I thought I was being a jerk if I use eBay to force a return on an AS-Is purchase.

[RH | 5,227]

I'm honestly trying to put myself in the sellers shoes on this one, and I can see a both sides and I'm split.  I'd appreciate thoughts.

I just bought an "AS-IS" Extron Matrix switch.  The seller said they didn't have to means to test this composite matrix and the audio also takes special phoenix connectors.  Although it's not hard to get a composite TV out, I can definitely understand that they'd have no way to test the audio.

However, when I finally got some BNC connectors for RCA composite connectors, I plugged the unit in, all the lights blink a few times, and on the inside of the unit I hear popping.  It is obvious that the unit is defective and it wasn't sold under the pretense that it was, in fact, defective.

So, on the one hand I bought an AS-IS unit and there's a good chance the seller never even tested it.  However, if he took the time to plug it in and look at if for 20 seconds, he would have seen it was defective and had he choose to sell it, he could have listed it as broken/for parts, which I obviously would not have bought.  I have requested a swap out because he had three of these units, and I'm waiting for the response, however, I have half a mind to request a refund through eBay. I'll gladly ship the unit back but it seems to me the least the seller could have done was plug the thing in and look at it.  That's what I would have done, and I definitely would have listed it as "For Parts" or more realistically in my case, I would have scrapped it because these things tend to only go for about $30-50 before shipping when they work.

What do you guys recommend?

EDIT

A lot has been learned since I started this. The seller still has the listing up since he had 3 units. It says AS-IS today, but searching eBay history, it was listed as Used when I submitted my purchase offer.

At some point they changed the description from Used to AS-IS. From my records, it looks like they did it after I submitted an offer, but before they either accepted the offer or I finished the purchase. If you go by the purchase date, I bought it after the description changed. However, since they changed the description after I submitted my offer, for one, I didn't know it changed and second, there was no proper way to bail on the sale since they didn't counter my offer and they just accepted it.

Sellers should be able to change descriptions like this with pending offers. I'm going to have to dig through details and date stamps, prove my point and get eBay involved in this one.

Edited May 25, 2021 by RH

[NierAutomata | 23]

Tbh seller should have sold it as "for parts" not "as is".

If you can't test it, sell it for parts, period. 

Do you have someone with a professional opinion to give you a price on how much it would take to repair it? Probably just a cheap blown capacitor. 

[RH | 5,227]

Just now, NierAutomata said:

Tbh seller should have sold it as "for parts" not "as is".

If you can't test it, sell it for parts, period. 

Do you have someone with a professional opinion to give you a price on how much it would take to repair it? Probably just a cheap blown capacitor. 

Well, I could probably do it because I've recapped a lot of my own hardware, but I admit I'm pretty novice beyond that.  These devices really are cheap, other than shipping, if you can be patient.  I was not so I "overpaid" by getting one shipped for about $100.  I did have to buy the BNC converters (not that expensive) and some specialty RCA-to-Phoenix connectors that some engineer happened to have made and was selling at $5 a pop.  So... when I added all of that up, this has been about a $250 purchase.  My point is, I might be able to get this repaired, but I don't know where to take it locally if I can't do it and I'm not looking to invest much more in this device.

Instead, I'd like to return it and next time I'll be patient looking for a cheap, shipped unit for hopefully as low as $50.

[Gulag Joe | 590]

To me, "as is" means "as is". Doesn't matter though, its ebay. The buyer is always favored. Send it back and tell them it's defective. And then watch them list it again without mentioning what you told them.

[A_Feisty_Pickle | 244]

Ebay would probably force the return if you wanted to go that route, but yes to me as-is sales should be final unless grossly misrepresented (items pictured is not how it was received. As in damaged, missing parts, etc)

 

EDIT: I guess I should say I'm assuming it was listed under "For parts, not working". If it's listed as "used" or "acceptable" then yes I would be a little more on your side. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by A_Feisty_Pickle

[Mega Tank | 1,101]

AUnfortunately As-is is exactly what that means. You buy the item as it is. If the seller does not have the means to test in any capacity, then that is a risk the buyer is willing to take.

 

eBay usually favora the buyer, so you can try returning. I always as a bunch of questions before buying stuff. The times I don't and the item arrives other than what I imagined, then it's my fault and I take the loss amd move on.

[RH | 5,227]

3 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

To me, "as is" means "as is". Doesn't matter though, its ebay. The buyer is always favored. Send it back and tell them it's defective. And then watch them list it again without mentioning what you told them.

Well, I am trying to be honest about this.  I know what eBay does and they side with the buyer 99% of the time.  Regardless, when I bought this, I agreed to what they outlined.  However, again, it really comes down the the expectation of what "AS-IS" means.

1 minute ago, A_Feisty_Pickle said:

Ebay would probably force the return if you wanted to go that route, but yes to me as-is sales should be final unless grossly misrepresented (items pictured is not how it was received. As in damaged, missing parts, etc)

I guess my main concern is what does "AS-IS" mean to most people.  To me, it's a way of saying untested, but if there is something that is obviously wrong, then "AS-IS" is not the right way to list the item.  And this case is kind of on that border line.  It was marked as untested, but I kind of assumed that, again, they would have at least plugged it in.  Sure, that is a "test" but it is a simple one.  Now, if they claimed they didn't have the power cable (which they didn't and was in the box) then sure, I could even give them a pass for not plugging it in.  But when all you have to do is hook it into the wall and make sure the light function properly, to me you've not done the minimal due diligence to NOT list it as for parts.

I'm only torn because I would do this and as seller, if I were to lazy to have done that minimal check, I'd be agitated with the buyer wanting to return it but, ultimately, I'd know that the least I could have done was plug the thing in.

I really do try to be honest about these things, but that's why I'd like to get the opinion of other sellers.  Am I cheating the seller if I force the return?  It really comes down to what is the proper defition of AS-IS? To me, it implies the seller does the minimum they can to verify that something might work, but no guarantees.  It's obvious to me, this guy didn't even do that, but should I really have expected that?

[RH | 5,227]

2 minutes ago, Mega Tank said:

AUnfortunately As-is is exactly what that means. You buy the item as it is. If the seller does not have the means to test in any capacity, then that is a risk the buyer is willing to take.

 

eBay usually favora the buyer, so you can try returning. I always as a bunch of questions before buying stuff. The times I don't and the item arrives other than what I imagined, then it's my fault and I take the loss amd move on.

This is probably the stance I will finally take if the seller does not offer to swap it.  Oh well.  Maybe I can fix it or find someone who can.

Sorry @Gloves, looks like I might not be selling you my gcomp for a while, if you decide to buy it.

[RH | 5,227]

Update, the seller responded and basically said "sorry, sold AS-IS.  This is the only unit of the three that turned on."

So, he did plug it in and did not mention that it flickers and pops.  He also does not mention in his sales that the other remaining units do not cut on.   Here is the BIN link:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/114670645476?ViewItem=&item=114670645476

I responded and politely mentioned that AS-IS implies you can't fully test something so it might work.  Of course, someone could say AS-IS, but then state it is defective or broken.  That's getting into the nuanced usage and definition of AS-IS, but there is no indication that I should expect this hardware to fail, when I now have the guy admitting he plugged it in before listing it.

[glazball | 176]

Are you really trying to debate what the definition of "as-is" is??

Condition listed as "For parts or not working" per your link.

You bought it knowing both of those things.  Don't be a jerk and return it.

[RH | 5,227]

2 minutes ago, glazball said:

Are you really trying to debate what the definition of "as-is" is??

Condition listed as "For parts or not working" per your link.

You bought it knowing both of those things.  Don't be a jerk and return it.

The seller just got back with me and responded "Oh, yours was the only one that worked.  We updated the sales to say "for parts"."  So what you are seeing changed in less that 5 minutes and it changed because I mentioned it.  I called them out on it and they are either lying about the popping/disfunction or it worked for them and it broke in shipping.  I can't prove either, and I am honest so I've decided to eat it but the fact that they changed the auction after I called them out feels a bit dishonest.

[spacepup | 2,488]

Well, you don't really KNOW that it produced any defects when they plugged it in.  Also, I don't blame them for changing the auction to be more thorough to avoid future issues.

Electricity is weird, plus it went through shipping - and as a seller, you never know what environment the buyer has or what circumstances they encountered problems with.  Too many variables.

Personally, as a buyer, if I see "AS IS," I just assume there is most likely a problem and stay away, opting to pay more for another listing.  You could maybe consider this a learning experience to avoid that in the future, because it is a gamble - sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.  

[RH | 5,227]

1 minute ago, spacepup said:

Well, you don't really KNOW that it produced any defects when they plugged it in.  Also, I don't blame them for changing the auction to be more thorough to avoid future issues.

Electricity is weird, plus it went through shipping - and as a seller, you never know what environment the buyer has or what circumstances they encountered problems with.  Too many variables.

Personally, as a buyer, if I see "AS IS," I just assume there is most likely a problem and stay away, opting to pay more for another listing.  You could maybe consider this a learning experience to avoid that in the future, because it is a gamble - sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.  

Well, again, I am resolving to just suck up the cost.  Maybe I can repair this one on my own and who knows, maybe they are being 100% honest and it did appear to work for them.  Truth is, I actually don't recall this being sold "AS-IS" but it could have been.  The item is listed as AS-IS, and when I went back to check it today, I saw that.  I can't prove it, but they might have actually changed the listing for the last two after I bought it.  I can't recall with eBay if you have a condition for either "AS-IS" and/or "For Parts" a to imply that something is certainly broken.

I am more than willing to buy some defective stuff.  I like getting broken systems and controllers and trying to fix them.  It's fun.  Maybe I just ignored what I should have paid attention to, but I'm quite certain that I wouldn't have gotten an AS-IS/broken unit for one of these.  I don't know what they are like on the inside, but from what I've heard Extron built to order so there are always potential for unique implementations for any given unit.

Well, whatever.  If I can't get it to work, it is what it is.  At least I didn't pay THAT much for it.  I'll just grab another in a few months.

[Californication | 1,491]

1 hour ago, RH said:

Update, the seller responded and basically said "sorry, sold AS-IS.  This is the only unit of the three that turned on."

So, he did plug it in and did not mention that it flickers and pops.  He also does not mention in his sales that the other remaining units do not cut on.   Here is the BIN link:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/114670645476?ViewItem=&item=114670645476

I responded and politely mentioned that AS-IS implies you can't fully test something so it might work.  Of course, someone could say AS-IS, but then state it is defective or broken.  That's getting into the nuanced usage and definition of AS-IS, but there is no indication that I should expect this hardware to fail, when I now have the guy admitting he plugged it in before listing it.

Initially I was going to say eat the cost. 

If they lied about knowing about it's functionality I would send it back, but would probably pay for the shipping.

[RH | 5,227]

1 minute ago, Californication said:

Initially I was going to say eat the cost. 

If they lied about knowing about it's functionality I would send it back, but would probably pay for the shipping.

The fact is, I don't know if they are lying.  I have to infer from their behavior after I spoke with them.  He told me he plugged it in, the lights came on and there was no popping as I described.  I should assume he's telling the truth, but again, after I spoke to him, he was quick to update the remaining two items which, to me, feels like he got caught.  But I don't know that, and can't prove that.

Sure, eBay would side with me and refund me, but I don't want to game the system for my benefit just because I'm unhappy.  IMHO, eBay should allow sellers to list items like this if they are just going to side with the buyer.  I know that's not an argument that helps me, but if eBay made it a hard policy that "AS-IS" or For Parts sales are always final, that'd be fair to everyone.  Of course, for multi-item sells, they then couldn't the sellers modify the post after multiple items have sold, or they would have to hold onto old post descriptions for traceability.  My gut tells me that if I am in the right, I bought a "working unit" and then the changed it to "AS IS" after I bought the one "working unit" and now they are trying to play the AS-IS side of the fence and I have no way (I think) of proving my theory. And I'm willing to admit that assumption could be wrong.  Maybe it was my mistake.

[AdamW | 714]

In future, take a screenshot of the auction at the time you bought it. Without that, it's hard to say who's in the right.

eBay will have a record of all changes made to the listing, but for the amount in question they probably wouldn't bother looking it up if you challenged it. They'd probably just side with you and make the seller eat a return. But that doesn't say who's right.

[bowser | 600]

16 minutes ago, AdamW said:

In future, take a screenshot of the auction at the time you bought it. Without that, it's hard to say who's in the right.

eBay will have a record of all changes made to the listing, but for the amount in question they probably wouldn't bother looking it up if you challenged it. They'd probably just side with you and make the seller eat a return. But that doesn't say who's right.

There should be a link to the history of changes made to the listing in the desktop site. I'm not sure how detailed it is though.

But in any case, when I see "as-is" I assume the seller tested it and it's not working. I mean, who is going to pass up the opportunity to make more money if it works? Very few sellers genuinely don't test and sell as is. IMO, "as-is" is the same as broken. If it turns out it's working then that's a bonus.

[YOURTURN | 1,258]

1 hour ago, Gulag Joe said:

The buyer is always favored.

I'm going to repeat the fact that your claim has been proven to be false in numerous eBay-related topics. 

Plus, there is an actual law in regards to "AS-IS" sales in the United States, this case has a very strong chance of being one as well. That is if @RH filed said case if the seller refused to do any returns. Because the only way eBay will overlook that part of the law is if the seller misrepresented the item in any way.

In this case the seller stated that they did not have the means to test out the product. This means that if it did work, taking it apart and selling it for parts could result in a potential buyer from getting one that still works. But if the buyer decided to buy it, with full knowledge that it might not work, they bought it for both that hope and for parts (if needed).

So all I can say is that buying something "AS-IS" is no different than anybody buying a lottery ticket. You choose to buy or not to buy, and you live with those results. But in this case, the seller made it clear that it might not work. And does not have to sell it as parts just in case it does.

Because of that they can choose to accept a return if they can still make money off it as parts. Otherwise, eBay has to favor them because they did not say or do anything that had mislead the unsatisfied buyer in some way. Which is often the case (as I had one situation like this that ruined one part of my Dreamcast game goals).

Plus, I will add that the seller might accept a return if RH is willing to discuss this with them. All the buyer needs is to know that they will not be screwed over in some way, and what they can do if they agree to have it be returned. 

[RH | 5,227]

2 minutes ago, FenrirZero said:

I'm going to repeat the fact that your claim has been proven to be false in numerous eBay-related topics. 

Plus, there is an actual law in regards to "AS-IS" sales in the United States, this case has a very strong chance of being one as well. That is if @RH filed said case if the seller refused to do any returns. Because the only way eBay will overlook that part of the law is if the seller misrepresented the item in any way.

In this case the seller stated that they did not have the means to test out the product. This means that if it did work, taking it apart and selling it for parts could result in a potential buyer from getting one that still works. But if the buyer decided to buy it, with full knowledge that it might not work, they bought it for both that hope and for parts (if needed).

So all I can say is that buying something "AS-IS" is no different than anybody buying a lottery ticket. You choose to buy or not to buy, and you live with those results. But in this case, the seller made it clear that it might not work. And does not have to sell it as parts just in case it does.

Because of that they can choose to accept a return if they can still make money off it as parts. Otherwise, eBay has to favor them because they did not say or do anything that had mislead the unsatisfied buyer in some way. Which is often the case (as I had one situation like this that ruined one part of my Dreamcast game goals).

Plus, I will add that the seller might accept a return if RH is willing to discuss this with them. All the buyer needs is to know that they will not be screwed over in some way, and what they can do if they agree to have it be returned. 

Again, I am choosing to drop it. But I looked further. eBay does have change history, but all they mention is what portion changed but no specifics. They made a change on May 17th to the "Description". That was after I bought the item. eBay doesn't show what changed and the guy told me they updated the AS-IS part after I bought the one "working" unit. Now, I don't know if that means that they ADDED "For Parts" as part of the AS-IS description, but from the way it is displayed, it is some canned eBay classification.

My guess is I bought it marked as some condition and after I bought it, that changed the description. Again, I don't know if it was from Good condition to AS-IS, or it was from AS-IS to AS-IS/For Parts, if that is even an option.

I may be getting screwed here, but I'd rather take the high road in case I am the one who made the mistake. It still stings, though.

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

As-is to me is code word for “doesnt work but dont want to sell it for parts/not working”

[docile tapeworm | 4,272]

2 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

As-is to me is code word for “doesnt work but dont want to sell it for parts/not working”

+1 

thats how i always interpret

[B.A. | 1,141]

8 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

As-is to me is code word for “doesnt work but dont want to sell it for parts/not working”

Yep, that means to me that it is broken. 

[Abelardo | 155]

It comes down to what exactly the seller entered in the Condition field, acceptable and above the item is expected to be in working condition even if sold as-is, if listed as not working/for parts then this is an expected outcome, I see the seller (intentionally or unintentionally) left some crucial info out of the description but if it was correctly listed as not working/for parts then that pretty much settles it.

[toma | 71]

Personally, I consider "as-is" to be a coin-flip as to whether it's working or not. I would only buy something listed like that if I had a pretty good idea how to fix it myself

[TDIRunner | 2,913]

I consider "as is" to be the same as "bring a trailer."