available outside of Japan: 52%

Japanese gamers got access to 76% of the library.

*For these numbers I am excluding all unlicensed games and disk system games.

Let's now look at the disks:

Only about 23% were released on the NES. But a lot of folks consider the disk system as something different, similar to how people view the Sega CD, N64DD, etc.

But for laughs, let's count them in! Suddenly, if you play NES, you are only getting to access to 46% of the total software library, compared to Japanese gamers who got 81%.

If we throw in unlicensed games, things will get even funnier. Suddenly Famicom has access to about 87-90% of the catalogue, whereas NES tails behind accessing a whopping 41%.

That's why I personally see the two as not the same console at all. Gamers playing on the NES have access to less than half to half of the entire game library at best, and roughly half of the software appearing on the NES are exclusives, with a lot of those being rubbish.

Famicom players get 3/4 to 90% of the entire library of games, depending what we count.

In conclusion, people growing up on nes and people growing up on famicom will have vastly different experiences, and that's without even discussing the keyboard, modem, karaoke, etc.

 

 

[fcgamer | 4,753]

To look at it in a different way: think about the amount of shared vocabulary between English and German, even shares grammar. Although it's at perhaps 60% the same, would you say they are the same language? Well, they originated from the same languages, but...

The same can be said about NES and Famicom. Although some things are the same, they're more dissimilar than they are alike.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

4 hours ago, peg said:

For collecting sets of physical games, no. For playing games, yes.

THIS.

Edit: and I include the VS Arcade hardware and the PlayChoice-10 in the same sentiment: different when you're a "collector" but ultimately the same when it comes down to playing the games...

Edited June 30, 2021 by Dr. Morbis

[fcgamer | 4,753]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

THIS.

Edit: and I include the VS Arcade hardware and the PlayChoice-10 in the same sentiment: different when you're a "collector" but ultimately the same when it comes down to playing the games...

Except they have totally different sets of games. 

[Sumez | 2,994]

  

7 hours ago, twiztor said:

NES came out 2 years after the famicom. Could the argument be made that NES is the "FC Pro?" or even the "FCLite?"

Or the redesigned FC?

 

[DefaultGen | 5,432]

I don't even think a Heartbeat Personal Trainer Console is a Sega Genesis, which is literally a Sega Genesis that doesn't say the words "Sega Genesis" on it, so a Famicom certainly isn't an NES when it has multiple hardware differences. I can't blow into my NES controller to kill Pol's Voice in Zelda. I can't play an NES game on a Famicom by just converting a few pins like I can the other way around. 

I think stuff can largely be compatible or backwards compatible without being the same thing. The original Wii is compatible with the vast majority of Gamecube things without even requiring modification or adapters but I wouldn't say "The Wii is a Gamecube".

Edited June 30, 2021 by DefaultGen

[Sumez | 2,994]

 Good to see most people in here at least agree with me for the most part.  Then again, thinking the NES and Famicom are different things is pretty illogical, too.

If the NES and Famicom are two different platforms, so is the MegaDrive or Genesis. Or American Saturn and Japanese Saturn. Or European SNES and American SNES. Or European NES and American NES. Or Japanese N64 and European N64. Or phat PS3 and slim PS3.

It's pretty much the exact same example, but every now and then you see people acting like Famicom and NES are way more separate things, due to a minor difference that entirely related to branding and regional lockout. But I'm assuming a part of the misunderstanding also comes from people not really understanding hardware, and therefore opting not to care about it.
It also seems to me that some people maybe think the Japanese library is a little too daunting, and thus decide to not even pay attention to it? Which I'm assuming is the same reason some people very strangely decide to even limit themselves to just one platform in the same place.

4 hours ago, phart010 said:

but isn’t the Famicom also for sound processing and Famicom disk system?

No.  The FDS sound processing happens inside the FDS peripheral. And in fact, the line that mixes the audio from it also exists on an American NES. Like the cartridge port, however, it's just organized differently.

10 hours ago, phart010 said:

Some argue Famicom and NES are the same hardware. But they have different pinouts and require an adapter to achieve compatibility.

Putting some pins in a different order doesn't make a difference in hardware. It's a much smaller difference than the more obvious changes in the system's visual design. If you want to argue for "different hardware" the European NES is much more different compared to US NES vs. JP FC.

In short, yeah there are differences all around, but you also don't see people making the same separation for the PS4 and PS4 Pro.

10 hours ago, cj_robot said:

There was add-on hardware (Disk System) for the Famicom that added an entire new library that simply can't be played on an NES.

Not true. In fact, every time I ever played my FDS games it has been on an American NES.
You could make the same argument for the Satellaview, Sega Channel, 64DD, etc. Regional distribution/media platforms that didn't exist elsewhere.
I can see why someone would argue FDS itself being a different platform though, because the media itself is drastically different, and requires specific additional hardware. I probably wouldn't agree, and in the case of FC/NES it would especially make things muddy because lots of FDS games were changed to cartridge format when localized, but you have to make the separation somewhere. A Game Boy game doesn't become a SNES game because I'm playing it on a Super GB. And let's not get into the heated grey area of in-cartridge co-processors

5 hours ago, Link said:

The platforms are similar but not physically compatible, á la NTSC and PAL video tapes.

PAL and NTSC NES games aren't "physically compatible" either, due to the region lockout chip. I mean yeah, they are the same platform obviously, but you can't play them on eachother's "intended" SKU models without minor modifications or adapters. It's just a region separation mechanism, similar to the design differences between eastern and western cartridges. Not a different platform by any stretch of the imagination  

[fcgamer | 4,753]

13 minutes ago, Sumez said:

Not true. In fact, every time I ever played my FDS games it has been on an American NES.
You could make the same argument for the Satellaview, Sega Channel, 64DD, etc. Regional distribution/media platforms that didn't exist elsewhere.

Many (most?) people tend to view the Famicom and FDS as different things.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

36 minutes ago, Sumez said:

Good to see most people in here at least agree with me for the most part.  Then again, thinking the NES and Famicom are different things is pretty illogical, too.

Not sure where you're getting the "most" part from bud, I'm getting a totally different vibe when I read the responses.

[JamesRobot | 5,826]

It's in the name.  One is a Family Computer and the other is a full fledged Entertainment System.  Pretty sure the Famicom is for doing homework and writing papers or something.  Clearly not the same. 

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

Semantics! The two systems share hardware similarities and portions of their respective software libraries, but they aren't the same thing.

Twins aren't the same person.

[JamesRobot | 5,826]

Famicom

 

NES

[Sumez | 2,994]

14 minutes ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

Semantics! The two systems share hardware similarities and portions of their respective software libraries, but they aren't the same thing.

Twins aren't the same person.

A person putting on a different set of clothes is still the same person, though.
Silly analogy.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Sumez

[fcgamer | 4,753]

Well guys, I think this explains the relationship a bit better between the two machines.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

55 minutes ago, Sumez said:

A person putting on a different set of clothes is still the same person, though.
Silly analogy.

Not so, because in this case it isn't one person. Different body parts (hardware and attachments) and different psyche (software library)

Let's try vehicles then. At some point the Mazda 6 and Ford Fusion were built on the same platform and their engines were technically the same, yet were entirely different cars.

[Sumez | 2,994]

1 hour ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

Not so, because in this case it isn't one person. Different body parts (hardware and attachments) and different psyche (software library)

But they do have the same hardware and the same software library.

And your car analogy sounds more fitting for the NES and C64 which are different consoles that use the same CPU.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Sumez

[T-Pac | 7,587]

Personally, I consider like-consoles across regions to be parallel but separate so long as they have functional (non-cosmetic) hardware differences and/or game-library differences. This distinction would apply within the same region as well in the case of cross-platform hardware like the Neo Geo MVS/AES. The only exception would be console “updates” so to speak, as I’d consider something like the Gameboy Advance and the Gameboy Advance SP to be the same system (albeit different iterations) - same functionality and same library.

Until I’m convinced that 60 and 72 are the same number, I can’t see how the NES and Famicom are the same console.

Sure it’s comparing apples to apples - but when one apple is a Granny Smith and the other is a McIntosh, it’s a noteworthy distinction.

-CasualCart

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

15 minutes ago, Sumez said:

But they do have the same hardware and the same software library.

And your car analogy sounds more fitting for the NES and C64 which are different consoles that use the same CPU.

This isn't a car forum and I won't expand on the technical details further, but vehicles sharing an entire platform means more than just the engine.

The NES and Famicom's libraries are different. Even if there are common titles between the two, you couldn't use the same carts between consoles because of hardware differences. They're not even the same carts. And there would be localization differences. 

[Nintegageo | 582]

I wanted to say they are and yet I get annoyed when top 10, hidden gem, etc lists would include SFC games in an NES list so I suppose I vote no. Certainly see valid arguments to yay or nay with this one.

[phart010 | 1,708]

[G-type | 2,523]

aside from the aesthetic differences and the changes to the form factor... the guts are mostly the same. 58 of the pins (that do most of the work) are the same. The extra pins on the NES were for the lockout chip and future expansion.

[Tanooki | 4,952]

Actually the NES PAL and NTSC are very largely compatible, over 90% from what I gather, if you use a top loader, or snip the lame lockout chip.  While one is modding, the other is off the shelf.  I used to have a number of PAL titles and they worked fine.

[Sumez | 2,994]

The games will run differently whether you run them on a PAL NES or NTSC NES because the hardware is different, though. But I'm not going to be obnoxious and claim those are two different platforms, because that would be really silly, and serve absolutely no purpose.  

 

  

4 hours ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

you couldn't use the same carts between consoles because of hardware differences. They're not even the same carts. And there would be localization differences. 

You can use the same carts between the consoles because there aren't any hardware differences.
And yes, in some rare cases they aren't just "basically" the same cart, but the exact same carts. I literally just posted a picture of the innards of a US Wrecking Crew in that other thread.

2 hours ago, Nintegageo said:

I wanted to say they are and yet I get annoyed when top 10, hidden gem, etc lists would include SFC FC games in an NES list so I suppose I vote no. Certainly see valid arguments to yay or nay with this one.

This is honestly the best point I've seen brought up so far, like that's kind of where this stuff actually matters.

And of course my take is really the exact opposite  - I think it would be really dumb to make some kind of top list of that sort, and then just flat out ignore certain games because they weren't released in the region you like.  Kid Dracula absolutely belongs on a list of NES hidden gems, and Final Fantasy 6 is one of the absolute best games released on the SNES, doesn't matter that it wasn't released here. If you want to make a list of the "top 10 American NES games", just call it that.