Console Debate #10: Turbo Grafx 16/PC Engine

[fox | 1,668]

35 minutes ago, elprincipe said:

I've seen everything from the topic name here

That is because like it was um a test.  Yes congratulations, you passed!

[Tanooki | 4,940]

17 hours ago, Sumez said:

That's 100% fair.

It's not fair to base your evaluation of the system on what the US branch did, though. That would be like saying the Saturn doesn't have any shooters, or that the X360 was a massive failure because it sold poorly in Japan.  

Oh I know that.  I've grown just to do the opposite of what you said.  I dismiss the existence of the US market instead of damning them for it.  When I talk about NEC I talk about the PC Engine because that's where it was allowed to be handled properly so that's where I evaluate its merit on.  If I based my merit system of the TG16 on the US market alone, I'd put it in the toilet down by the Jaguar or something where you have a few decent to great games, but so much utter crap, false starts, and badly done work so they had it coming.  I feel the same about Saturn as I had that too 20 years back, I imported a fair few games for that and kept my action replay 4+ handy at all times.  I enjoyed the Saturn far more than the PS1, given I dismissed the holes of the US side and imported things.

[Webhead123 | 679]

3 hours ago, The Strangest said:

I didn’t vote because I don’t feel I have enough experience actually playing the library, but one thing I’ve always heard when getting into TG16/PCE is that the community surrounding it is... abrasive.

That’s not a fault of the system or its library, just something I’ve heard more than once.

Interesting. I'm not tapped into any of it but maybe it's down to the very fierce collector's market, since supply of anything for the console is very limited compared to the other popular systems. That's just speculation though.

[Tanooki | 4,940]

Well I was semi-into it, at least on a traditional forum side, more so with the social media ends of it and only recently exited as I just didn't care to have that much stuff joined to.  There are some jerks, it's nothing within any reason of the grade A twats over at the neo geo forum.  You do have some who get testy and abrasive, but NintendoAge had that rep too and it wasn't loaded with wankers either.  The thing is due to it being a more scarce supply, and because fly by night collectors and those with more money than smarts jumped into it and took an obscure item and soured the pool permanently years ago people get edgy about it.  There was of course for a great many years of the last decade of TG16 slipping into expensive hell, that was Japan, but that now too has been triggered by scum about a year or so before the virus shenanigans of 2020.  Japan was getting picked off so hard they caught on and jacked up their prices as bad or worse than the US inflated stuff, especially on exclusives so now it's like this neo-geo aes "lite" level of wallet abuse if you're a 'real collector' who want quality well treated complete (down to even the sleeve, extra, or spine card) stuff it's getting repulsive.

 

The only really nasty stuff I see is people getting vicious over PCE Works and because of a decade old grudge over the guy producing some 1:1 quality copies of key expensive games (like Sapphire for Arcade Card/CD) and acting like he had permission and all that when he didn't.  Long ago apologized, and has since branded every good with their label, gives away free copies of games and other fluff with every order now too, and all the while still using an industry mastering level device for pressing discs, silk screening the art, and producing the paper parts as well.  Throw PCE Works around on the PCE proboards or any of the decently tread facebook groups and it'll get into a brawl, insults, and white knights trying to educate people.

[Sumez | 2,968]

9 hours ago, elprincipe said:

Are there any other systems that people misspell the name of a lot?

You'd be surprised how often I see people talking about "Commandore 64"
EDIT: Forgot about the Game Boy Advanced

  

8 hours ago, The Strangest said:

but one thing I’ve always heard when getting into TG16/PCE is that the community surrounding it is... abrasive.

As someone who's been pretty into PC Engine for the better part of two decades, I've never experienced that.
You must be thinking of the Neo Geo community.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Sumez

[Sumez | 2,968]

3 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Throw PCE Works around on the PCE proboards or any of the decently tread facebook groups and it'll get into a brawl, insults, and white knights trying to educate people.

Bring up professional looking bootlegs that litter eBay and turns purchasing games into a hellish minefield in any video game community, and you'll get the same result.

People can copy whatever they like in their own home, but I have no love for any person who makes money from selling pirated video games, no matter what their mindset is about it.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Sumez

[Strange | 1,700]

2 hours ago, Sumez said:

As someone who's been pretty into PC Engine for the better part of two decades, I've never experienced that.
You must be thinking of the Neo Geo community.

That seems to be the consensus  I’m far too priced out of the Neo Geo scene to even grace their doorstep

[Tanooki | 4,940]

22 hours ago, Sumez said:

Bring up professional looking bootlegs that litter eBay and turns purchasing games into a hellish minefield in any video game community, and you'll get the same result.

People can copy whatever they like in their own home, but I have no love for any person who makes money from selling pirated video games, no matter what their mindset is about it.

Well that's one thing we're divided on then, the whole agree to disagree.  Personally I feel Tobias contributes a valuable service given his stuff quality wise is 1:1 down to the factory quality pressing of everything across the board.  I'm not going to go down that whole nasty argument of knocking down inflated numbers by any good means thing as it'll get ugly.  Just as much as it would by supporting it at that time.   Since they are now all branded, despite Sapphire uniquely not being.

That's the issue, a decade plus old spat that has been long repeatedly apologized for and has since been corrected on everything since being quite clear it's 1:1 quality, other than the PCE Works emblem on it all, so it's really no different than this or the old NA groups idea of it can look perfect, if you write reproduction or brand it in some method, which he does.

I had his RayXanber II+III package, Dracula X 2 pack with the blu-ray history/walkthrough(the maker of it gave me it as a thanks), fantasy star soldier english, and the gimmes of bonk 1 and 2.  Quality was insane, all above board, and given what they go for...well well worth it.  RayXanber II+III together is over a couple hundred each and it's worn used goods, new $50USD.  I'd totally be on board since I've given up on the CD side, buying a select few knockoff HuCards too, they're close, but not 1:1 so no one ever complains other than snobs.  There is a solid community of those re-pressing these old nasty priced games, one in particular will press whatever even as a 2in1 hucard too which is cool.

[Sumez | 2,968]

I don't really care about "snobs", collectors or the whole 1:1 reproduction thing here.

You're arguing in favor of selling and purchasing clearly non-legit products for real money, that's where the whole argument both begins and ends for me.
I'm perfectly well aware of the moral grey area and every single argument on both sides of the matter. What people choose to make for themself in that regard is none of my business. But in this context, a person turned an obviously illegal action into a business that he profits from, you can't fault people for condemning that. And it definitely does not translate into PCE community being abrasive.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Sumez

[Tanooki | 4,940]

Well that's your choice.  You're telling me you've never at your time on NintendoAge, here, elsewhere bought a single game that wasn't just legit homebrew?  I'm talking any of the nolan's stolen prototypes they had no right to sell given they only really bought the boards, not the code on them, or ever someones translation of a Japanese game on a cart or CD?  I kind of find that hard to believe.  And he already had that business going, not sure why he did that one with sapphire, but he paid for it in years ago, just some vultures never know when to quit despite doing everything right since.  Childish cancel culture tactics before it was even a term or a tactic in play which is just sad.

[Sumez | 2,968]

I'm not sure what you're implying? Why should I buy a bootleg?

[Tanooki | 4,940]

Why not?  And the implication wasn't one, it was more of an open question if you ever over at NA ever bought one of those limited releases that weren't truly legit homebrew or any of the other options I listed like translation hacks?  There's nothing wrong with buying a bootleg if you want to play, have something physical, and don't want to pay some slickster or a hoarder $100 on this $1000 on that.  Get a newly made one and just enjoy it for what it is, a game.

[Sumez | 2,968]

No, I'm asking a legit question.
I'm not going to delve into whether piracy is "right" or "wrong", but if you're getting a piece of illegal software anyway, what is the point in paying someone money for it? Why should someone be able to make money off other people's products?

Edited January 17, 2021 by Sumez

[Tanooki | 4,940]

I don’t see a problem with paying someone a nominal fee based on their time and costs. Like if someone offered me right now a translated For The Frog the Bell Tolls in a passable copy in English I’d buy that. Nintendo won’t do it. Just like much of what he peddles the companies show no or little care and paying someone’s hundreds or thousands snarking it is less palatable. 

[TDIRunner | 2,744]

On 1/12/2021 at 1:38 AM, Sumez said:

 

As someone who's been pretty into PC Engine for the better part of two decades, I've never experienced that.
You must be thinking of the Neo Geo community.

Then you must have never visited pcenginefx.com before it burned to the ground about 6 months before Nintendo Age was sold.  That site was extremely abrasive to anyone who might have hinted that they were more of a "collector" than a "gamer."  They were extremely harsh to anyone who brought up value, collecting or hoarding.  I managed to hang around and mostly lurk without attracting any negative attention my way, but I saw a lot of new people come and quickly go due to negative backlash.  You had to chose your words very carefully, which is why I didn't spend too much time around there.  Their knowledge of PC Engine and TG16 was above anywhere else and if you needed info, it was the best place to go.  These guys owned and played these games from when they were still active and I think they didn't like the idea of the popularity that this system gained in recent years.  

Edited January 18, 2021 by TDIRunner

[Tanooki | 4,940]

That sounds about right, they turtle shelled and got aggressively defensive about their love.  I probably would have gone along with that group and how they ultimately ended up treating people too given how old it was.  That site is from around 1996 and the first workable interface I can find on the web archive for 1996 and the first ok working copy of it (sort of) is 1998/99 on there and I remember it very well.  Back then I was a member, stuck around for years into the 00s at some point.  I had my duo from 97 until 2005, and had I never been forced to dump most my stuff due to lack of money over a long period I probably would have stayed.  Those who stuck around from then until it got nasty in the 2010s surely got mad at what was going on, and I can't blame them, I got pissed off too.  Why?  Defensive tactic.  The old, the best defense is a good offense.

When the NES went stupid 10 years ago the first non-Nintendo was NEC(TG/PCE) and aggravatingly enough the NEC stuff never retreated, likely due to money hungry and prestige seeking posers crowding a space with a vastly inferior supply of product compared to Nintendo.  It's entirely understandable why anyone would get defensive, a more import friendly system, grossly locally disrespected and ignored, mocked even, suddenly has all these fake fans show up because it has monetary value.  That really really pissed that group off and they had every right to get angry and not want to put up with those types.  Did they go about it the right way, maybe at first, but when it was a lost cause, not really in the least bit.  But I get it, why welcome in the garbage causing the headache when you can have a little oasis from the problem.

[asmikace | 68]

As much as I like the system, I am giving it a 7 or 8 since of the poor western distribution and various system variations that worked or failed making it bit of a chore to fully experience the system. I give the Genesis and SNES one point over it but the TG16/PC Engine is still an experience to play and deserves its golden standing.

I also have to add if we are talking about CD attachment, I give the TG/PC a solid 8 or close to a 9, much higher than the Sega Cd which I would give it a 6 or 7 if I am generous since there are much more timeless games that made use of the CD than awful FMV games.

Edited January 18, 2021 by asmikace

[TDIRunner | 2,744]

3 hours ago, Tanooki said:

......

I understood the reasons for the defensive nature over there, but I never condoned it.  That's the main reason why I tried to remain neutral through all of it.  I was basically just there for the hard to find information on those systems, and that site was the best source for it (which is why it was such a shame that the site fell apart the way it did).  I also managed to buy my Duo R from there for a price that was a great deal at the time and would be considered highway robbery today.  

But regardless, I only brought it up because that site was the primary reason why the community is often considered "abrasive."  

[Sumez | 2,968]

7 hours ago, TDIRunner said:

That site was extremely abrasive to anyone who might have hinted that they were more of a "collector" than a "gamer."  They were extremely harsh to anyone who brought up value, collecting or hoarding.

I don't have any experience of that, but I guess that could be perceived as abrasive.

On the other hand, you can't really blame them, can you? As someone who's been into classic/old/retro/any video games for several decades now, it's extremely depressing to see pretty much every community dedicated to that stuff kicking the bucket over the past 5+ years, due to the absurd rise in video game collecting as a "hobby" over that same period of time. People more obsessed with buying games than playing them have been showing up everywhere, outnumbering the people who were more into the latter, causing any attempt to discuss those aspects to get buried immediately.

Check out any "generic" community like r/retrogaming, and nearly all the posts are stuff like what did people get for their collection, what is the value of this and that etc. while the actual talk about actual games rarely surmounts to more than "ghosts n goblins sure is really hard hurh hurh" or "check it out I'm playing this cool game I remember from my childhood".

If you think collecting and speculating in the value is game is fun, I can understand if the attitude that that stuff isn't welcome can be pretty hostile, but then look at how every time the PC Engine is brought up in here people immediately talk about how the current prices and collecting landscapes makes it extremely hard to really get into. I can totally understand why people who are really passionate about the PC Engine (myself included) didn't want that to happen.

EDIT: I see Tanooki pretty much touched on the same points. Though I think outside of the collector's market making the games unapproachable, the whole aspect of the death of video game focused internet forums is probably what would have set off most people.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Sumez

[TDIRunner | 2,744]

8 hours ago, Sumez said:

I don't have any experience of that, but I guess that could be perceived as abrasive.

On the other hand, you can't really blame them, can you?

I've already said that I understand their frustration, but that doesn't justify most of their actions.  That site alone developed a negative stereotype for the entire TG16/PCE community that, for the most part, is still lasting today. 

That site had a lot of issues, and while it's a shame that all of that information is now gone, it's also not too surprising what eventually happened to it.  I watched everything unfold as that site burned to the ground.  Funny thing is that after it was over, I remember thinking to myself, "at least that could never happen to NA."  

[MagusSmurf | 577]

Gotta say, I'm not really seeing a distinction worth caring about between collecting games for money vs. collecting for that fuzzy consumerist feeling of holding actual hardware and software. I mean, I get the latter to some extent, I've purchased a good few games for no other particular reason, but the disdain for those who do the former by those who do the latter seems a little weird and rather petty.

Will agree on purchase/collection posts on reddit being annoying clutter, though.

Edited January 18, 2021 by MagusSmurf

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

7 hours ago, MagusSmurf said:

Gotta say, I'm not really seeing a distinction worth caring about between collecting games for money vs. collecting for that fuzzy consumerist feeling of holding actual hardware and software. I mean, I get the latter to some extent, I've purchased a good few games for no other particular reason, but the disdain for those who do the former by those who do the latter seems a little weird and rather petty.

Will agree on purchase/collection posts on reddit being annoying clutter, though.

I agree with you to an extent, but here's how speculation and a very large subsection of retro game collectors not being actual retro gamers nowadays has changed the hobby for me personally:

2003 conversation: "Hey, I'm on a bit of a platformer kick; anybody know any good NES platformers outside of the Mario/Mega Man/Konami schtick???"  "Yeah, try Little Samson, fun game with a bunch of different characters to play as.  It'll cost you about twenty bucks on eBay."

2021 conversation: "Hey, I'm on a bit of a platformer kick; anybody know any good NES platformers outside of the Mario/Mega Man/Konami schtick???"  "Yeah, try Little Samson, fun game with a bunch of different characters to play as.  It'll cost you FOUR FUCKING FIGURES JUST FOR THE CARTRIDGE on eBay."

If you can't understand why there would be resentment from long-time collectors, and have to resort to name calling ("weird and rather petty"), then I guess we're not really working at the same level...

[Tanooki | 4,940]

@TDIRunner@Sumez  My time off/on that site wasn't during that last year before it imploded, especially that last half year where nightwolf, nighthawke (that's something like the name right?) flipped his sh** completely and went insane.  I did play catch up.  I got back into the PCE I guess 3 years ago now, so the dating put me off the worst of it but I did read into it because I couldn't re-awaken my old account and saw people (like the VGS exodus) pointed towards the proboards and the pce bible board too.  I never did purchasing past or towards death of the site, it was then and still is about the games to me.  If I ever asked on a price it wasn't an issue, it just was about not getting taken for a ride by an import site in the day that maybe screwing around.

I really don't blame them for the abrasiveness, at least against people looking to score rares or trying to get values to try and turn stuff around for themselves or against someone else's lack of knowledge as it fed into the issue.  I can see why it would drive many off, but that kind of was the point, drive out hobby killers/damagers for those who still cared about the product, not the puffed up value vultures were driving and still do, more so now than ever as the JP stuff is terrible finally too now.  I could go on but that last sumez post nails my thoughts more or less.  Scum who come in just caring about the prestige, cash value, trade value, emtombing value, what they scored because of the value...they're cancer.  And like cancer, it's aggressive and rapidly spreads killing the good parts of anything it touches.

It kills forums, social media more now too.  I'm seeing more and more groups within stuff as less screwed with like Gameboy to the higher dollar SNK and NEC stuff updating their facebook rules to ban appraisals, ban sales, not allowing 'find, secret gem, etc' attention whoring videos, and the rest because it ruins discussion of what those people like.  Some have made sub-sites just for those who want to dabble in that to keep them from ruining the room.  I tend to join those groups because of that boot to the face type rule enforcement, read, follow, or get the f out.