Survey Regarding the Potential of a New Video Game Grader in the Market

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

15 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Is the OP okay? He's been awfully silent, ran away like a puppy dog with its tail between its legs?

Still here, everyone else got quiet. Still working on everything that needs to happen to make this a reality. But I appreciate your concern.  

[Code Monkey | 2,014]

My previous question wasn't addressed about the publisher specific and game specific inserts and that is the question every single person will want answered first.

Even ignoring that, anyone starting any company has the same research to do, do you yet know the answers to these questions?

1. What is your potential market? This includes the specific demographic so you would want to figure out the gender, age group, ethnicity, income level, all of that about your specific target market. That enables you to do focused marketing. You can't just advertise on a video gaming forum and hope to hit your demographic, it doesn't work like that.
2. What is the total amount of money people spend on grading games per year? Collecting games? I had a business meeting with an investor last week and they knew their market was exactly 1.72 billion dollars which is information you should know. Do you know what your market capital is? Do you know which percentage of that market you are trying to obtain? This tells you exactly what your budget is for building your brand.
3. What is your goal? Is it to build up the company and run it? Most startups have a 2-4 year plan to build a company up to 7 figures, sell it and start something else. I've been involved with this multiple times, it's a very common thing with startup companies. Talk to any good entrepreneur and they've probably had 4-5 profitable exits in their career, they're not interested in running a company, they're interested in building a company and selling it.
4. Have you spoken with investors or are you trying to fund the company yourself? Many times investors can not only give you cash flow in your business but can also offer advice on your board of directors to help guide the company.
5. Have you purchased graded games from every other company out there? VGA? UKG? Wata? I would want to have a copy of everything my competition has so that I know how my product compares. You should have one of every type of product each company offers, you could even look into AFA and PSA for more options.

It sounds like you just saw something you liked and thought you could do it too. Maybe I'm wrong but that's not how a business startup works, there is a lot of research into knowing where you want it to go. And that's after all of the unanswered questions I posed to you recently. Good luck with it.

[kell | 102]

I would argue that since WATA has had my recent order, and my money, for over 4 months with no order status change, there is currently enough demand to support another VG grader. Some, with bigger collections, have enough games to keep a grader busy for months. 

Would love to see a service which would have a grader come to me and grade my games on site instead of having to do all these shipments. I'd pay for that.

Don't really understand the CIB angle, though.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

1 hour ago, kell said:

 Don't really understand the CIB angle, though.

Only reason WATA did it to begin with was to 1up VGA by offering something the "other guys" didn't - which is very good business sense when you're entering a new market and going against an entrenched rival (I do hope WATA fazes it out at some point, though).  But why this guy is going for CIB grading only to start off is utterly baffling to me.  If he was smart, he would essentially copy what WATA did to a 'T' since they've succeeded on every concievable level, in the business sense, in the last three years.  OP needs to go big or go home, fake it till you make it, broaden the current market available to him, don't shrink it, and go after the high-end consumers who are most likely to throw down the big bucks to get their shit graded.  This twinkle-toes "start small, go after budget people who like black boxes" isn't going to cut it.  Find another auction house to partner up with and 1up the guys who just 1up'd the original guys in this market...

[OptOut | 8,892]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Only reason WATA did it to begin with was to 1up VGA by offering something the "other guys" didn't - which is very good business sense when you're entering a new market and going against an entrenched rival (I do hope WATA fazes it out at some point, though).  But why this guy is going for CIB grading only to start off is utterly baffling to me.  If he was smart, he would essentially copy what WATA did to a 'T' since they've succeeded on every concievable level, in the business sense, in the last three years.  OP needs to go big or go home, fake it till you make it, broaden the current market available to him, don't shrink it, and go after the high-end consumers who are most likely to throw down the big bucks to get their shit graded.  This twinkle-toes "start small, go after budget people who like black boxes" isn't going to cut it.  Find another auction house to partner up with and 1up the guys who just 1up'd the original guys in this market...

This is so true, very very good advice! Hell, OP should be here fishing for TALENT here on VGS, not customers!

Based on his previous replies, it would seem he's already decided to target uninformed noob speculators entering the market for a quick buck. That's obviously not us.

BUT, what we COULD be offering him is a rich pool of DEEP knowledge EXACTLY like what his grading experts are going to need.

There are people here who can grade sealed. There are people here who know what goes in what box.

How about that, @VideoGameGradersLLC? Why don't you start a thread to HIRE help from experts right here?

Hell, you might even get to the point where people HERE start taking your company seriously!

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

8 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

My previous question wasn't addressed about the publisher specific and game specific inserts and that is the question every single person will want answered first.

CIB is widely accepted as manual, cartridge, box - we are well aware of various printing changes and changes to codes, seals, etc... and will be following a similar model to WATA in identifying MMP (aka IMP) mismatched parts.  Perhaps MMC (Mismatched Cart), MMM (MIsmatched Manual).  Additionally we will list other inserts in games as part of the information about games.

8 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Even ignoring that, anyone starting any company has the same research to do, do you yet know the answers to these questions?

Absolutely. We have, are and will continue to do a lot of research.

8 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

1. What is your potential market? This includes the specific demographic so you would want to figure out the gender, age group, ethnicity, income level, all of that about your specific target market. That enables you to do focused marketing. You can't just advertise on a video gaming forum and hope to hit your demographic, it doesn't work like that.

Yes.  Still fine tuning our marketing plans for go-to-market but yes we we have a defined target market and plans to reach them. 

8 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

1. What is the total amount of money people spend on grading games per year? Collecting games? I had a business meeting with an investor last week and they knew their market was exactly 1.72 billion dollars which is information you should know. Do you know what your market capital is? Do you know which percentage of that market you are trying to obtain? This tells you exactly what your budget is for building your brand.

I assume you aren't asking me to share details of our research on an Internet message board.  The concept of an exact budget at this stage is not realistic.  Also, keep in mind we aren't seeking investors on this message board.  It's a fair question but not something we are sharing publicly but we feel confident with our knowledge of the market that is growing. 

8 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

1. What is your goal? Is it to build up the company and run it? Most startups have a 2-4 year plan to build a company up to 7 figures, sell it and start something else. I've been involved with this multiple times, it's a very common thing with startup companies. Talk to any good entrepreneur and they've probably had 4-5 profitable exits in their career, they're not interested in running a company, they're interested in building a company and selling it.

We'd like to finish our case design before we start talking exit strategy but at my age I'm not looking for a long term job running a company but do enjoy building (this won't be my first) and either sell or turnover to trusted leadership.

8 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

1. Have you spoken with investors or are you trying to fund the company yourself? Many times investors can not only give you cash flow in your business but can also offer advice on your board of directors to help guide the company.

At this stage I'm doing research and fine tuning the business plan.  Agree that investors offer much more than cash flow.

8 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

1. Have you purchased graded games from every other company out there? VGA? UKG? Wata? I would want to have a copy of everything my competition has so that I know how my product compares. You should have one of every type of product each company offers, you could even look into AFA and PSA for more options.

Not UKG yet but yes on WATA and VGA.

8 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

It sounds like you just saw something you liked and thought you could do it too. Maybe I'm wrong but that's not how a business startup works, there is a lot of research into knowing where you want it to go. And that's after all of the unanswered questions I posed to you recently. Good luck with it.

Isn't that how ideas start - something people like and think they do.  I certainly wouldn't start a business doing something I didn't like and didn't think I could do.  I know how business startups work.  

I respect and appreciate the feedback from you and most others but am surprised (maybe I shouldn't be) at how many people have defaulted to anything I haven't specifically shared or outlined in great details means it's because I'm moron who doesn't know anything. 

 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

4 hours ago, kell said:

I would argue that since WATA has had my recent order, and my money, for over 4 months with no order status change, there is currently enough demand to support another VG grader. Some, with bigger collections, have enough games to keep a grader busy for months. 

We agree.

4 hours ago, kell said:

Would love to see a service which would have a grader come to me and grade my games on site instead of having to do all these shipments. I'd pay for that.

Great idea but not viable for the Kansas City area most likely - seems more reasonable in an area with a much higher and more dense population although printing labels might be a bit challenging remotely but certainly not impossible.  Interesting concept though.

4 hours ago, kell said:

Don't really understand the CIB angle, though.

It's being reconsidered.  As I said from the beginning, early in the process nothing set in stone.

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

2 hours ago, OptOut said:

This is so true, very very good advice! Hell, OP should be here fishing for TALENT here on VGS, not customers!

Was looking for feedback not necessarily customers. 

2 hours ago, OptOut said:

Based on his previous replies, it would seem he's already decided to target uninformed noob speculators entering the market for a quick buck. That's obviously not us.

I knew a few helpful, respectful responses wouldn't last from you.  You can look down on people who don't know as much as this rather small group of super video game snobs but there is a huge market beyond this group and I've always known that.  We will have a lot of resources on our website to informed those new to the hobby, not looking to take advantage of anyone - we are working towards offering a quality service to a growing market. 

2 hours ago, OptOut said:

BUT, what we COULD be offering him is a rich pool of DEEP knowledge EXACTLY like what his grading experts are going to need.

There are people here who can grade sealed. There are people here who know what goes in what box.

How about that, @VideoGameGradersLLC? Why don't you start a thread to HIRE help from experts right here?

Hell, you might even get to the point where people HERE start taking your company seriously!

Anyone in the KC area want to send me your resume?  Let me know, happy to take a look.  Hopefully your interview skills are better than your message board etiquette. 

 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

2 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Only reason WATA did it to begin with was to 1up VGA by offering something the "other guys" didn't - which is very good business sense when you're entering a new market and going against an entrenched rival (I do hope WATA fazes it out at some point, though).  But why this guy is going for CIB grading only to start off is utterly baffling to me. 

You aren't the only one, and this feedback is certainly appreciated.  I've explained my reasoning you are certainly welcome to your opinion.  

If he was smart, he would essentially copy what WATA did to a 'T' since they've succeeded on every concievable level, in the business sense, in the last three years. 

12 month turnaround times?  Only speaking on population when it benefits them?  The homepage of their website STILL showing their holiday shutdown from December? It takes 1 minute to take that down. WATA has had struggles, all new businesses do. 

OP needs to go big or go home, fake it till you make it, broaden the current market available to him, don't shrink it, and go after the high-end consumers who are most likely to throw down the big bucks to get their shit graded.  This twinkle-toes "start small, go after budget people who like black boxes" isn't going to cut it. 

Okay, thanks for your feedback. 

Find another auction house to partner up with and 1up the guys who just 1up'd the original guys in this market...

Working on it.

 

[Code Monkey | 2,014]

16 minutes ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

CIB is widely accepted as manual, cartridge, box - we are well aware of various printing changes and changes to codes, seals, etc... and will be following a similar model to WATA in identifying MMP (aka IMP) mismatched parts.  Perhaps MMC (Mismatched Cart), MMM (MIsmatched Manual).  Additionally we will list other inserts in games as part of the information about games.

Absolutely. We have, are and will continue to do a lot of research.

Yes.  Still fine tuning our marketing plans for go-to-market but yes we we have a defined target market and plans to reach them. 

I assume you aren't asking me to share details of our research on an Internet message board.  The concept of an exact budget at this stage is not realistic.  Also, keep in mind we aren't seeking investors on this message board.  It's a fair question but not something we are sharing publicly but we feel confident with our knowledge of the market that is growing. 

We'd like to finish our case design before we start talking exit strategy but at my age I'm not looking for a long term job running a company but do enjoy building (this won't be my first) and either sell or turnover to trusted leadership.

At this stage I'm doing research and fine tuning the business plan.  Agree that investors offer much more than cash flow.

Not UKG yet but yes on WATA and VGA.

Isn't that how ideas start - something people like and think they do.  I certainly wouldn't start a business doing something I didn't like and didn't think I could do.  I know how business startups work.  

I respect and appreciate the feedback from you and most others but am surprised (maybe I shouldn't be) at how many people have defaulted to anything I haven't specifically shared or outlined in great details means it's because I'm moron who doesn't know anything. 

 

I hope it works out for you.

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

Just now, Code Monkey said:

I hope it works out for you.

I'm not sure if that's sarcasm or not but if not I appreciate it. 

[OptOut | 8,892]

7 minutes ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

I knew a few helpful, respectful responses wouldn't last from you.

HEY! Not cool! I'm a helping!!! 

 

[Code Monkey | 2,014]

2 minutes ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

I'm not sure if that's sarcasm or not but if not I appreciate it. 

Not sarcasm, I recognize the fact that I don't know you and you could very well be an expert in all of this.

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

3 minutes ago, OptOut said:

HEY! Not cool! I'm a helping!!! 

Yes, most of the time.  Those times are greatly appreciated. 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

3 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Not sarcasm, I recognize the fact that I don't know you and you could very well be an expert in all of this.

Thank you.  And I don't know everything but I do more than people are assuming.  

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

And hey, you can all still be the first $7 donor! https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-new-choice-in-video-game-grading/x/26014252#/

 

[OptOut | 8,892]

Just now, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

Yes, most of the time.  Those times are greatly appreciated. 

Yeah, well sure, I've been giving you a hard time! But, your customers are gonna be expecting a lot from you too, way more than little ol' me, once they start putting the big bucks down!

And as for WATA and all their cronies and hangers-on and cheerleaders? Dude, you ain't seen NOTHING yet!

You should be thanking me dude, this is your baptism of fire!  

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

1 hour ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

12 month turnaround times?  Only speaking on population when it benefits them?  The homepage of their website STILL showing their holiday shutdown from December? It takes 1 minute to take that down. WATA has had struggles, all new businesses do. 

...And yet they are already considered the de facto standard for grading services in spite of all of that!  Like I said, WATA has succeeded in the business sense...

[YOURTURN | 1,257]

4 hours ago, kell said:

I would argue that since WATA has had my recent order, and my money, for over 4 months with no order status change, there is currently enough demand to support another VG grader. Some, with bigger collections, have enough games to keep a grader busy for months. 

This is one of a few reasons why I chose to submit two of my games to Collector Archive Services.

For beginners, they also grade video games. Standard-sized sealed video games cost around $49.99, plus an additional $15.00 if the sender wanted their "Museum" upgrade. They will also deduct $2.50 if they do not want said item graded. Plus they also do custom cases, which means they can create a case where their label is seen above the game. But I cannot confirm that they will add an additional charge for that type of customization. Plus customer service has been very punctual this year. Which has me believe that I will get my orders back within their 30-60 day timeline.

In all cases I will have a review of their work when everything is complete.

4 hours ago, kell said:

Would love to see a service which would have a grader come to me and grade my games on site instead of having to do all these shipments. I'd pay for that.

You mean the same type of service that both comic book and card graders offer, right? 

4 hours ago, kell said:

Don't really understand the CIB angle, though.

It's one of those things where people aim for a complete box set of a game they cannot find sealed. Or more commonly afford if a sealed copy was available. Realistically speaking, it is not a new trend because vintage Transformers, etc. collectors have been doing it long before Wata helped make it a thing.

In the end Wata's current asking price is the reason why I am shelving my plans to have my lone CIB graded.

[OptOut | 8,892]

35 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

...And yet they are already considered the de facto standard for grading services in spite of all of that!  Like I said, WATA has succeeded in the business sense...

They have the confidence of the market! People trust them, and their expertise. They hit the OG collectors hard in the beginning, and used their clout inside the hobby to build up a solid reputation early on.

I remember the excitement and enthusiastic support they got from the community when they first announced their service, it was amazing to see the goodwill they had built up right out the gate.

It wasn't ALL paid marketing and helping hands from interested parties, although man that shit started piling on QUICK... And, to this day, few people heavily criticise the actual GRADING aspect of WATA. They have earned a lot of respect for the expertise they demonstrate in knowing what they are grading and how to grade it... Even if they happily grade reproductions, which I personally think is their BIGGEST misstep when it comes to tarnishing the reputation of their actual service...

They make mistakes sometimes, sure, as do VGA. But, pound for pound, those don't really amount to much. Certainly I doubt any of the big money customers selling on HA give a single crap about that sort of thing...

As for the 12 month wait times? High prices? These are consequences OF their success, not necessarily huge blows against it... Especially seeing as we are living through a CRAZY boom in the collectables market ATM, and EVERYONE is booked out the wazoo... You can be sure those WATA fuckers are happy as pigs in shit right now, NO question about that!

 

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,169]

goodluck op. I answered your survey. WATA has been slipping lately. I recently went back to VGA. No company in the scene is perfect. There is plenty of room for competition. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by WalterWhiteJr.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

@Code Monkey Excellent questions and insight. I just copied that post and am sending it off to my business partner as we speak, it gives me a lot to think about.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

5 hours ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

CIB is widely accepted as manual, cartridge, box - we are well aware of various printing changes and changes to codes, seals, etc... 

You haven't got a clue mate, not a bloody clue.

From my understanding, the concept of the cib = cartridge, box, manual originated due to one Andrew Kraig's NES rarity list, which was heavily based on the popular Mike Etler list. This is the way Mr Kraig had set up his boxes, and one could tick off whatever pieces they had. NES collecting wasn't serious business back then though, with the acronym CIB ironically fitting perfectly with the first letters in cartridge, instructions, box, many unfamiliar with other hobby standards likely took this to be the meaning.

In other hobbies though, it stands for "complete in box". It's a totally different idea, and while some collectors won't care about styrofoam bricks or NP adverts, others do. Even more essential items, which casual collectors also value (z.B. maps), fail to fit into a "CIB = cartridge, instructions, box" framework.

To be using the definition you mentioned above is to be making a huge ass mistake, whether it be trying to poach off collectors from other hobbies, or pick up seasoned collectors. 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by fcgamer

[GPX | 1,374]

2 hours ago, OptOut said:

They have the confidence of the market! People trust them, and their expertise. They hit the OG collectors hard in the beginning, and used their clout inside the hobby to build up a solid reputation early on.

I remember the excitement and enthusiastic support they got from the community when they first announced their service, it was amazing to see the goodwill they had built up right out the gate.

It wasn't ALL paid marketing and helping hands from interested parties, although man that shit started piling on QUICK... And, to this day, few people heavily criticise the actual GRADING aspect of WATA. They have earned a lot of respect for the expertise they demonstrate in knowing what they are grading and how to grade it... Even if they happily grade reproductions, which I personally think is their BIGGEST misstep when it comes to tarnishing the reputation of their actual service...

They make mistakes sometimes, sure, as do VGA. But, pound for pound, those don't really amount to much. Certainly I doubt any of the big money customers selling on HA give a single crap about that sort of thing...

As for the 12 month wait times? High prices? These are consequences OF their success, not necessarily huge blows against it... Especially seeing as we are living through a CRAZY boom in the collectables market ATM, and EVERYONE is booked out the wazoo... You can be sure those WATA fuckers are happy as pigs in shit right now, NO question about that!

 

I think there is some real juice and meat to this post. I think it needs to be acknowledged that consumer confidence is what will drive up a business, and everything else is likely to be seen as advertising propaganda.

VGA has the heads up on anyone before it, because they’ve had many years of grading experience from other fields. So consumer confidence was likely there right from the start. Wata took it from another vantage point, with CIB grading and having a significant level of support from some big collectors in the grading scene. Again, consumer confidence and support was there from the outset. 

So whilst I can appreciate new entries in the grading services, I would like to ask “what’s the vantage point to make consumer confidence be swayed?” 

Some examples which might make me prop up and listen:

- new service has more full time staffing than any current grading service

- new service has graders who have collections built from over 20 years and can verify who they are and/or their collections

- they have ties to many big collectors who are willing to try out their service. 

 

[CIB_Wholesale | 418]

5 hours ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

goodluck op. I answered your survey. WATA has been slipping lately. I recently went back to VGA. No company in the scene is perfect. There is plenty of room for competition. 

have not graded in a while. If companies spend their money on grading and gaming instead of promotion and propaganda then i'm a customer