Game Debate #158: Metroid II

[Reed Rothchild | 9,563]

[Gloves | 11,812]

The only Metroid game I ever enjoyed, though I couldn't tell you why. I was a kid and enjoyed the exploration despite that I'm sure I never got particularly far and if I recall the environments are pretty samey. 

[Tanooki | 4,943]

Original: 7
Remake: 4

The old game was more or less ok, but it never was great.  It got to where with the lack of color and big bump in visual quality where it was a confusing chore to try and navigate more often than not, even over the original.  It was a nice idea, the oddball metroids were good too, and it laid the groundwork for later stuff.  It just felt a bit confusing, constrained, and lacking, which perhaps a built in map would have helped.  But in the end the bones of it, the game play mechanics, use of the controls, visual detail, and audio quality were really really good.

The (de)remake I gave a generous 4, preface it by saying it's more or less on the point that matters most, the controls/mechanics SHITE!  What the hell were they thinking at Nintendo alllowing mercury steam to setup the most fucked up wonky ass control scheme on all the buttons and so on of the 3DS.  It's a disaster, and then they made these canned required more or less dodge/evade combo moves for so many situations.  It's a control clusterfuck of commands, 3DS's control equal of TLDR.  It's cramped, weird combos needed to go from gear piece this to weapon that to trigger this along with combos for evasion and whatever and it blows.  The visuals, audio, "story" the other non-gameplay, non-play control mechanics are great, and that's why I gave it the 4.

The demake I can not and will not ever recommend to anyone, and I can see more why they shut down AM2R for *THIS* reason if not more for this reason than the fact it was just aping Nintendo IP they have to defend.  AM2R is how the 3DS game should have been done when it comes down to gameplay and control mechanics, visuals...that can debate around who loves 3D(2.5D) and its flourishes vs keeping it more like the SNES (SM3) and GBA (SM4 and Zero) style.  There's a good argument for either.  Nintendo screwed that one up, could have had a solid gem on their hands and blew it.

[RH | 4,936]

The original was about as perfect of a GB game as could be made on one, and it amazes me that it was an early title.  I've gushed about this game before.  It fixed many of the issues with the first game, especially with the way that every area was blocked until you mostly cleared the last.  This game uses very little text but it tells a clear story.  For a such a poor, green screen the game play could still, really suck you into the world.

I've played this game through many times, and it's my second favorite GB title.  I've considered this one a 10 for ages, so it's a no brainer to me.

[koifish | 557]

Interesting poll since you get to talk about two very different versions of the same thing. Part of why I argue that no remake ever truly 'replaces' an original, it's like saying you should only listen to one recording or arrangement or mix of a favorite song.

Anyway, Metroid 2 really expands Samus's movement and the exploration is at least as good/mazelike as the first game. The maps are smaller and a bit more linear as you draw them out, but they feel large, which is a win for the GB. My only complaint is that Metroid 2 gameplay isn't much. Granted Metroid has never really had good combat, but Metroid 2 really feels anemic in that regard to me.

Now on that aspect, I really LOVED samus returns. It wasn't much of an exploration game, but it was amazing for the shooting action. I loved the free aim feature and the aggressive nature of the enemies. I should clarify, though, that I didn't like the melee attack thing. It was jammed in everywhere, but fortunately you could just ignore it, and I found it a much better game for it. The aggressive enemies constantly charging you and taking big chunks of health gave some actual stakes to the game while you slowly became powerful enough to ignore them. The aiming and the movement of samus made for a really fun time.  I'll maintain that it wasn't much for exploration, but it was fun for shooting, and I am okay with having two different flavors of the same game. I'll give both 8/10.

Oh, and the 3D in Samus Returns was awesome. 2D game but the backgrounds were beautiful. Reminded me of how disappointed I was in teams that gave up on making 3D games once the New 2DS XL came out.

[Webhead123 | 687]

Considering the limitations of the Game Boy, I found Metroid II to be a really solid experience and worthy follow-up to the NES original. There were only a few parts where navigation was an issue but otherwise I found it tightly-paced and fun to explore. It actually surprised me how much I enjoyed it, as I was expecting a quaint, little romp with a fair share of frustrations but ended up playing a solid, portable adventure.

I've only just scratched the surface of Samus Returns and I'm torn on it. I like most of what they've done so far but there are some minor details that kinda bug me, like the parry system and some slightly fussy controls. But I suspect, once I just tell myself to get over it, I'll appreciate the remake overall.

[koifish | 557]

56 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Original: 7
Remake: 4

The old game was more or less ok, but it never was great.  It got to where with the lack of color and big bump in visual quality where it was a confusing chore to try and navigate more often than not, even over the original.  It was a nice idea, the oddball metroids were good too, and it laid the groundwork for later stuff.  It just felt a bit confusing, constrained, and lacking, which perhaps a built in map would have helped.  But in the end the bones of it, the game play mechanics, use of the controls, visual detail, and audio quality were really really good.

The (de)remake I gave a generous 4, preface it by saying it's more or less on the point that matters most, the controls/mechanics SHITE!  What the hell were they thinking at Nintendo alllowing mercury steam to setup the most fucked up wonky ass control scheme on all the buttons and so on of the 3DS.  It's a disaster, and then they made these canned required more or less dodge/evade combo moves for so many situations.  It's a control clusterfuck of commands, 3DS's control equal of TLDR.  It's cramped, weird combos needed to go from gear piece this to weapon that to trigger this along with combos for evasion and whatever and it blows.  The visuals, audio, "story" the other non-gameplay, non-play control mechanics are great, and that's why I gave it the 4.

The demake I can not and will not ever recommend to anyone, and I can see more why they shut down AM2R for *THIS* reason if not more for this reason than the fact it was just aping Nintendo IP they have to defend.  AM2R is how the 3DS game should have been done when it comes down to gameplay and control mechanics, visuals...that can debate around who loves 3D(2.5D) and its flourishes vs keeping it more like the SNES (SM3) and GBA (SM4 and Zero) style.  There's a good argument for either.  Nintendo screwed that one up, could have had a solid gem on their hands and blew it.

You reminded me that I totally forgot about the aether powers too. I don't recall if I used those outside of critical moments. I don't remember having control issues though, was it something with using all the powers? I pretty much just moved, jumped, aimed, and shot, so I think that was joystick, L, B, and Y? Don't remember all the buttons now, but it seemed easy enough.

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

5/10. I've had the original since I was a kid, but never found it particularly enjoyable. The lack of color and absence of a map really makes navigation difficult. Gameplay itself is just okay.

Never played remake.

[Tanooki | 4,943]

3 hours ago, koifish said:

You reminded me that I totally forgot about the aether powers too. I don't recall if I used those outside of critical moments. I don't remember having control issues though, was it something with using all the powers? I pretty much just moved, jumped, aimed, and shot, so I think that was joystick, L, B, and Y? Don't remember all the buttons now, but it seemed easy enough.

It's juggling them along with how each thing needed a button or button+stick combo and done as is or in rapid succession with the next.  I haven't touched that one in some years, but Dread suffered from it too, a bit less nasty since it had 2 more buttons and it was less demanding on using dodges and stuff.

But a good example would be that bio-flower water area boss in Dread.  You had a combination of using the grapple, a weapon, then a missile all in a rapid motion of movements in a small window of time.  So it was like, hit this stick this way with this top button and face button, then hit another button and select this and shoot, then another button to select over to missile and do that.  It was like having to ASL on your damned 3DS just to kill shit in that game and it put me off it a mix of remembering it all, triggering it all, and cramping up having to cradle the damn system too.

The Switch sequel wasn't much better, I couldn't even kill that water plant boss, I had to use one of those system break moves to go around the area by cracking a hole in a wall I shouldn't be able to do and teleport/creep through it or I'd have stopped the game early on and left it.  It did become an ultimate fail the last chozo bitchboss before the final in the game, never could finish it, put the game down watched the ending on youtube.

[koifish | 557]

6 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

It's juggling them along with how each thing needed a button or button+stick combo and done as is or in rapid succession with the next.  I haven't touched that one in some years, but Dread suffered from it too, a bit less nasty since it had 2 more buttons and it was less demanding on using dodges and stuff.

But a good example would be that bio-flower water area boss in Dread.  You had a combination of using the grapple, a weapon, then a missile all in a rapid motion of movements in a small window of time.  So it was like, hit this stick this way with this top button and face button, then hit another button and select this and shoot, then another button to select over to missile and do that.  It was like having to ASL on your damned 3DS just to kill shit in that game and it put me off it a mix of remembering it all, triggering it all, and cramping up having to cradle the damn system too.

The Switch sequel wasn't much better, I couldn't even kill that water plant boss, I had to use one of those system break moves to go around the area by cracking a hole in a wall I shouldn't be able to do and teleport/creep through it or I'd have stopped the game early on and left it.  It did become an ultimate fail the last chozo bitchboss before the final in the game, never could finish it, put the game down watched the ending on youtube.

I don't have any idea of what you're talking about, maybe because I haven't played dread yet. Could you post a video or other reference to the part of Returns that you were frustrated with?

[Tanooki | 4,943]

1 minute ago, koifish said:

I don't have any idea of what you're talking about, maybe because I haven't played dread yet. Could you post a video or other reference to the part of Returns that you were frustrated with?

I would if I could sorry, I haven't touched it since the weeks of its arrival on the market.  Even then I'm not sure a video would really show because people just capture the action, not the button juggling needed to do those actions in order.

[SailingWiimote | 16]

I played through the series for the first time in my 20s, and Metroid II is my favourite one, with the original being the second favourite. I thought the series was less interesting when the map came around, and the games were generally easier from Super Metroid onward.

Never cared to play the remake, and never will. I know just from my experience with Nintendo remakes that I'd hate everything they changed.

[wongojack | 220]

MII 7

Remake - never played (but interested)

 

I played MII years and years after the original.  It is Metroid on the Gameboy for better or worse.  the lack of color does hurt and I felt more of a need for a map with the handheld edition. Still, it is a great addition to the Gameboy library, and we'd all be worse off if it didn't exist at all.

[Sumez | 2,983]

GB original: Great game using clever design to overcome the GB's limitations, and retains the Metroid atmosphere 7/10

3DS remake: Surprisingly competent, but loses atmosphere and exploration, and the enemy design drags it down from potentially being really good. Not as awful as Dread. 6/10

 

Very recent detailed accounts:

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Sumez

[Sumez | 2,983]

20 hours ago, koifish said:

I don't remember having control issues though, was it something with using all the powers? I pretty much just moved, jumped, aimed, and shot, so I think that was joystick, L, B, and Y? Don't remember all the buttons now, but it seemed easy enough.

Yeah, for all the issues SR and Dread do have, I wouldn't say controls are it. Like you, I don't really remember the control layout at all, but they are probably the best controlling of any Metroid games. Not that it's a high standard, but I do actually think there's something to be lauded for designing smooth controls based around exploration and traversal rather than an action/combat focus.
...of course regarding combat, the parry strike is just absurdly detrimental for both games, and I've never met anyone who disagrees. It's absurd they kept it for Dread.

[RH | 4,936]

The parry in Dread is what made me give it up.  I don't know what it is but parrying, in general, never ever gels with me.  I think it's part of what I could never find a stride in Punch-Out!  I know it's a bit different, but it's the same thing.

I even got to the first combat shrine in TotK last night and I couldn't parry to save my life.  I kept trying millisecond-differences on my parry timing and it never failed, I either parried to early, or it wouldn't parry because I waited to late.  I know it's getting off on a tangent, but seriously, did anyone else struggle with that?  I didn't have time to build improper muscle memory, but it's like you had to parry really, really early but you only had about 3 frames to do it!  It was the first time I truly got frustrated at the game.

[TDIRunner | 2,756]

1 hour ago, RH said:

The parry in Dread is what made me give it up.  I don't know what it is but parrying, in general, never ever gels with me.  I think it's part of what I could never find a stride in Punch-Out!  I know it's a bit different, but it's the same thing.

I even got to the first combat shrine in TotK last night and I couldn't parry to save my life.  I kept trying millisecond-differences on my parry timing and it never failed, I either parried to early, or it wouldn't parry because I waited to late.  I know it's getting off on a tangent, but seriously, did anyone else struggle with that?  I didn't have time to build improper muscle memory, but it's like you had to parry really, really early but you only had about 3 frames to do it!  It was the first time I truly got frustrated at the game.

I haven't used it much in TOTK, but it seems to use the same timing of BOTW.  In BOTW I was pretty bad at the parry mechanic at first, but eventually I played it enough to get the timing right where I was able to kill any Guardian just by sending their laser beams back into them.  I don't know if you ever played Master Mode in BOTW, but the Guardian laser timing changes on random occasions which is part of the extra difficult built into the game.  

[RH | 4,936]

Just now, TDIRunner said:

I haven't used it much in TOTK, but it seems to use the same timing of BOTW.  In BOTW I was pretty bad at the parry mechanic at first, but eventually I played it enough to get the timing right where I was able to kill any Guardian just by sending their laser beams back into them.  I don't know if you ever played Master Mode in BOTW, but the Guardian laser timing changes on random occasions which is part of the extra difficult built into the game.  

I didn't finish the BOTW.  I did put in 60 hours, got about 3/4th through it and called it a day.  I'm assuming the same will happen with TotK.  I'll still enjoy it because though getting story resolution is nice, with a game this big it doesn't even feel like a secondary need, but something much lower.  Still, since I finished the shrine where parrying was a requirement, I have a feeling I'll likely not parry again, which I'm sure is what happened to me in BOTW too, or if I did use it, it was spare and only when necessary.

 

[TDIRunner | 2,756]

This will be similar to rating the original Metroid for me.  I grew up with Super Metroid and because of that, I could never get into either of the original two games.  They are missing too much of what makes Super Metroid great.  I can acknowledge that both are great games, but they are missing too many features for me to enjoy them properly.  Nintendo took two really good games and improved on them to make what I consider to be as close to a perfect game as I have ever seen.  If I was rating on historical significance, it would be higher, but based on my enjoyment, I can't give it a very high rating.  

I've never played the 3DS remake.  Maybe someday, but it's not high on my priority list.  

[koifish | 557]

6 hours ago, Sumez said:

Yeah, for all the issues SR and Dread do have, I wouldn't say controls are it. Like you, I don't really remember the control layout at all, but they are probably the best controlling of any Metroid games. Not that it's a high standard, but I do actually think there's something to be lauded for designing smooth controls based around exploration and traversal rather than an action/combat focus.
...of course regarding combat, the parry strike is just absurdly detrimental for both games, and I've never met anyone who disagrees. It's absurd they kept it for Dread.

They probably kept it because not enough people told them it was lame. I don't mind though; You didn't need to use it at all in Returns, and for me it added challenge, since the enemies were way more aggressive to make you use it. So when you stop using it, the game gets more intense and more fun. It's kind of like Ace Combat 3D; It had that auto-win button thing where you just instantly get behind an enemy plane without doing anything (the much-hated autowin button from Assault Horizon), but you could just not use it, and then it was just a normal AC game. In this case, I think it works for Returns, because the game is still balanced pretty fairly for people to not use it and still win without much hardship. It also makes your movement and aiming skills that much more important, as you have to do some quick dodging to take out enemies. Also, if its a bother that the enemies are a bit tanky to make up for the parry damage, then just use missiles! The game throws them at you like candy, and unlike every other metroid game that throws missiles at you like candy, they're actually useful and not just 'save these to spam in ridley's face' like every other stupid metroid where the missiles are practically worthless extras due to the beam power. In this game, the beam eventually hits murderblaster status by the end of the game, but up until then it's missile time, baby!

SO I think the reason I liked Returns so much was because it didn't try to be baby's first exploration game, like so many of the metroid games after the first two, and so instead it just becomes like some kind of weird run'n'gun variation on a metroid theme, which I felt really worked well and was good fun. I would prefer that they just take the parry out, or depower it, so that it wasn't so crazy, but they gotta keep the crutch in for baby players, I suppose. And as I noted, the parry balancing meant that the rest of the game is more difficult, so if they took out the crutch, then they'd probably just dumb down the game to keep balance so new players can stand a chance, and in the end I would lose out. So, I suppose it is a necessary compromise.

I can understand why someone wouldn't like the action gameplay style used for Returns, especially if they are used to the typical difficulty level of metroid games (which is to say, what difficulty?) but for me, that challenge is what made it worth playing. I don't often finish metroid games, because they tend to bore me for lack of challenge (either too easy to explore or for having sleep-inducing combat) but this was one that I felt was fun enough to bother completing. So, higher marks from me.

[Strange | 1,700]

Meh on both accounts.

On a related note: Dread was better but also failed to really leave a lasting impact on me. Modern Metroid stuff just doesn’t seem to have the magic anymore.

[JamesRobot | 5,816]

Metroid II is pretty good, but I had to go with a 5 because I wouldn't go out of my way to play it again.  It's definitely worth playing but really my least favorite of the series.

Samus Returns, on the other hand is great.  And the best 3D Metroid by far. 

[Sumez | 2,983]

11 hours ago, koifish said:

They probably kept it because not enough people told them it was lame. I don't mind though; You didn't need to use it at all in Returns, and for me it added challenge, since the enemies were way more aggressive to make you use it. So when you stop using it, the game gets more intense and more fun.

I wish I could say the same. When I tried not using the parry move, most enemies would just be a slog to fight, either completely blocking damage, or being so spongey you could just fire at them for ages to kill them, which isn't my idea of an intense and fun action game.

I think the controls do facilitate this, but the enemies didn't. Honestly, if I'd played Samus Returns before Dread I probably would have been more optimistic about that game, believing they could fix the flaws and make an even better game. It's kind of crazy they went the opposite route, keeping the same flaws and just adding new ones

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

8/10 for the original, didn't even know there was a remake.

[CMR | 521]

8 for original

4 for remake

10 for AM2R fan game remake