F you John Cena

[Code Monkey | 2,014]

Before I reply to this, since I'm still being mentioned here, I want to make sure I understand things correctly. Is this correct?

• China had a government.
• That government got pushed out and eventually ended up on a neighbouring island.
• A new government formed on the mainland.
• The mainland government says they are the Chinese government and the island is a separate country.
• The island says they are the Chinese government and are part of the country referred to as China.
• The mainland government told vaccine companies not to sell their life saving medicine to the island and the island doesn't want to buy the vaccines Chinese companies are making because they're supposedly not effective.

Did I miss something? I read all of the links provided and while they all contradict each other, this is basically what I understand so far.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

4 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Before I reply to this, since I'm still being mentioned here, I want to make sure I understand things correctly. Is this correct?

• China had a government.
• That government got pushed out and eventually ended up on a neighbouring island.
• A new government formed on the mainland.
• The mainland government says they are the Chinese government and the island is a separate country.
• The island says they are the Chinese government and are part of the country referred to as China.
• The mainland government told vaccine companies not to sell their life saving medicine to the island and the island doesn't want to buy the vaccines Chinese companies are making because they're supposedly not effective.

Did I miss something? I read all of the links provided and while they all contradict each other, this is basically what I understand so far.

Are you genuinely this unaware of the situation between Taiwan and China?

I find this really hard to believe.

[Gloves | 11,843]

13 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Are you genuinely this unaware of the situation between Taiwan and China?

I find this really hard to believe.

He knows more than I do, assuming what he typed out is true. I don't know the first thing about taiwan/China relations. Why is that hard to believe? 

[Code Monkey | 2,014]

57 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Are you genuinely this unaware of the situation between Taiwan and China?

I find this really hard to believe.

I don't think it's strange, I have never heard of any of this in 39 years of life. I don't try to ignore it but it's not a hot topic here and I have zero Chinese friends. I did date a Chinese girl for a year but she never mentioned it once.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

5 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

I don't think it's strange, I have never heard of any of this in 39 years of life. I don't try to ignore it but it's not a hot topic here and I have zero Chinese friends. I did date a Chinese girl for a year but she never mentioned it once.

It is incredibly strange.

This was a hot issue from long before most of us here were even born, so to go through your entire life without ever having been aware of it is a pretty crazy perspective.

This is ALMOST on the level of claiming to not know that there is a long-standing conflict in the middle east...

 

 

EDIT: and this isn't a matter of "hot issue here..." in some sense of your own geography really mattering -- this is a "hot issue" for the entire world, because at some point, this is a top-3-contender for what causes World War 3.

Edited June 1, 2021 by arch_8ngel

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

6 hours ago, Gloves said:

He knows more than I do, assuming what he typed out is true. I don't know the first thing about taiwan/China relations. Why is that hard to believe? 

Really? 

This is a major geopolitical situation that dates back to the beginnings of communist China, and has been an on-going point of tension for our entire lives.

 

[Gloves | 11,843]

18 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Really? 

This is a major geopolitical situation that dates back to the beginnings of communist China, and has been an on-going point of tension for our entire lives.

 

Yeah, really. I have generally no interest in politics or similar. I'm sure I've probably heard a thing or two here and there but it's not been internalized as it has to my mind no direct impact on me personally. It's not exactly a topic of discussion that usually just pops up, and I don't read or watch the news, aside from occasionally looking at Reddit, and even then it's filtered specifically to my interests. 

Through what medium do you hear about this stuff so often? 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

14 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Yeah, really. I have generally no interest in politics or similar. I'm sure I've probably heard a thing or two here and there but it's not been internalized as it has to my mind no direct impact on me personally. It's not exactly a topic of discussion that usually just pops up, and I don't read or watch the news, aside from occasionally looking at Reddit, and even then it's filtered specifically to my interests. 

Through what medium do you hear about this stuff so often? 

Taiwan / China issues get pretty regular news coverage over the years -- pretty much every new presidential cycle in the USA is another "will they / won't they" about directly acknowledging Taiwan, for instance.

And pretty much any news story about Chinese military or political expansion will touch on it, at some level.

In terms of "medium" -- pretty much every major print and radio news source covers it to some extent.

 

In terms of "direct impact on you personally" -- there is a fork in the road where either (1) Taiwan gets internationally recognized as a separate country, despite China's protestation, ultimately signaling a peak and decline in Chinese power or (2) China takes over Taiwan and the USA backs them up, militarily, quite possibly leading to WW3 or(3) China takes over Taiwan and the USA does nothing, ultimately signaling the peak and decline in USA power.

One of those 3 things eventually happens and affects all of us.

[Hammerfestus | 3,891]

2 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Taiwan / China issues get pretty regular news coverage over the years -- pretty much every new presidential cycle in the USA is another "will they / won't they" about directly acknowledging Taiwan, for instance.

And pretty much any news story about Chinese military or political expansion will touch on it, at some level.

In terms of "medium" -- pretty much every major print and radio news source covers it to some extent.

 

In terms of "direct impact on you personally" -- there is a fork in the road where either (1) Taiwan gets internationally recognized as a separate country, despite China's protestation, ultimately signaling a peak and decline in Chinese power or (2) China takes over Taiwan and the USA backs them up, militarily, quite possibly leading to WW3 or(3) China takes over Taiwan and the USA does nothing, ultimately signaling the peak and decline in USA power.

One of those 3 things eventually happens and affects all of us.

I personally think a decline in American power and influence would be a nice thing for a while.  Maybe cruising somewhere back in the pack for a while would really give us a chance to focus on US.  The chest pounding American exceptionalism crap gets old.

[Gloves | 11,843]

23 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Taiwan / China issues get pretty regular news coverage over the years -- pretty much every new presidential cycle in the USA is another "will they / won't they" about directly acknowledging Taiwan, for instance.

And pretty much any news story about Chinese military or political expansion will touch on it, at some level.

In terms of "medium" -- pretty much every major print and radio news source covers it to some extent.

 

In terms of "direct impact on you personally" -- there is a fork in the road where either (1) Taiwan gets internationally recognized as a separate country, despite China's protestation, ultimately signaling a peak and decline in Chinese power or (2) China takes over Taiwan and the USA backs them up, militarily, quite possibly leading to WW3 or(3) China takes over Taiwan and the USA does nothing, ultimately signaling the peak and decline in USA power.

One of those 3 things eventually happens and affects all of us.

1. I'm not American
   1. Further to this, I really don't follow your elections aside from "oh nice, a black dude president might happen" or "boy that Trump guy sure sucks, be weird if they voted him in again"; their policies really doesn't come into it for me
2. Lol newspapers and radio

[OptOut | 8,892]

9 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Before I reply to this, since I'm still being mentioned here, I want to make sure I understand things correctly. Is this correct?

• China had a government.
• That government got pushed out and eventually ended up on a neighbouring island.
• A new government formed on the mainland.
• The mainland government says they are the Chinese government and the island is a separate country.
• The island says they are the Chinese government and are part of the country referred to as China.
• The mainland government told vaccine companies not to sell their life saving medicine to the island and the island doesn't want to buy the vaccines Chinese companies are making because they're supposedly not effective.

Did I miss something? I read all of the links provided and while they all contradict each other, this is basically what I understand so far.

No, this is incorrect. At first BOTH the communist government of mainland China and the exiled nationalist government in Taiwan claimed to be the rightful government of all of China, which would also include Taiwan.

The communist government of China still holds this stance, and has indicated they are willing to retake Taiwan by force. The Taiwanese government no longer explicitly claims sovereignty over the whole of China, and at the very least does NOT seek reunification with China.

The current status quo of separate administrations and separate political identities of China and Taiwan is favoured by the government of Taiwan, so as to prevent escalation of political and economic repercussions or even the risk of full blown conflict. However, there is significant popular support in the country for full independence.

China, on the other hand, is just biding their time until they have a window of opportunity to take the island back, lock-stock. They have no interest in anything other than reunification, and will block any attempt or even slight movement whatsoever of Taiwan towards independence.

[Tulpa | 3,537]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

1. I'm not American
   1. Further to this, I really don't follow your elections aside from "oh nice, a black dude president might happen" or "boy that Trump guy sure sucks, be weird if they voted him in again"; their policies really doesn't come into it for me
2. Lol newspapers and radio

You can follow or not follow American or Geopolitical events, but I think we can agree that spouting off on a subject you have little knowledge of, such as calling it a "geography" issue rather than a political one that directly affects at least two active members of this forum is a little pigheaded.

[Gloves | 11,843]

6 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

You can follow or not follow American or Geopolitical events, but I think we can agree that spouting off on a subject you have little knowledge of, such as calling it a "geography" issue rather than a political one that directly affects at least two active members of this forum is a little pigheaded.

Oh yeah 100%. Not arguing that, just saying in general that not everyone keeps up with these things.

If @OptOut says there's a problem I take him at his word, and he has my support regardless of my personal ignorance around the subject matter.

I might think maybe it's a bit harsh to go off on John Cena about it, being that he's just a wrestler and I'd really not look to him for anything relating to something like this, and honestly I can imagine that Cena was likely hit from complete left-field if he was suddenly getting hate messages or whatever for saying something as (in his mind) harmful as stating that Taiwan is a country. He likely was told by his PR team "you need to apologize for this, it's a very heated political thing". 

It's CHINA we're talking about - literally like all big companies literally bow to their every whim. I am at least aware of that (as I say, the Taiwan as a country thing is really all I'm actually ignorant of here, I wasn't aware that that specifically was a point of contention). 

Anyway, I am no expert as I say. All I know is that Opt is pissed and I feel for him, and he has my support as a friend, again regardless of my own ignorance or opinion.

[Code Monkey | 2,014]

Wow. I had 5 paragraphs written but I deleted it because I really don't think people understand logic if they're upset enough about something.

I honestly didn't know anyone in our current society would listen to inaccuracies of a random nobody's speech and actually care that non-expert made a mistake which more than 10% of the persons in this thread have also made.

I would be ashamed and embarrassed to say that I got upset at someone for making such a trivial mistake, I would never treat someone like that.

[phart010 | 1,708]

2 hours ago, Hammerfestus said:

I personally think a decline in American power and influence would be a nice thing for a while.  Maybe cruising somewhere back in the pack for a while would really give us a chance to focus on US.  The chest pounding American exceptionalism crap gets old.

I hear what your saying, US military might can be excessive and even unfair at some times. But someone has to be in charge and the moment US steps down, someone else will step up and take our place as the dominant player. I dont intend this as praising the US, but honestly can’t think of any other country that I’d trust to fill that void more than the current US superpower.

[Daniel_Doyce | 477]

19 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Wow. I had 5 paragraphs written but I deleted it because I really don't think people understand logic if they're upset enough about something.

I honestly didn't know anyone in our current society would listen to inaccuracies of a random nobody's speech and actually care that non-expert made a mistake which more than 10% of the persons in this thread have also made.

I would be ashamed and embarrassed to say that I got upset at someone for making such a trivial mistake, I would never treat someone like that.

You're either being willfully obtuse or just trolling. Cena is not a random nobody, it isn't trivial, and it wasn't a mistake.

[Brickman | 4,020]

26 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Wow. I had 5 paragraphs written but I deleted it because I really don't think people understand logic if they're upset enough about something.

I honestly didn't know anyone in our current society would listen to inaccuracies of a random nobody's speech and actually care that non-expert made a mistake which more than 10% of the persons in this thread have also made.

I would be ashamed and embarrassed to say that I got upset at someone for making such a trivial mistake, I would never treat someone like that.

...this guy, seriously.

I think you will find that it is YOU who is wrong, not everyone else in this thread, you should be ashamed and embarrassed in regard to your comments.

[CMR | 522]

[OptOut | 8,892]

19 minutes ago, Shmup said:

...this guy, seriously.

I think you will find that it is YOU who is wrong, not everyone else in this thread, you should be ashamed and embarrassed in regard to your comments.

Thank you for this comment.

I feel it is no longer necessary nor probably healthy for me to continue dialogue with the pathetically uninformed, pitifully ignorant and emotionally-stunted troll, so I will no longer be replying directly to his comments.

I will, however, continue to welcome positive and understanding comments and also GENUINE questions about the political issues and history under discussion.

 

Also, I want to make it clear I understand WHY John Cena said what he said, and the difficult position he is in, from a professional stand-point. I don't hold anything against the guy personally, but he made a political statement, and my original FUCK YOU was my own political statement in response to that.

[Hammerfestus | 3,891]

5 hours ago, phart010 said:

I hear what your saying, US military might can be excessive and even unfair at some times. But someone has to be in charge and the moment US steps down, someone else will step up and take our place as the dominant player. I dont intend this as praising the US, but honestly can’t think of any other country that I’d trust to fill that void more than the current US superpower.

Really? Cuz we just spent the last 4 years having chosen a would be autocrat, who is a long time known swindler - who’s made billions from it - because he “gets us”.   Or maybe let’s discuss Iraq.  Better yet, let’s talk about the actual practical US - China relationship?  The one where our bloated consumerist husk has been reliant on Chinese goods for a long ass time? 

The world will not implode if the US is not in charge.  That’s complete jingoistic nonsense.  Continuing to exist as a people is not dependent on our hegemony.   To quote Daniel Tiger, “Sometimes things are different, and that’s ok”.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Hammerfestus

[LeatherRebel5150 | 1,056]

Im just going to throw out there, throw another tally for not knowing about it. All I ever knew was that China and Taiwan have an issue with each other. Thats about as far as my knowledge on the subject went. So im in Gloves and Code Monkeys camp there. That being said Ive learned some things reading this thread

[Tabonga | 2,345]

10 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

It is incredibly strange.

This was a hot issue from long before most of us here were even born, so to go through your entire life without ever having been aware of it is a pretty crazy perspective.

I remember it being in the news when I was very young (5 or 6) when the PRC shelled the islands of Quemoy and Matsu (which both sides claimed) in 1958.  It wasn't that I was particularly cognizant of such things at that young age but more that  it got extensive coverage on the news (on tv) 

[fcgamer | 4,754]

8 hours ago, OptOut said:

At first BOTH the communist government of mainland China and the exiled nationalist government in Taiwan claimed to be the rightful government of all of China

Ok here's the deal. The Qing Dynasty (last imperial dynasty of China) lost Taiwan to Japan due to war, Japan had control of the island for 50 years, from 1895 until 1945. 

The Qing Dynasty was overthrown in 1911 and Sun Yat-sen would briefly become the first leader of the government that formed after the Qing Dynasty, aka Zhonghua mingguo (The Republic of China).

This occurs on the mainland.

Later civil war would break out between the KMT (Kuo Ming Tang, the political party that Sun was a member of, and the CCP.

8 hours ago, OptOut said:

which would also include Taiwan.

No, Taiwan was legitimately under Japanese rule, the Qing Dynasty lost it earlier, and now there's a new government.

8 hours ago, OptOut said:

The communist government of China still holds this stance, and has indicated they are willing to retake Taiwan by force

Honestly don't like the word "retake" here, the Chinese Communist Party NEVER had control over Taiwan throughout the earth's history, period.

So there's no retaking, no reunification. 

8 hours ago, OptOut said:

China, on the other hand, is just biding their time until they have a window of opportunity to take the island back, lock-stock. T

Same as above, the CCP never had control of the island.

Taiwan went back to the ethnic Chinese (at this point being under control by the government called the Republic of China) at the end of World War II, when that government was forced to flee (mainland) China, they set up shop entirely on the island they gained control of in 1945 thanks to the end of WWII.

Not a CCP thing at all.

8 hours ago, OptOut said:

and will block any attempt or even slight movement whatsoever of Taiwan towards independence.

As President Tsai has said many times, no need to officially declare independence as we all know Taiwan isn't just a "one country, two systems" like Hong Kong was, or some funky administrative situation like Macao; it's literally an independent sovereign nation, the only thing gained from formally declaring independence, aside from possibly a war with China, is more recognition on the world sphere.

The reason China cares so much about Taiwan:

2. Taiwan is considered the "heart of Asia". It's location is extremely advantageous for China, as they want to grow their prominence in the world, through expansion and what not.

1. If China surrenders their claims on Taiwan, they basically are saying that their whole regime is a fraud. IMO, this is possibly one of the biggest issue at play.

The CCP bills themselves as being the true successor of the Qing Dynasty, with the Republic of China just being some sort of weird transitional period. 

Because the Republic of China lives on (in Taiwan, an island that has had relations with the mainland historically), the CCP can't fully legitimise themselves until Taiwan is under the yoke. 

It's ironic, as historically mainland China wanted little to do with Taiwan, an island known to be a haven for pirates.

 

[fcgamer | 4,754]

59 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

I remember it being in the news when I was very young (5 or 6) when the PRC shelled the islands of Quemoy and Matsu (which both sides claimed) in 1958.  It wasn't that I was particularly cognizant of such things at that young age but more that  it got extensive coverage on the news (on tv) 

I have the same experience only with the collapse of the USSR.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

10 hours ago, Gloves said:

1. I'm not American
   1. Further to this, I really don't follow your elections aside from "oh nice, a black dude president might happen" or "boy that Trump guy sure sucks, be weird if they voted him in again"; their policies really doesn't come into it for me
2. Lol newspapers and radio

 

1. It's not about whether you're American -- this is a major global issue.

While the issue has come and gone in coverage and prominence in the West, this has been a MAJOR "cold war" with enormous geopolitical stakes.

 

2. I thought it went without saying that I was also implying coverage by online "print" news sources.

Edited June 1, 2021 by arch_8ngel