Survey Regarding the Potential of a New Video Game Grader in the Market

[kell | 102]

11 hours ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

Great idea but not viable for the Kansas City area most likely - seems more reasonable in an area with a much higher and more dense population although printing labels might be a bit challenging remotely but certainly not impossible.  Interesting concept though.

Think bigger, I would say. Or at least, think about it from the collector perspective:

Send "Joe" the grader to me. He spends a week and grades a certain amount of games. You give, maybe, a slightly reduced grading fee for volume and I pay reasonable expenses. I'm already having to pay hundreds in shipping to send to you (mostly insurance) and now my games don't leave my house and I don't have to wait months. Time is so valuable and at the current state of grading it could take me years to get games graded through WATA.

And as a new company, it could help you get some exposure and customers. I'd be hesitant to send a new company, with no history, high dollar games. You can come grade my whole collection (what's worth grading) or large chunks at a time: you gain market exposure faster as I flaunt my games and list them on auction sites, you gain a loyal customer whom, hopefully, will talk about what a great service it is while I mitigate the risk of sending a bunch of games to a new company and don't have to wait months/years to get a lot of games graded. Plus, with the right collector, like me, who has receipts, your graders could gain some great experience with proven authentic games. It's a win-win, I think.

Just the opinion of a frustrated collector and I'm sure there are things I'm not thinking of. 

I wish you nothing but success, OP. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by kell

[Gloves | 11,891]

7 minutes ago, kell said:

Think bigger, I would say. Or at least, think about it from the collector perspective:

Send "Joe" the grader to me. He spends a week and grades a certain amount of games. You give, maybe, a slightly reduced grading fee for volume and I pay reasonable expenses. I'm already having to pay hundreds in shipping to send to you (mostly insurance) and now my games don't leave my house and I don't have to wait months. Time is so valuable and at the current state of grading it could take me years to get games graded through WATA.

And as a new company, it could help you get some exposure and customers. I'd be hesitant to send a new company, with no history, high dollar games. You can come grade my whole collection (what's worth grading) or large chunks at a time: you gain market exposure faster as I flaunt my games and list them on auction sites, you gain a loyal customer whom, hopefully, will talk about what a great service it is while I mitigate the risk of sending a bunch of games to a new company and don't have to wait months/years to get a lot of games graded. Plus, with the right collector, like me, who has receipts, your graders could gain some great experience with proven authentic games. It's a win-win, I think.

Just the opinion of a frustrated collector and I'm sure there are things I'm not thinking of. 

I wish you nothing but success, OP. 

This is a service I could get behind. I've been talking to insurance agencies lately about insuring my collection and a point of contention has been "who is the authority on the value of these items, and have your items been appraised?".

I ain't boutta send out my entire collection to get appraised.

[Khromak | 787]

19 minutes ago, kell said:

Send "Joe" the grader to me. He spends a week and grades a certain amount of games. You give, maybe, a slightly reduced grading fee for volume and I pay reasonable expenses. I'm already having to pay hundreds in shipping to send to you (mostly insurance) and now my games don't leave my house and I don't have to wait months. Time is so valuable and at the current state of grading it could take me years to get games graded through WATA.

This is almost like a business plan. Like a unique offering that the rest of the industry isn't satisfying, which will allow you to capitalize on the problems people are experiencing (turnaround times, consistency, etc.). This is the best advice in the thread, may as well lock it now.

I think OP said "this won't work in the KC area" but uh...how much is a plane ticket to the customer's location? $300? You don't think you'll make that in fees when you grade their 50 items? I mean come on, put a minimum number of items on this or figure out some fee structure to make it viable, but this is literally business plan gold. Most customers would be willing to pay out the ass for this because it saves them in shipping costs, they might actually SAVE money by paying for transporting a human instead.

I can't believe nobody's thought of this before; maybe the graders just don't want someone breathing down their neck yelling at them that their childhood game is beautiful and they took it out of the shipping box themselves.

[Code Monkey | 2,023]

7 hours ago, fcgamer said:

You haven't got a clue mate, not a bloody clue.

From my understanding, the concept of the cib = cartridge, box, manual originated due to one Andrew Kraig's NES rarity list, which was heavily based on the popular Mike Etler list. This is the way Mr Kraig had set up his boxes, and one could tick off whatever pieces they had. NES collecting wasn't serious business back then though, with the acronym CIB ironically fitting perfectly with the first letters in cartridge, instructions, box, many unfamiliar with other hobby standards likely took this to be the meaning.

In other hobbies though, it stands for "complete in box". It's a totally different idea, and while some collectors won't care about styrofoam bricks or NP adverts, others do. Even more essential items, which casual collectors also value (z.B. maps), fail to fit into a "CIB = cartridge, instructions, box" framework.

To be using the definition you mentioned above is to be making a huge ass mistake, whether it be trying to poach off collectors from other hobbies, or pick up seasoned collectors. 

 

That's how Wata does it. I sent in my Super Mario Bros. 3 without the game specific Goomba insert and it came back CIB. They only care about the cartridge, manual and box for CIB grading.

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

10 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

WATA has succeeded in the business sense...

Lack of real competition has certainly helped them. 

[Code Monkey | 2,023]

7 hours ago, fcgamer said:

@Code Monkey Excellent questions and insight. I just copied that post and am sending it off to my business partner as we speak, it gives me a lot to think about.

This information is easily obtained through various sources. You can probably get a list of companies in that specific category from your federal government (in Canada anyway) because they have to file their taxes under a specific tax ID. Then you can also obtain their annual income and expenses from the same list. Also any company that has gone through IPO is publicly traded and each quarter's numbers are available.

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

9 hours ago, OptOut said:

You can be sure those WATA fuckers are happy as pigs in shit right now, NO question about that!

Hell yes they are (too busy at the bank to update the home page of the website even) but complacency can be the beginning of the end.  

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

7 hours ago, fcgamer said:

To be using the definition you mentioned above is to be making a huge ass mistake, whether it be trying to poach off collectors from other hobbies, or pick up seasoned collectors

I’m confused now (not surprising as it’s been pointed out how clueless I am) because the all powerful all knowing WATA defines it like this but I’m a moron because I’m not going to require the Nintendo Power subscription card or poster that might have been in a box 30 years ago. 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

1 hour ago, kell said:

Just the opinion of a frustrated collector and I'm sure there are things I'm not thinking of. 

I wish you nothing but success, OP. 

I like where your head is at on the concept. 
Thanks for the good wishes. 

[Gloves | 11,891]

42 minutes ago, Khromak said:

This is almost like a business plan. Like a unique offering that the rest of the industry isn't satisfying, which will allow you to capitalize on the problems people are experiencing (turnaround times, consistency, etc.). This is the best advice in the thread, may as well lock it now.

I think OP said "this won't work in the KC area" but uh...how much is a plane ticket to the customer's location? $300? You don't think you'll make that in fees when you grade their 50 items? I mean come on, put a minimum number of items on this or figure out some fee structure to make it viable, but this is literally business plan gold. Most customers would be willing to pay out the ass for this because it saves them in shipping costs, they might actually SAVE money by paying for transporting a human instead.

I can't believe nobody's thought of this before; maybe the graders just don't want someone breathing down their neck yelling at them that their childhood game is beautiful and they took it out of the shipping box themselves.

Keep in mind: It's not JUST a person you're sending to grade. If you're going to grade games, you're going to slab the games. They'd have to bring the slabs, and they'd need to KNOW ahead of time how many of each type to bring. This isn't just a $300 2-way plane ticket.

That said, as I say, a straight up APPRAISAL service would be amazing. Maybe a grading service with a time/date of grade for purely appraisal services, and no slab. 

The current existing market wants their games slabbed so they can sell them.

I and I'm sure others however exist in a whole new, currently (to my knowledge) untapped market which actually intends to KEEP their games FOR LIFE, but would be devastated in case of, say, a flood.

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

41 minutes ago, Khromak said:

maybe the graders just don't want someone breathing down their neck yelling at them that their childhood game is beautiful and they took it out of the shipping box themselves.

Certainly part of it and although very much worth exploring it’s much more complicated than a $300 plane ticket. 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

4 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Keep in mind: It's not JUST a person you're sending to grade. If you're going to grade games, you're going to slab the games. They'd have to bring the slabs, and they'd need to KNOW ahead of time how many of each type to bring. This isn't just a $300 2-way plane ticket.

Very true. And how many games can get graded in a day before an overnight hotel stay is in the mix. All things that could be worked out (like how to print labels remotely) most likely but like any business venture so many things in the mix that complicate even the greatest ideas. 

[Gloves | 11,891]

1 minute ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

Very true. And how many games can get graded in a day before an overnight hotel stay is in the mix. All things that could be worked out (like how to print labels remotely) most likely but like any business venture so many things in the mix that complicate even the greatest ideas. 

Honestly, as I've said quite early on in this thread - I am anti-slabbing CIBs. BUT, an appraisal service would be incredibly appealing to me. I have money in-hand ready to go if someone can provide that to me, literally right now.

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

3 minutes ago, Gloves said:

BUT, an appraisal service would be incredibly appealing to me. I have money in-hand ready to go if someone can provide that to me, literally right now.

Doesn’t seem like the market is nearly mature enough for that and changing incredibly fast. 

[AdamW | 713]

10 hours ago, OptOut said:

It wasn't ALL paid marketing and helping hands from interested parties, although man that shit started piling on QUICK... And, to this day, few people heavily criticise the actual GRADING aspect of WATA. They have earned a lot of respect for the expertise they demonstrate in knowing what they are grading and how to grade it...

Yeah, I think this is really important. I don't know a lot about much outside of Pokemon but I know a hell of a lot about the Pokemon games at this point, and from what they write on their tags I can tell WATA does also.

If VGA grades a copy of a Pokemon game the tag basically says "hey it's (Pokemon game X)", and...that's all. Recent WATA tags tend to provide exactly the correct information to specify which print it is, in a way which makes it obvious they've done quite a bit of detailed research about the different prints. Their recent tags for CIB graded copies are also getting a lot better about precisely identifying carts, manuals and packins.

I don't really know enough to have an opinion about which has the better system for grading quality, and all sorts of other factors, but when it comes down to just knowing and caring about the details of the thing they're grading, from what I know, WATA are making a good effort, a lot better than VGA.

For @VideoGameGradersLLC, here's a kinda question/challenge: how do you identify each of the five prints of Pokemon FireRed (US/Canadian release), and exactly what items should be in the box for each print for it to be authentically "complete in box"? For me, if you can answer that question correctly, you'd have my attention. But of course, for other people, you'd need similarly detailed knowledge about a whole ton of other games.

Edited March 11, 2021 by AdamW

[Gloves | 11,891]

Just now, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

Doesn’t seem like the market is nearly mature enough for that and changing incredibly fast. 

The market is plenty mature, it's simply seeing a bump, similar to something like Bitcoin right now (though retro games is significantly more mature). I can easily right now say "I have 1 BTC, that is worth 70k today", whereas my only answer to an insurance company regarding my game collection is "I have around $XX in games, according to average weighted valuations on this website you've never heard of".

Will valuations change, and quickly so? Yeah, absolutely. But at the very least if I had a number from a recognized professional to give to the insurance company, I'd not be totally fucked if my basement apartment gets flooded or set aflame.

[Hammerfestus | 3,922]

45 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Keep in mind: It's not JUST a person you're sending to grade. If you're going to grade games, you're going to slab the games. They'd have to bring the slabs, and they'd need to KNOW ahead of time how many of each type to bring. This isn't just a $300 2-way plane ticket.

That said, as I say, a straight up APPRAISAL service would be amazing. Maybe a grading service with a time/date of grade for purely appraisal services, and no slab. 

The current existing market wants their games slabbed so they can sell them.

I and I'm sure others however exist in a whole new, currently (to my knowledge) untapped market which actually intends to KEEP their games FOR LIFE, but would be devastated in case of, say, a flood.

Why would you ship anybody anywhere?  If someone were to provide a service where graders come to clients homes it makes more sense to simply find local graders and have them interact with you their employer remotely.  Zooms and such.  Only thing you should be shipping is slabbing materials otherwise what’s the point.

[Gloves | 11,891]

25 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

Why would you ship anybody anywhere?  If someone were to provide a service where graders come to clients homes it makes more sense to simply find local graders and have them interact with you their employer remotely.  Zooms and such.  Only thing you should be shipping is slabbing materials otherwise what’s the point.

I was just using the example provided. Obviously many experts more local to key regions would be preferable. 

Perhaps even having a storefront could be a boon, as well as a point of difference. 

[Hammerfestus | 3,922]

5 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I was just using the example provided. Obviously many experts more local to key regions would be preferable. 

Perhaps even having a storefront could be a boon, as well as a point of difference. 

Sorry.  I was just using your post to keep to the chain of thought.

[Khromak | 787]

5 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I was just using the example provided. Obviously many experts more local to key regions would be preferable. 

Perhaps even having a storefront could be a boon, as well as a point of difference. 

I mean I think that's the point, right? There aren't a lot of professional graders in Saskatchewan or South Dakota, right? So either you're shipping all 50 of your games to the company, or they're sending a grader out to your house to do the work there.

Personally I think a lot of people would go nuts over a service that said "hey, you want us to grade 15 NES games, 10 Genesis games, and 20 Turbografx games? We'll bring all those boxes on a plane with a portable printer and we'll be there on the 25th."

As to the expenses involved, I'm not a businessman (clearly) but if you can't figure out a way to make that math work, maybe neither are you? Maybe there needs to be a limit on the cost of the order, maybe it's a case-by-case, maybe the customer pays a premium for this in addition to the cost of the grading, WTF do I know I'm just some guy who likes to play old vidyas.

[kell | 102]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

Keep in mind: It's not JUST a person you're sending to grade. If you're going to grade games, you're going to slab the games. They'd have to bring the slabs, and they'd need to KNOW ahead of time how many of each type to bring. This isn't just a $300 2-way plane ticket.

That said, as I say, a straight up APPRAISAL service would be amazing. Maybe a grading service with a time/date of grade for purely appraisal services, and no slab. 

The current existing market wants their games slabbed so they can sell them.

I and I'm sure others however exist in a whole new, currently (to my knowledge) untapped market which actually intends to KEEP their games FOR LIFE, but would be devastated in case of, say, a flood.

 

38 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

Why would you ship anybody anywhere?  If someone were to provide a service where graders come to clients homes it makes more sense to simply find local graders and have them interact with you their employer remotely.  Zooms and such.  Only thing you should be shipping is slabbing materials otherwise what’s the point.

Both good ideas that could help expand services offered.

I assume GVN or PC could be used for value, however, I know there are inaccuracies with them and they don't cover 100% of the market, including UTLRA RAREZ, protos, or one-off items. I've talked to my insurance company a few times and they don't seem to have a clue, but assure me they are covered.  But I know if I had to ask them to pay up they'd challenge my values as most people have no idea what games are going for these days. 

Trained and certified local experts would be great and cut down on some of the expense and logistical issues with sending an expert.  Like someone mentioned, plenty of experts on this forum who may be interested in doing it as a side gig, hobby, second career, etc. 

Would be good to ease into additional services. I think WATA's approach of "We. Grade. Everything." may end up hurting them. Drives me nuts seeing low end games with WATA grades as mine sit in the WATA black hole.  I know it shouldn't, as everyone has a right to use the services as they see fit and I'm not special. But it does.

[Gloves | 11,891]

15 minutes ago, kell said:

Would be good to ease into additional services. I think WATA's approach of "We. Grade. Everything." may end up hurting them.

Considering that they don't grade everything, I have no issue with their false advertising hurting them, as it should.

Short term however, it's proven not to.

[GPX | 1,376]

4 hours ago, kell said:

Think bigger, I would say. Or at least, think about it from the collector perspective:

Send "Joe" the grader to me. He spends a week and grades a certain amount of games. You give, maybe, a slightly reduced grading fee for volume and I pay reasonable expenses. I'm already having to pay hundreds in shipping to send to you (mostly insurance) and now my games don't leave my house and I don't have to wait months. Time is so valuable and at the current state of grading it could take me years to get games graded through WATA.

And as a new company, it could help you get some exposure and customers. I'd be hesitant to send a new company, with no history, high dollar games. You can come grade my whole collection (what's worth grading) or large chunks at a time: you gain market exposure faster as I flaunt my games and list them on auction sites, you gain a loyal customer whom, hopefully, will talk about what a great service it is while I mitigate the risk of sending a bunch of games to a new company and don't have to wait months/years to get a lot of games graded. Plus, with the right collector, like me, who has receipts, your graders could gain some great experience with proven authentic games. It's a win-win, I think.

Just the opinion of a frustrated collector and I'm sure there are things I'm not thinking of. 

I wish you nothing but success, OP. 

I like the lateral thinking. Though I think there are significant roadblocks to “local delivery grading”.  

Already mentioned in some posts, slabbing is the key component of grading, and not just evaluating the grade. Therefore, plans in advance to bring in acrylic material, a grader, a person who does the acrylic wielding, a typist for the labelling, and maybe an extra person to do some research on an unusual CIB/seal that has not been identified before. That’s plenty of stuff to bring in to someone’s door!

The other thing that is obvious to me, is that whoever that is booked for a “come to my door and grade my stuff” service, they need to have general consumer confidence in the first place. Think about it, why would you take a plunge for some random bloke(s) to come to your door and handle your stuff just because “we have a great system to grade games”. It needs more than just blind faith, and likely an option after that grading company has already gained market confidence.

 

 

[GPX | 1,376]

3 hours ago, Gloves said:

The market is plenty mature, it's simply seeing a bump, similar to something like Bitcoin right now (though retro games is significantly more mature). I can easily right now say "I have 1 BTC, that is worth 70k today", whereas my only answer to an insurance company regarding my game collection is "I have around $XX in games, according to average weighted valuations on this website you've never heard of".

Will valuations change, and quickly so? Yeah, absolutely. But at the very least if I had a number from a recognized professional to give to the insurance company, I'd not be totally fucked if my basement apartment gets flooded or set aflame.

What you state, is the need for a professional gaming collection value appraiser. Which is different to grading-at-your-door. Bearing in mind, the former is about evaluating condition/worth, and the latter is evaluating condition and slabbing (they shouldn’t be responsible for evaluating worth).

 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

1 minute ago, GPX said:

But at the very least if I had a number from a recognized professional to give to the insurance company

Understand the need but you think getting the public game collecting crowd to trust you good luck with an insurance company trusting anybody new or that they haven't worked with (in bed with) for 100 years.