Fighting Scalpers -- the thread

[Abelardo | 154]

One thing you can count on is that when supply doesn't meet the demand the market will adjust so both supply and demand reach an equilibrium, the same happens when demand doesn't meet the supply, prices get slashed until they reach the equilibrium point, this will happen naturally and basically any attempt to implement any sort of control like prohibiting reselling for example will result in the costs being translated elsewhere, it will mean buyers probably have to wait in line for hours to be able to purchase a "hot" item, then there would be people that would be willing to pay someone to wait in line for them because their time might be more valuable to them so everyone is in fact paying above retail value one way or another.

How to effectively avoid this situation? Producers should increase the supply, it's a delicate matter since they better be sure they're not overproducing, but they should ramp up the production if it's obvious there's enough demand to justify it.

[avatar! | 1,827]

9 hours ago, GPX said:

As a few have stated, scalpers exist due to there being a demand/market for scalpers to thrive in. If there is no demand, then the scalpers would quickly die out or likely revert to baseline prices or thereabouts.

So, I'm going to take an extreme case here which is clearly immoral and illegal - sex trafficking. Going by the logic of "they exist because there is a demand" might technically be true, but it doesn't make a scalper or in the other extreme a sex trafficker legit. Again, I know my example was an extreme case, but there will always be a demand for "things" and I think we need to absolutely find ways that circumvent scalpers - such as open preorders. 

As for limited edition games, I know in some sense they've been around for decades. But, they really have taken off as far as I can tell since LRG came on the market. Again, to an extent since they adopted a mostly open preorder period they've taken the pressure off buyers. However, I don't think doing away with limited editions is going to work, because in that case LRG and other such small publishers would cease to exist, and that would be horrible for collectors like us. So, I think limited editions are a necessity in a niche market, but that doesn't make scalping a necessity. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by avatar!

[avatar! | 1,827]

edit - double post - (ignore/delete)

Edited September 24, 2020 by avatar!

[drxandy | 3,236]

Ooof I'm bummed I didn't have a ghost of a chance to get the pins because I was too tied up in vacation but maybe just maybe there will be another run to smush the scalp.. fingers crossed with no hope in sight haha

[GPX | 1,373]

4 hours ago, avatar! said:

So, I'm going to take an extreme case here which is clearly immoral and illegal - sex trafficking. Going by the logic of "they exist because there is a demand" might technically be true, but it doesn't make a scalper or in the other extreme a sex trafficker legit. Again, I know my example was an extreme case, but there will always be a demand for "things" and I think we need to absolutely find ways that circumvent scalpers - such as open preorders. 

As for limited edition games, I know in some sense they've been around for decades. But, they really have taken off as far as I can tell since LRG came on the market. Again, to an extent since they adopted a mostly open preorder period they've taken the pressure off buyers. However, I don't think doing away with limited editions is going to work, because in that case LRG and other such small publishers would cease to exist, and that would be horrible for collectors like us. So, I think limited editions are a necessity in a niche market, but that doesn't make scalping a necessity. 

I don’t think it’s fruitful to compare scalping of video games to sex trafficking. You’re much less likely to suffer from deaths, depression, PTSD if you miss out on purchasing a game; so it’s kind of clear the weight of effect between the 2 scenario is too extreme. Furthermore, you might as well compare trafficking of sex/drugs to all the other markets that exist eg. Collector-reseller, Heritage Auctions, WATA/VGA. Should we abolish all these markets as well since we’re deeply concerned about the video games scalping market?

Regarding your last point:

”So, I think limited editions are a necessity in a niche market, but that doesn't make scalping a necessity.“

You are correct, scalping isn’t a necessity. We have the right to bypass the scalped item and use our money elsewhere. Or companies can make more of them to suit demand. There are ways to circumvent scalping. Don’t get me wrong, I dislike scalpers too in general, but I choose to accept it for what it is.

 

[avatar! | 1,827]

1 hour ago, GPX said:

I don’t think it’s fruitful to compare scalping of video games to sex trafficking. You’re much less likely to suffer from deaths, depression, PTSD if you miss out on purchasing a game; so it’s kind of clear the weight of effect between the 2 scenario is too extreme. Furthermore, you might as well compare trafficking of sex/drugs to all the other markets that exist eg. Collector-reseller, Heritage Auctions, WATA/VGA. Should we abolish all these markets as well since we’re deeply concerned about the video games scalping market?

Regarding your last point:

”So, I think limited editions are a necessity in a niche market, but that doesn't make scalping a necessity.“

You are correct, scalping isn’t a necessity. We have the right to bypass the scalped item and use our money elsewhere. Or companies can make more of them to suit demand. There are ways to circumvent scalping. Don’t get me wrong, I dislike scalpers too in general, but I choose to accept it for what it is.

 

I agree in general it's not fruitful to compare the two which certainly are very different things as I noted. However, I think my argument that simply saying "there's demand, therefore they (scalpers, etc) exist" is also not fruitful and that was the point I was trying to make. They don't have to exist, but there will always be "demand" for things such as video games. Do we really have to accept scalping? Maybe there should be more laws against it?  

[Abelardo | 154]

6 minutes ago, avatar! said:

I agree in general it's not fruitful to compare the two which certainly are very different things as I noted. However, I think my argument that simply saying "there's demand, therefore they (scalpers, etc) exist" is also not fruitful and that was the point I was trying to make. They don't have to exist, but there will always be "demand" for things such as video games. Do we really have to accept scalping? Maybe there should be more laws against it?  

You can hardly do anything about it, even if there are laws against it scarcity will mean people will still miss out unless they're willing to go to extraordinary lengths or otherwise get lucky, furthermore if somehow by law prices cannot be increased then there's less incentive to sell, there will be less sellers willing to sell at a low price compared to buyers willing to buy, it wouldn't take long for buyers and sellers to find ways to circumvent the restrictions, for example sellers could bundle the item with other crap they want to sell, or buyers could start bribing sellers effectively bringing the price up where it should be, there's just no effective way to control this besides increasing the supply.

[avatar! | 1,827]

1 hour ago, Abelardo said:

You can hardly do anything about it...there's just no effective way to control this besides increasing the supply.

Disagree. And in fact, there are people doing things about it. Granted, this article talks about ticket sales, but many of the same ideas apply to video games and other goods. The results are very promising. While video games are of course not tickets, there are similarities in how scalpers can be countered. 

https://www.cnet.com/news/how-the-ticketing-world-is-taking-on-scalpers-and-bots/

That said, in general I do agree that increasing supply is ideal.

[Abelardo | 154]

@avatar!yes there are efforts to distribute the products evenly, but if supply isn't enough some people will miss out and some people who bought the product will rather take the extra money offered by those who missed out and are willing to pay more, scalping will still occur but there will be a larger amount of sellers with little product each instead of just a few sellers who somehow hoarded up a good chunk of the production.

Seems that what bothers most is when a few resellers show up with a lot of product, I think in general most companies will try to avoid that situation and offer some sort of system to allow you to preorder anything you want, or at least do their best to keep them available in the store shelves.

[fcgamer | 4,753]

Scalpers suck a big one, but there's not much that can be done about it. Therefore I just try not to even waste my time or efforts thinking about it anymore.

[a_profile_name | 230]

Some years ago I used to work as a developer for scalper company selling football (i.e. soccer for most of you) tickets.

As part of the job I've built some bots that bought tickets from the official websites of some clubs, so they can then resell them. When I was interviewed I didn't understand it is scalping. And then I kept working cause I needed a job. The only positive part is that I had to quit after 4 months so they were then stuck with only one developer. I later donated a modest amount to a supporter organization of some local club of mine in an attempt to repent my sins.

The funny thing is the guys running the company actually thought they are providing a service. In some sense they were because tickets were sold mainly to Americans who probably don't know how the European sporting event secondary market works (namely, that you can buy tickets outside the stadium for a premium of 30%-40% instead of the 200% they were taking). But still, the markups and the abuse of people's ignorance is disgusting. My point is that its not a crime to be ignorant on a subject, and if someone wants to casually buy tickets (or video games for that matter) and doesn't know how to navigate that specific market, people are still assholes for taking advantage of it.

[avatar! | 1,827]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-retail-ecommerce-scalper-bots-insight/good-luck-finding-a-playstation-5-walmart-and-other-retailers-battle-bots-snatching-up-hot-products-idUSKBN28I0VL

“These are businesses... people pay their mortgages doing this,” said Imperva’s Roberts. “They have a goal and it’s financially motivated, so they’re not going to go away.”

Immoral and unethical businesses, but yes, as long as people continue to pay scalper prices there will be scalpers.

Stop the spread of scalpers - wait until the PS5 etc is back in stock!

[Tanooki | 4,950]

Interesting read.  I forgot about the BOTS act of 2016 for ticketing.  Shame congress doesn't expand the BOTS act to cover all BOTS.  Making those pieces of human garbage have to buy on an even playing field with everyone else would be fantastic.  Sure it won't stop them, but it would deter a lot of it since they can't just setup some dumb script to pick off a few or dozens+ units to remove from the fair market.

[RH | 4,965]

2 hours ago, avatar! said:

Immoral and unethical businesses, but yes, as long as people continue to pay scalper prices there will be scalpers.

Stop the spread of scalpers - wait until the PS5 etc is back in stock!

I don't find scalping to be immoral or unethical, but I do agree 100% with that last statement.  IMHO, within free markets and capitalism, there behaviors that are "acceptable" but I can personally choose to not be able to agree with or appreciate.  I don't see scalping as unethical, but I don't like it at all and I also find it an extremely annoying practice.

Your last line is our defense.  People need to simply tell them to shove off.  Scalpers can grab up 100% of the inventory but if nobody wants to pay a 50-300% mark up, they're not going to get profit margins they hope for.  Scalpers provide a service that benefits the impatient, or FOMO-driven consumer.  My agitation is more with the high number of people who simply can't wait 3-6 months for inventory to meet demand, but that too is there choice.

But, as a "capitalist" I will also throw out another dynamic I don't like, which is largely publicly held companies.  When shareholders enter the scene, far to many companies migrate to becoming 100% profit and stock-value driven.  This almost always sacrifices long term quality of service for the consumer, because short term profits are what are desired, over long term value-driven practices that focus on the customers needs, rather than the stock holders.

But, even though I don't really care for the publicly traded model of business I see nothing legally, morally or ethically wrong with it.  I just don't care for the end result.  So what's the alternative?  Much as is the case with scalpers, go to alternative companies that offer a more customer-focused business model.  Alas, much like the impatient consumer that is willing to pay scalpers, most (American) consumers want cookie-cutter, quick, homogenized experiences and corporations are good at giving that.

As a society, we want quick results and we will sacrifice both quality and cost to get it.  That's why we have this problem.  Consumers need to change their habits.  Both of these dynamics, however, are meeting the desires of the consumer, whether we like it in practice or not.

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

Personally, I don’t see how scalping is any different than trading in any type of investment security. It’s about supply and demand. I do take issue with the bots though. If you can find a way to buy something as a human and the monetary value in the market exceeds the retail price, then I see no issue selling it for a profit. It’s really more of a supply issue and the idiots buying from scalpers.

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,017]

7 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Making those pieces of human garbage have to buy on an even playing field with everyone else would be fantastic. 

Tell us how you really feel

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

I was on walmart.com to buy a PS5 because they were doing a restock at 12:30. I was there right then, and they were out of stock by 12:30 and 15 seconds . Literally 15 seconds. 

[a3quit4s | 4,124]

I’ve missed every direct by minutes, Best Buy I had it in the cart and got a sold out message trying to get to checkout, missed Walmart today while the add to cart button was active

I might just give up till 2021

[Mega Tank | 974]

3 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

I was on walmart.com to buy a PS5 because they were doing a restock at 12:30. I was there right then, and they were out of stock by 12:30 and 15 seconds . Literally 15 seconds. 

Stock was gone faster than that man. Refreshed at 12:30 sharp, out of stock.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

55 minutes ago, Mega Tank said:

Stock was gone faster than that man. Refreshed at 12:30 sharp, out of stock.

I didnt get the option to add to cart until 5 sec or so, by then they were all gone. 

[avatar! | 1,827]

2 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

I didnt get the option to add to cart until 5 sec or so, by then they were all gone. 

Freakin' scalpers and scalper bots

[O.G. CIB | 415]

15 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

I was on walmart.com to buy a PS5 because they were doing a restock at 12:30. I was there right then, and they were out of stock by 12:30 and 15 seconds . Literally 15 seconds. 

Walmart released in roughly 10 min increments starting at 3pm eastern with last batch at 3:30pm. I got lucky at the 3:20pm with them. The app works better with Walmart because you can continually hit the Add Cart button until you get in. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Mr. CIB

[Tanooki | 4,950]

Hopefully these businesses can start registering bot IP addresses and activities and just start banning them wholesale.  It won't stop the problem, but it'll make it far harder for them to attempt it, especially beyond the first try.  Couple that with checking how the checkout process is handled, and if it appears scripted to outright cancel, refund, and ban the user account would be fantastic.  It won't hurt their business in the least bit, even if a few get caught in the crossfire someone else will replace them as a customer if they take it personally.

[avatar! | 1,827]

Amazon has been supporting scalpers for a good many years now... seriously, why do they suck so much??

Edited November 12, 2021 by avatar!

[Tanooki | 4,950]

I've passively been looking when I go to any store that would have one to see if they do, and obviously, reasons like that, is why there are none.  You can get any other model that isn't some special edition thing too, they're not scarce, just easier to screw people going after the newest hype wagon despite the switch sales not tapering off.