Are the Famicom and NES the same thing?

[cj_robot | 546]

Silly question? Maybe. Obviously the internal hardware is pretty much the same, but I believe it's worth considering the differences of the two consoles when talking about it's legacy. I believe it's worth looking at each region's library as its own set, as they were each unique and tailored specifically to a separate audience.

Of course, I would not consider them two completely separate consoles, but more like siblings. This debate could go beyond just the NES (Mega Drive vs Genesis, etc.), but I think it's pretty interesting that the Famicom and NES probably have more regional differences than any other console in history.

Just wondering what other people think about this, because some thoughts I've already heard have kind of surprised me.

[phart010 | 1,708]

@fcgamer

this will be a fun read  

[Brickman | 4,013]

I’ve said it before, but I find it to be more of an American thing to view the libraries so separately. In most other regions Famicom/NES are the same. Why deprive yourself of so many awesome games because some arbitrary region. Chuck an adapter in and start playing all the awesome Famicom games!

Also if you’re going for a full NES set it isn’t full without Famicom.

I think the Saturn has the biggest region differences personally.

[phart010 | 1,708]

I’m not taking either side here as it’s not my subject of expertise. But I do find it interesting that some system hardware can play games designed for other systems while still retaining their own system identity. For example, PS3 could play PS2 and PS1 discs. But they were three distinct systems. Also, DS can play GBA but the game libraries are distinct.

Then there are systems that have compatibility with others with hardware modifications. But at what point do you draw the line? Sega Genesis can play CD games by adding Sega CD hardware. But then it can also play CD games through the cart slot if you have a Mega SD.

SNES can play gameboy if you have a Super Gameboy adapter. You might argue Gameboy is obviously a different system because your playing it off of the Gameboy processor built into the Super Gameboy. Ok Master System can be played on Genesis using the Power Base converter and it plays 100% in the processor built in the Genesis. But they’re different systems 

Some argue Famicom and NES are the same hardware. But they have different pinouts and require an adapter to achieve compatibility. Same goes for Saturn, you need to use a Pseudo Saturn Kai adaptor to get the library to work.
 

Dreamcast can play some PS1 games with a Bleemcast disc. XBox plays DVD movies if you add a hardware adapter (actually the software to play DVDs is already encoded in the firmware, the adaptor just toggles it on). Are DVD movies part of the XBox library?

Then there’s the argument of essentially the same exact games being developed but ported simultaneously to XBox One, PS4 and PC. Same game, different hardware.

I don’t actually know where I sit on this, just wanted to ask some questions to get people thinking? Where do you draw the line?

Edited June 29, 2021 by phart010

[cj_robot | 546]

16 minutes ago, Shmup said:

I think the Saturn has the biggest region differences personally.

I agree that the Saturn has a huge ton of software that never left Japan, much more than even the Famicom. But the Famicom probably had the most drastic console design change in it's move to North America, other than maybe the PC Engine/TurboGrafx-16. There was add-on hardware (Disk System) for the Famicom that added an entire new library that simply can't be played on an NES. And so much of the library had major differences across regions (for all sorts of reasons), moreso than an other console library I can think of.

Thats the stuff I was thinking about anyway.

[MagusSmurf | 577]

The NES is the American (edit: actually, probably better to say "western" in general?) version of the Famicom with some adjustments made.

Anyone disagreeing is a hairsplitter or a weirdo.

fin

Edited June 29, 2021 by MagusSmurf

[twiztor | 855]

NES came out 2 years after the famicom. Could the argument be made that NES is the "FC Pro?" or even the "FCLite?"

[mbd39 | 2,029]

The main hardware difference is that the original NES was a front loader instead of a top loader. Horrible design that was only done for aesthetic reasons rather than practicality, resulting in much worse reliability than what should have been.

Famicom also got a disk drive attachment. That's pretty cool.

 

 

 

[JamesRobot | 5,826]

Totally different.  I don't think I've even seen a Famicom irl.  It's the stuff of eastern legend only briefly mentioned in hushed tones on the playground associated with awe inspiring rumors of some new third Super Mario in which the player can literally fly through the entire game.

Purely mythical.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

@Shmup: Would you be able to run some numbers on the Saturn libraries (the number of exclusives per each set, as well as the number of shares software on each set)? If not, no worries, I'll do it myself when I get back from work. I'm just really curious, as I always hear this getting tossed around regarding being the most drastic / different, yet I am not convinced on it.

 

[Inzoreno | 102]

4 hours ago, phart010 said:

I’m not taking either side here as it’s not my subject of expertise. But I do find it interesting that some system hardware can play games designed for other systems while still retaining their own system identity. For example, PS3 could play PS2 and PS1 discs. But they were three distinct systems. Also, DS can play GBA but the game libraries are distinct.

Then there are systems that have compatibility with others with hardware modifications. But at what point do you draw the line? Sega Genesis can play CD games by adding Sega CD hardware. But then it can also play CD games through the cart slot if you have a Mega SD.

SNES can play gameboy if you have a Super Gameboy adapter. You might argue Gameboy is obviously a different system because your playing it off of the Gameboy processor built into the Super Gameboy. Ok Master System can be played on Genesis using the Power Base converter and it plays 100% in the processor built in the Genesis. But they’re different systems 

Some argue Famicom and NES are the same hardware. But they have different pinouts and require an adapter to achieve compatibility. Same goes for Saturn, you need to use a Pseudo Saturn Kai adaptor to get the library to work.
 

Dreamcast can play some PS1 games with a Bleemcast disc. XBox plays DVD movies if you add a hardware adapter (actually the software to play DVDs is already encoded in the firmware, the adaptor just toggles it on). Are DVD movies part of the XBox library?

Then there’s the argument of essentially the same exact games being developed but ported simultaneously to XBox One, PS4 and PC. Same game, different hardware.

I don’t actually know where I sit on this, just wanted to ask some questions to get people thinking? Where do you draw the line?

Just to give my two-cents, I generally believe that a console's library consists of all games designed specifically to run on that system without the need of any additional peripherals. So, the SNES library doesn't include Game Boy games as they weren't specifically developed for the SNES and only work with the use of an adapter. In fact, I even consider PSVR games a separate library because you cannot play the PSVR-only games without the VR headset. Or Sega CD and 32X games aren't part of the Genesis set as they require additional peripherals. It's not a perfect system, of course, since it would technically disqualify Majora's Mask and Donkey Kong 64 from the N64 library due to the requirement of the Expansion Pak. But there's not enough of those exceptions to make make rethink my categorization yet. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Inzoreno

[phart010 | 1,708]

46 minutes ago, mbd39 said:

The main hardware difference is that the original NES was a front loader instead of a top loader. Horrible design that was only done for aesthetic reasons rather than practicality, resulting in much worse reliability than what should have been.

Famicom also got a disk drive attachment. That's pretty cool.

 

 

 

What about 60 pin tapes versus 72 pin tapes

[fcgamer | 4,753]

4 hours ago, phart010 said:

@fcgamer

this will be a fun read  

Thanks, I'm right on it sir, as soon as I'm done with work I'll start analysing the evidence.

[mbd39 | 2,029]

27 minutes ago, phart010 said:

What about 60 pin tapes versus 72 pin tapes

Oh yeah. Thanks.

[TDIRunner | 2,771]

In my mind, the NES and Famicom consoles and libraries should be treated no differently than the US Switch and Japanese Switch consoles and libraries.  

[Link | 2,727]

Famicom games are import games (in the US). The platforms are similar but not physically compatible, á la NTSC and PAL video tapes. Translations were programmed. The processor is the same and some games play identically. They only work together by means of added technology (adapters or emulation). Adapters were period present but not at all common. Famicom was maybe given a line here and there in Nintendo Power, but otherwise a mysterious artifact in the US market.

They’re not fully compatible. They’re parallel and I keep ROMS in the same folder for emulation, but everything taken together, I consider the libraries seperate.

[cj_robot | 546]

28 minutes ago, TDIRunner said:

In my mind, the NES and Famicom consoles and libraries should be treated no differently than the US Switch and Japanese Switch consoles and libraries.  

I feel like the regional lines are more blurred these days, with the phasing out of region-locking consoles and the fact that the majority of regional differences in games are simply language translation/localization and little if any more changes.

I feel like the Famicom/NES games that crossed regions, more often than not, had significant changes due to having to use different chips, converting disk system games to cartridge, changing licensed properties to generic ones, and some that are just plain inexplicable.

I find that much more interesting than regional differences in any modern video games, and worth distinguishing.

[TDIRunner | 2,771]

4 minutes ago, cj_robot said:

I feel like the regional lines are more blurred these days, with the phasing out of region-locking consoles and the fact that the majority of regional differences in games are simply language translation/localization and little if any more changes.

I feel like the Famicom/NES games that crossed regions, more often than not, had significant changes due to having to use different chips, converting disk system games to cartridge, changing licensed properties to generic ones, and some that are just plain inexplicable.

I find that much more interesting than regional differences in any modern video games, and worth distinguishing.

I certainly agree that regional differences are much different these days since most stuff is region free, but that doesn't change a word of what I wrote, and I still stand by my statement that the NES and Famicom consoles and libraries should be treated no differently than the US Switch and Japanese Switch consoles and libraries.  

[Tanooki | 4,952]

Sigh (and not) actually glad to see this not dirtying up the console battle vote thread.

The answer though, I think at least it should be, and is for me.  NES <-> FC

They are NOT different, they are not different systems, the hardware is basically and ultimately, the same.

I guess I look at it from many angles, not just as lifelong Nintendo owner, but also as a SNK owner of the last 5 years of a MVS cabinet.

The Neo Geo MVS/AES have the same identical distinction on the hardware that the NES/FC do.  REGION(utility of use) LOCKING through the use of modified PINOUT and PIN READER slots.  That is IT!

The MVS and AES like the NES and FC went with using a specific total of PINS on the boards for one market, and then another set of pins for the other.  Nintendo did this to basically region lock the Famicom from the NTSC Nintendo.  SNK did this so arcade operators couldn't buy a $1000 MVS game with a $200 AES cartridge to avoid the costs.

 

That's what the Famicom and NES thing is, MONEY & CONTROL.  They're the same hardware with a different read out to control the flow of money and usage, nothing more or less.  Even Nintendo bypassed it, clearly they did, crack open any Stack Up cart and quite a few of the earliest blackbox games, odds are, you may find a licensed 60->72PIN convertor where they just jammed the FC board into the NES shell for use.  And why not?  The data is identical, they didn't get cute, the games were just in english mostly via the menus anyway.  Kung Fu, Balloon Fight, the sports stuff, the 2 ROB games, etc are just in english, the code, if you go check a ROM dump somewhere tends to show after the game name something like (WORLD) as there isn't some (J), (U), (E), etc version by area.  Later sure, they had stories, but games that don't need to be read, they were world releases (well at least NTSC-J vs US -- PAL just sucked.)

[peg | 372]

For collecting sets of physical games, no. For playing games, yes.

Edited June 30, 2021 by peg

[Brickman | 4,013]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

@Shmup: Would you be able to run some numbers on the Saturn libraries (the number of exclusives per each set, as well as the number of shares software on each set)? If not, no worries, I'll do it myself when I get back from work. I'm just really curious, as I always hear this getting tossed around regarding being the most drastic / different, yet I am not convinced on it.

 

According to Satakore, which is hands down the best resources for Saturn, there were 1270 Japanese Saturn games and 257 US games. Japan got almost all of the US releases bar maybe 10 tops? 

[cj_robot | 546]

8 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

That's what the Famicom and NES thing is, MONEY & CONTROL.  They're the same hardware with a different read out to control the flow of money and usage, nothing more or less.  Even Nintendo bypassed it, clearly they did, crack open any Stack Up cart and quite a few of the earliest blackbox games, odds are, you may find a licensed 60->72PIN convertor where they just jammed the FC board into the NES shell for use.  And why not?  The data is identical, they didn't get cute, the games were just in english mostly via the menus anyway.  Kung Fu, Balloon Fight, the sports stuff, the 2 ROB games, etc are just in english, the code, if you go check a ROM dump somewhere tends to show after the game name something like (WORLD) as there isn't some (J), (U), (E), etc version by area.  Later sure, they had stories, but games that don't need to be read, they were world releases (well at least NTSC-J vs US -- PAL just sucked.)

Yes, but for the most part, the games you're talking are limited to a very small set of just the earliest North American releases. After that you start to see many games that are different across regions, sometimes drastically different.

The Famicom and NES are essentially the same hardware, but packaged in entirely different cases, with different hardware features, with different libraries that were marketed to an entirely different culture, many of the games having different chips that were exclusive to the region.

Anyway, I'm not saying they're completely different platforms, which of course would be silly and inaccurate. But they are different versions of the same platform, which I find interesting.

In the end, it's all just a different way of looking at things, I guess, and there isn't a right or wrong way to do that.

[Tanooki | 4,952]

Doesn't matter, it's still pinout aside, the same hardware down to the function of the board itself and its output and control capabilities.  Sure I used them to make a point with the wold release level single rom games, but that was more of an aside.

The libraries sure are different, but they work on the same hardware ultimately, if you get a basic pin convertor, one even Nintendo covertly sold from day one.

There really isn't a good way to argue this anyway.  I do in the end if I'm speaking to someone for ease totally say that's a NES game, that's a Famicom game, but ultimately they're both "NIntendo" games and I mean that from it being the 8bit Nintendo, not Nintendo the company, never have.

 

Same reason I'll call it a Neo Geo game, not an AES or MVS game, I will distinguish it though with NeoCD and NGPC.  NeoCD often had stuff that largely would work, but did get some recoding, and enough times, scrapped the actual audio for CD music.  They're so NOT the same.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Tanooki

[YOURTURN | 1,257]

The Nintendo Entertainment System had the following:

- Games.
- Robot for select games.
- Gun (that did not look like a gun) for select games.
- Removable controllers.
- Two optional controllers.

The Nintendo Family Computer (Famicom) had the following:

- Games.
- Robot for select games.
- Gun (that did look like a gun) for select games.
- Non-removable controllers, with controller #2 including a feature that was promoted in Zelda 1.
- Keyboard.
- Disk System (plugin; for games that were put on U.S. carts).
- Karaoke Studio (plugin).
- 3D system (plugin).
- 'Top-Rider' inflatable motorcycle/controller.
- Modem (plugin)

The list kinda goes on for both sides. At least in regards to official merch. But in the end...

If you only focus on the games they share, they are the same. If you focus on the rest, they are different.

[phart010 | 1,708]

23 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Doesn't matter, it's still pinout aside, the same hardware down to the function of the board itself and its output and control capabilities.  Sure I used them to make a point with the wold release level single rom games, but that was more of an aside.

The libraries sure are different, but they work on the same hardware ultimately, if you get a basic pin convertor, one even Nintendo covertly sold from day one.

There really isn't a good way to argue this anyway.  I do in the end if I'm speaking to someone for ease totally say that's a NES game, that's a Famicom game, but ultimately they're both "NIntendo" games and I mean that from it being the 8bit Nintendo, not Nintendo the company, never have.

 

Same reason I'll call it a Neo Geo game, not an AES or MVS game, I will distinguish it though with NeoCD and NGPC.  NeoCD often had stuff that largely would work, but did get some recoding, and enough times, scrapped the actual audio for CD music.  They're so NOT the same.

Just playing devils advocate here. The Sega Genesis and Master System can both be played using the same Genesis hardware. You just need to use a Power Base converter which is essentially a pin converter. Yet both are viewed as different systems. 
 

Likewise, NES needs a pin converter to play Famicom.

I get the argument that Master system games are using the Genesis processor hardware differently than Genesis games.. but isn’t the Famicom also for sound processing and Famicom disk system?

Again I’m not advocating. Just something worth thinking about