General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Strange | 1,706]

Weird posting issue, sorry. Post is below.

Edited June 9, 2020 by The Strangest

[Reed Rothchild | 9,641]

Gotta agree.  The answer to almost everything is never the extreme option.  Getting rid of the police?  That doesn't even make sense.

I say that as someone who once completed testing to be a cop, whose dad was a cop, whose friend is a detective, who was also once the victim of violent crime, to be fair.  Change is needed, all over the sociological map.  But nuclear options are never the answer.

[Strange | 1,706]

48 minutes ago, Magus said:

@The Strangest Yup i seen this, like......how is this something that people think is okay to say as president? No proof at all, just a baseless accusation. It's straight up propaganda using a buzzword like Antifa to get his side riled up. And if it is a set up, the blood pooling out of the poor guys ear was a great way to sell it.

I’ve seen some apologists/conspiracy theorists suggest that the man had a tube attached to him to release the blood after he fell. Some people are simply detached from reality.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

6 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Gotta agree.  The answer to almost everything is never the extreme option.  Getting rid of the police?  That doesn't even make sense.

I say that as someone who once completed testing to be a cop, whose dad was a cop, whose friend is a detective, who was also once the victim of violent crime, to be fair.  Change is needed, all over the sociological map.  But nuclear options are never the answer.

I try to stay out of these threads and stick to games, but this is the best comment I've seen so far.

[Estil | 1,267]

2 hours ago, NESfiend said:

This thread has become too much to keep up with, but I did want to address this because I'm not sure if you are kidding. Calling you out by name was just an acknowledgement you have been ganged up on in the thread. Its also an acknowledgment you have a little better sense of humor than most and can take a joke. Everyone is for transparency with body cams and dash cams. And that begs the question why so many departments still don't use them when cost is minimal. 

As for putting words in your mouth about you hoping biden and left would embrace "defund police" movement, that was an acknowledgement of your intelligence. People in general are finally recognizing problems regarding race. In wake of that victory, immediately the left pushes an idea that would turn off the middle of the road voters. Its one step forward, two steps back if that were to really catch on. Trump took the right to crazy extremes. Why the left sees it as an opportunity to do the same with our party is beyond me (i.e. dem debates were hard to watch). Luckily, biden is a moderate, something both sides badly need a lot more of. 

I do in fact hope cooler heads prevail in Minneapolis and that they as well as Biden and what not are not THAT crazy as far as this defunding police idea goes.  And I always prefer and appreciate a good fair fight, both here and in the Presidential election.  No really, if several of the guys here are so certain that Trump is a rotten good for nothing loud mouth racist blowhard then the D's should have no trouble finding a well qualified challenger to beat him.  Conversely, if the Trump supporters think despite his, eh, less than ideal personality he's right where it counts on the issues and policy and whatnot, then Trump should have no trouble winning re-election against a good qualified challenger in a true fair fight.  And like it or not anti-Trumpers (forgive me if I'd already said this way too many times) you WILL need to persuade and win back some of the 2016 Trump voters especially in the major swing states...and as NESfiend correctly pointed out, attacking the voters will only ensure they will be pushed further and further away.

[Estil | 1,267]

37 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Gotta agree.  The answer to almost everything is never the extreme option.  Getting rid of the police?  That doesn't even make sense.

I say that as someone who once completed testing to be a cop, whose dad was a cop, whose friend is a detective, who was also once the victim of violent crime, to be fair.  Change is needed, all over the sociological map.  But nuclear options are never the answer.

And let me add to that no problem as ever been solved by going to the opposite extreme either.  No really, tell me some situations where going to either extreme on anything worked out well.

[Tulpa | 3,569]

1 minute ago, Estil said:

I do in fact hope cooler heads prevail in Minneapolis and that they as well as Biden and what not are not THAT crazy as far as this defunding police idea goes.

Biden and the Democratic leadership have already said they're not in favor of abolishing police departments.

[Link | 2,768]

3 minutes ago, Estil said:

if several of the guys here are so certain that Trump is a rotten good for nothing loud mouth racist blowhard then the D's should have no trouble finding a well qualified challenger to beat him.

and yet Biden is the guy

[Estil | 1,267]

1 minute ago, Tulpa said:

Biden and the Democratic leadership have already said they're not in favor of abolishing police departments.

Good.  Smart move. It's bad enough the Minneapolis leaders are actually entertaining the idea.

[Tulpa | 3,569]

2 minutes ago, Estil said:

Good.  Smart move. It's bad enough the Minneapolis leaders are actually entertaining the idea.

They're not talking about completely removing any and all police enforcement. Likely it'll be similar to what Camden, New Jersey did.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

With startling results.

"Violent crimes have dropped 42% in seven years, according to city crime data provided by the department. The crime rate has dropped from 79 per 1,000 to 44 per 1,000, the data shows."

[Kguillemette | 1,561]

1 hour ago, Link said:

Ok. You guys tell me why someone would call the police on a homeless camp in a viaduct. You think they want the police to go and help the people? Lol. They drive past all the time, if they were going to help they wouldn’t need a call. They would do something proactively. More often they coordinate a date to tear down the camp and throw all the peoples belongings in a dumpster.

How many of said homeless want help and how many are content with panhandling? It's a complicated issue with lots of nuances, for sure. I want what's best for everyone. But it's not acceptable to be afraid while stuck in morning traffic. 

Dealing with homeless drug addicts time and again gets old. For those familiar with Manchester, nh, you can't even grab takeout from the red arrow on Lowell st without being harassed or followed. When I worked in the kwik stop, it got old when homeless would destroy the bathrooms by taking baths in the hand sink and leave their mess behind for others to clean up while clogging up the toilets with paper towels. And others who arrive just completely belligerent and start stealing things in an attempt to get arrested. (Typically they would be released on PR in a matter of hours, but that's a whole other issue.)

 

Yes, many have mental health issues. Many are simply desperate addicts. Some are indeed down on their luck individuals who need a little help, and there are lots of resources for them to get the help they need in Manchester. (Families in Transition, New Horizons, etc)

It's the ones who don't want help that tend to be unpredictable and I feel I need to be cautious of. Plus, ever watch a man beg for change for a bus fare and immediately turn around and buy a tall boy of natty ice instead? I have. 

[Link | 2,768]

If it needs to be clarified, I am not calling for police as a concept to be eliminated. I do think it has proven inappropriate to have them in grammar schools, and some departments have a LOT of work to do when it comes to dealing with people who have mental health issues — physically overpowering someone who is having a crisis tends to make it so much worse. 

There is some progress on that in some places. I took the five day intervention training. It was good, although I think it could be more extensive.

[Strange | 1,706]

I always interpreted this talking point as a reform to how our police system is structured here in the US, but the people proposing this idea have done a terrible job explaining that, as evidenced by the response to such a call.

Here in Nashville, they are simply asking our city to take a second look at how much money is funneled into our police force vs. the rest of the budget. To some this can be boiled down to “Why do our teachers have to pay out of pocket to do their job but our small town police forces are outfitted with military grade vehicles?”

Others have mentioned the need for a higher bar of entry to becoming a police officer. Some of the angriest, most underperforming, most misbehaved kids I knew in high school turned out to be cops and in absolutely no time at all. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest we may need to re-evaluate the system.

[Estil | 1,267]

30 minutes ago, Link said:

If it needs to be clarified, I am not calling for police as a concept to be eliminated. I do think it has proven inappropriate to have them in grammar schools

You mean no more (as we had back in my day) Officer Friendly, no DARE officer, no McGruff??  Dude, weak.    

Now as far the whole metal detectors and officers patrolling the school hallways OTOH, yeah I'd rather we not treat our schools/students like prisoners thank you.  And we most definitely don't need to half ruin students' lives by throwing them in juvie over things that traditionally detention or demerits or writing "I will not do so and so a bunch of times" or in-house suspension would've handled just fine.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Estil

[Silent Hill | 276]

18 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

They're not talking about completely removing any and all police enforcement. Likely it'll be similar to what Camden, New Jersey did.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

With startling results.

"Violent crimes have dropped 42% in seven years, according to city crime data provided by the department. The crime rate has dropped from 79 per 1,000 to 44 per 1,000, the data shows."

Hopefully something like that scales well and it sounds like Camden had a fairly unique situation of a corrupt police department perpetuating the crime rate, especially since it seems they only hired ~25% of the force back into the reformed department. 

It could highlight the disparities between corruption of police across cities if implemented. 

Maybe they'll be able to remove themselves from the top murder cities in the US over the next few years. 

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but was the addition of police in grammar schools in response to school shootings in the 90s? I remember in 3rd grade, 1992-1993 school year, there was a hostage situation in a grade school that happened. My class was in a mobile home in the school parking lot. We used to be able to go into the school to go to the bathroom. After the incident, the school doors were locked and we needed a key.

I think that the accessibility of guns is a problem in this country and I think that there needs to be a higher standard to own a gun and regular psychological exams and criminal background checks on gun owners. Some might argue that you’re singling out a population. Yes, I am singling out a population that owns a lethal weapon. I don’t own a gun or intend to, but I can respect that some choose to. I also think that the responsibility of owning one is so great that owners should face rigorous testing to own and continue to own them. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by ICrappedMyPants

[Estil | 1,267]

18 minutes ago, The Strangest said:

Here in Nashville, they are simply asking our city to take a second look at how much money is funneled into our police force vs. the rest of the budget. To some this can be boiled down to “Why do our teachers have to pay out of pocket to do their job but our small town police forces are outfitted with military grade vehicles?”

Others have mentioned the need for a higher bar of entry to becoming a police officer. Some of the angriest, most underperforming, most misbehaved kids I knew in high school turned out to be cops and in absolutely no time at all. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest we may need to re-evaluate the system.

While I do think having police using hand-me-down military stuff is beyond scary, is there anything else we can do with decommissioned military stuff that doesn't involved letting it go to waste?

And yes being an officer, just like joining the military should be something one does as a special calling and out of a sense of duty.  Yes this is a very ideal make-believe example but why can't real life officers be this honest?  As for what Andy says at the very end, there were waaaaay too many of the BLM types who didn't get that memo regarding the Duke lacrosse and Michael Brown/Darren Wilson situations.

You know Trump is famous (or infamous depending on your POV) for MAGA?  Why not have a Make Police the Good Guys Again?  Not so sure though if MPGGA rolls off the tounge very good though...

Edited June 9, 2020 by Estil

[B.A. | 1,139]

27 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

They're not talking about completely removing any and all police enforcement. Likely it'll be similar to what Camden, New Jersey did.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

With startling results.

"Violent crimes have dropped 42% in seven years, according to city crime data provided by the department. The crime rate has dropped from 79 per 1,000 to 44 per 1,000, the data shows."

Yes, in fact they are talking about removing any and all police enforcement.  The mayor when confronted by protesters said he was not in favor of completely abolishing the MPD, he stated they needed serious reform.  He was then booed off the stage and told to go home.  In response 9 of the 12 Minneapolis city council members (the ones who control the budget) appeared at a rally the next day stating they do intend to completely defund the police department.  The idea being that reform hasn't worked for decades, so it's time to try something else. 

They are woefully short on details as to how they plan to address real crimes, the timeframe or anything really. They have indeed publicly pledged a police free community.    

[Silent Hill | 276]

2 minutes ago, B.A. said:

Yes, in fact they are talking about removing any and all police enforcement.  The mayor when confronted by protesters said he was not in favor of completely abolishing the MPD, he stated they needed serious reform.  He was then booed off the stage and told to go home.  In response 9 of the 12 Minneapolis city council members (the ones who control the budget) appeared at a rally the next day stating they do intend to completely defund the police department.  The idea being that reform hasn't worked for decades, so it's time to try something else. 

They are woefully short on details as to how they plan to address real crimes, the timeframe or anything really. They have indeed publicly pledged a police free community.    

I'd hate to see how many people flee the city if that's put into effect. I'd actually be packing my stuff now if I lived there. 

[Estil | 1,267]

1 minute ago, Silent Hill said:

I'd hate to see how many people flee the city if that's put into effect. I'd actually be packing my stuff now if I lived there. 

I never thought I'd live to see the day where we might have BOTH "red flight" (R's leaving) and "blue flight" (officers or pro-police types leaving) at the same time!!!

[NESfiend | 1,520]

14 minutes ago, B.A. said:

Yes, in fact they are talking about removing any and all police enforcement.  The mayor when confronted by protesters said he was not in favor of completely abolishing the MPD, he stated they needed serious reform.  He was then booed off the stage and told to go home.  In response 9 of the 12 Minneapolis city council members (the ones who control the budget) appeared at a rally the next day stating they do intend to completely defund the police department.  The idea being that reform hasn't worked for decades, so it's time to try something else. 

They are woefully short on details as to how they plan to address real crimes, the timeframe or anything really. They have indeed publicly pledged a police free community.    

Another example of why policing is too big of an issue to be completely managed, funded, and regulated at the local level. These matters should not be in the hands of a city council members. 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

18 minutes ago, B.A. said:

Yes, in fact they are talking about removing any and all police enforcement.  The mayor when confronted by protesters said he was not in favor of completely abolishing the MPD, he stated they needed serious reform.  He was then booed off the stage and told to go home.  In response 9 of the 12 Minneapolis city council members (the ones who control the budget) appeared at a rally the next day stating they do intend to completely defund the police department.  The idea being that reform hasn't worked for decades, so it's time to try something else. 

They are woefully short on details as to how they plan to address real crimes, the timeframe or anything really. They have indeed publicly pledged a police free community.    

[Kguillemette | 1,561]

13 minutes ago, B.A. said:

Yes, in fact they are talking about removing any and all police enforcement.  The mayor when confronted by protesters said he was not in favor of completely abolishing the MPD, he stated they needed serious reform.  He was then booed off the stage and told to go home.  In response 9 of the 12 Minneapolis city council members (the ones who control the budget) appeared at a rally the next day stating they do intend to completely defund the police department.  The idea being that reform hasn't worked for decades, so it's time to try something else. 

They are woefully short on details as to how they plan to address real crimes, the timeframe or anything really. They have indeed publicly pledged a police free community.    

Wow. Just wow.

So what happens? Do the state police absorb that jurisdiction? That's a huge chunk of population. This isn't like disbanding the local PD of a rural town of 3000 people. The recent riots show what that population is capable of. It's unfathomable to disband the police dept of a major metro like that. I can't foresee any commercial investment like stores/office space without reliable security that a police force would bring

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

3 minutes ago, Kguillemette said:

Wow. Just wow.

So what happens? Do the state police absorb that jurisdiction? That's a huge chunk of population. This isn't like disbanding the local PD of a rural town of 3000 people. The recent riots show what that population is capable of. It's unfathomable to disband the police dept of a major metro like that. I can't foresee any commercial investment like stores/office space without reliable security that a police force would bring

This is going to turn into a real life version of The Purge.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

29 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

Pretty sure the NRA advertisement was always to the effect of "when you have seconds to act, the police are minutes away"...