NES Classic question

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

Has anyone found a fix for the NES Classic’s input lag?

I just rebuilt my SNES Classic’s game library and tinkering with settings and box arts and all that and and it painfully reminded me that my NES Classic is 100% useless in its current state. 
 

So I’m wondering if anyone got theirs to run games properly. Are there other emulators that work well?

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

Maybe move this to Hacker's Corner? 

[Makar | 1,946]

There’s input lag? I never had an issue when I played it. 

[phart010 | 1,708]

3 hours ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

Has anyone found a fix for the NES Classic’s input lag?

I just rebuilt my SNES Classic’s game library and tinkering with settings and box arts and all that and and it painfully reminded me that my NES Classic is 100% useless in its current state. 
 

So I’m wondering if anyone got theirs to run games properly. Are there other emulators that work well?

First make sure it’s not your tv. Test it on several different models. Always make sure to put the tv video settings to “game mode.” TV manufacturers are aware that lag is a concern for gamers so many of them include a video mode that introduces the minimal amount of lag possible.

[a3quit4s | 4,125]

1 hour ago, Makar said:

There’s input lag? I never had an issue when I played it. 

Same and I played it on a few different TVs. @WhyNotZoidberg is your classic hacked? I had mine hacked a long time ago and it never seemed to run right, once I put it back to factory it worked much better.  

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

1 hour ago, Makar said:

There’s input lag? I never had an issue when I played it. 

What. Try Punch-Out and tell me there’s no input lag.

18 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

Same and I played it on a few different TVs. @WhyNotZoidberg is your classic hacked? I had mine hacked a long time ago and it never seemed to run right, once I put it back to factory it worked much better.  

It is hacked yes. My SNES Classic is hacked too and it plays fine.

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

4 hours ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

Has anyone found a fix for the NES Classic’s input lag?

I just rebuilt my SNES Classic’s game library and tinkering with settings and box arts and all that and and it painfully reminded me that my NES Classic is 100% useless in its current state. 
 

So I’m wondering if anyone got theirs to run games properly. Are there other emulators that work well?

I've not hacked mine, but I agree that the input lag is quite bad. I don't really see how it could be fixed without just changing the software emulator.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, Makar said:

There’s input lag? I never had an issue when I played it. 

There is absolutely input lag on the NES Classic.  I ruined it for my friend who was gushing about getting to play Ninja Gaiden again after years and years by letting him play the same game on my AVS and then again on his NES Classic.  For those with the twitch reflexes and/or retained muscle memory, there is absolutely, positively detectable input lag, and enough to have some effect on your gameplay.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

Yeah, I found the input lag to make most action games unplayable on the one modern TV I tested out mine on...

[ifightdragons | 234]

Tons of input lag on the NES classic, regardless of the TV/monitor.

It can't be fixed.

[fox | 1,673]

@WhyNotZoidberg
 

Odd that you don’t notice it on your SNES classic but do on your NES classic.  They both use Canoe.  I don’t notice a big difference, between the two.

Have you tried different emulators?  You can use retro arch on the NES classic and use different emulators on that.  Or since you have both, you can move your NES stuff over to SNES and dual boot it to use Canoe over there too.

If none of that works then it is prob your tv.  Some have worse input lag than others, so you might want to try a different one and see if the input lag is more acceptable there.

[NESfiend | 1,515]

7 hours ago, ifightdragons said:

Tons of input lag on the NES classic, regardless of the TV/monitor.

It can't be fixed.

I dont have one, but I cant believe this is an issue. Aside from having a lot of titles in one place, I thought the big upside to the nes classic was that it was designed to run on modern flat screen TVs. I assumed it ran seemlessly.

For dinosaurs like me who insist on original hardware, live with old shit cluttered everywhere, and get heckled for it, this thread brings about a very big smile

[DefaultGen | 5,432]

There's sound lag in addition to input lag, two separate issues (in case you're testing input lag with a sound cue). The sound effects are completely borked on the NES Classic, like a quarter of a second delayed. Just attack with Link's sword in TLOZ on the NESC vs an NES. On an NES, the sound plays when Link's sword is going out. On the NECS it plays when his sword is being drawn back in. All the reviews talk up how it's the best NES emulation ever when it's complete trash.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

42 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

I dont have one, but I cant believe this is an issue. Aside from having a lot of titles in one place, I thought the big upside to the nes classic was that it was designed to run on modern flat screen TVs. I assumed it ran seemlessly.

For dinosaurs like me who insist on original hardware, live with old shit cluttered everywhere, and get heckled for it, this thread brings about a very big smile

It's bad. I had mine hooked up to an older plasma screen TV and it wasn't awful, but it was definitely there. Maybe it would be better on a CRT HDTV, but trying to play Punch Out is almost impossible.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

9 hours ago, ifightdragons said:

Tons of input lag on the NES classic, regardless of the TV/monitor.

It can't be fixed.

It can, just not by using it as intended.  Should you use it as, say, a paperweight, BOOM, problem fixed! 

[NESfiend | 1,515]

3 hours ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

It's bad. I had mine hooked up to an older plasma screen TV and it wasn't awful, but it was definitely there. Maybe it would be better on a CRT HDTV, but trying to play Punch Out is almost impossible.

I cant play punchout without original hardware AND a CRTV. There is a barcade near me that sometimes runs a tyson competition. Bar owners know Im a NES degenerate and asked if I had beat tyson when they set it up the first time. I said yes and they got all psyched to see it. Showed up and it was original hardware, but flatscreen tvs. It isnt much of a delay, I think around the same quarter second @DefaultGensaid the mini delays. 

But a quarter second against tyson is a lifetime. For some of his faster punches, you have to be dodging the punch before he even starts throwing it. Long story short, I couldnt beat tyson on the flat screen. I look like a liar using some bs technical excuse. Respect lost. It is what it is. 

Can anyone beat tyson on the mini OR original hardware and a modern flatscreen?

[ifightdragons | 234]

5 hours ago, NESfiend said:

I dont have one, but I cant believe this is an issue. Aside from having a lot of titles in one place, I thought the big upside to the nes classic was that it was designed to run on modern flat screen TVs. I assumed it ran seemlessly.

For dinosaurs like me who insist on original hardware, live with old shit cluttered everywhere, and get heckled for it, this thread brings about a very big smile

Well, you better believe it. I own both the NES and SNES Classic, and the input lag is extremely noticeable if you're perceptive to lag -- which I am.

Some never notice lag, and in certain games lag won't matter much. But for any twitchy platformer - like Mario/Mega Man - it's a total bust. Not to mention Punch-Out.

It was only designed to display and look good on modern TVs. They didn't do much to account for lag. And it shows.

Edited September 19, 2022 by ifightdragons

[ifightdragons | 234]

4 hours ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

It's bad. I had mine hooked up to an older plasma screen TV and it wasn't awful, but it was definitely there. Maybe it would be better on a CRT HDTV, but trying to play Punch Out is almost impossible.

HD CRTs have even more lag than modern displays, unless you're talking about PVM/BVMs. So I wouldn't recommend going that route.

[ifightdragons | 234]

I can also add that I have tried RetroArch on my NES and SNES Classic, and that did nothing to improve the lag. If anything, it was even worse.

They are novelty devices, with excellent physical design and a great UI. Fantastic for a casual trip down memory lane. But, as a dedicated retro gaming device, they are downright bad.

I now display them on my shelves, whilst playing on either RGB-modded original hardware, or better yet, on FPGA systems; zero lag, perfect image quality!

[Tanooki | 4,952]

This whole thing is coming off smelling a little elitist.  I get it though, you get used to old hardware for decades you'll perceive things in a very set way.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

22 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

This whole thing is coming off smelling a little elitist.  I get it though, you get used to old hardware for decades you'll perceive things in a very set way.

It's not perception, it's real.  Perception is just one person or a few people believing that something is true.  The lag inherent in the mini consoles is real and, most importantly demonstrable.  If your reflexes aren't up to the task of detecting it, that's either on you, or your choice of only ever using laggy devices and/or setups while never experiencing (or trying to experience) setups that actually lack said lag.  Here is an example where someone actually sat down and measured the specific lag of various hardware hooked up to different displays and provided the hard numbers.  They show that the lag is real, and present, and the numbers show that it's more than enough to make a difference anywhere that twitchy reactions are a must.

Back when I had a big resurgence in wanting to get my NES out and play games instead of just collecting them, I took my childhood NES and hooked it directly to my LCD TV and wondered how/why I had gotten so rusty and bad at games that I had been sailing through without even thinking about it since my age was in the single digits.  Then, later on, I learned about lag and realized that might be a thing, then hooked my system back up to a CRT and was shocked to discover that all of the little tricks and jumps and perfect timing moves that I kept missing or fouling up on my modern TV were once again effortlessly performed on an old tube TV.  I tried various solutions that didn't involve me keeping a CRT on hand in my living room (RetroN 5, RetroPi, laptop hooked to TV, etc.), none of which were perfect, or lag free, or remotely convenient.  Up until the AVS first shipped and I laid my hands on one, I didn't experience a single HDMI solution for playing classic games on a modern TV that didn't introduce perceptible lag.

After going back to playing in a lag free environment, it's as obvious as ever when a modern device has lag, and all of the mini consoles unfortunately suffer from it.  Does that mean people can't have fun with them?  Absolutely not, especially if they aren't extremely familiar with the game(s) being played.  However, if someone played a game to death in the CRT days and picks up a controller and says something feels off, that the game isn't reacting as quickly as it should be, and it's on one of the modern mini consoles, they're most likely dead to rights correct in their assessment, because the lag is absolutely, positively 100% present and detectable.  If you can't perceive the lag, that doesn't mean that folks who can are somehow set in their ways and you're better, it actually mans that you're less perceptive than they are, at least insofar as that instance of input lag is concerned.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

3 hours ago, ifightdragons said:

They are novelty devices

This is it right here.  These are gimmicky devices for non-retro gamers to plunk some money on and take a trip down memory lane.  These Classic devices are not for hardcore gamers.  Yeah, that may sound "elitist," but I don't care.  Playing micro-transaction games on your cell phone is called "gaming" these days, but that's a damn far cry from sitting down with something like Punch-Out and working your ass off trying to beat Tyson.

The world has changed, but CRTs are still out there, so if you want to play NES for real, and not just as a nostalgia kick, then bite the bullet and keep a CRT in the house - honestly, they're not the devil, and contrary to most of the excuses I hear about space, they actually take up far less space than your average 50+ inch big screen LED.  Get a 19" and stick it in a corner somewhere.

All that said, I bought a NES Classic as a collector of all things NES, so I don't really care about how well it does or doesn't function; it's a shelf piece in my game room and nothing more...

[Tanooki | 4,952]

Just because you have a poor screen that's introducing enough display lag isn't my issue, it was over a decade ago, dumped that TV from gaming.  I've seen this myth - non-myth pop up far too long.  Boo flat panel, they all suck, old games are unplayable, run to the CRT, etc.  Yes a poor emulator can add lag, seen that, even on a good panel, but Nintendo aren't crap peddlers, and canoe is used in the SNES model just fine as well.  I really don't want to argue this with a bunch of purists, just dropped a comment as I'm seeing the same re-run yet again, same line, different year/decade.  My perception level is somewhere in the mid 20ms, figured that out with a junk tv vs a nice one, couldn't play Mario Allstars for crap, utterly unusable.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Tanooki

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

2 hours ago, Tanooki said:

This whole thing is coming off smelling a little elitist.  I get it though, you get used to old hardware for decades you'll perceive things in a very set way.

I don’t know man. In MTPO at first I thought the controller was eating inputs, but really it was me doing an extra press in reaction to what I saw on the screen. By the time I land 5-6 left/rights I am a full input behind.

And in both Gradius and Life Force (I 1cc’d Life Force at one point) I can definitely tell that the ship moves a few pixels after I let go of the direction. Crash right into the ceiling or floor.

 

 

[NESfiend | 1,515]

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

This is it right here.  These are gimmicky devices for non-retro gamers to plunk some money on and take a trip down memory lane.  These Classic devices are not for hardcore gamers.  Yeah, that may sound "elitist," but I don't care.  

I wouldnt call grabbing a crtv on craigs list someone else is willing to give away just to get it the hell out, an elitist endeavor. Nor is it really necessary for most games. I dont have a mini, but with my toploader and upstairs flat screen, I dont run into issues with 90% of nes games. I assume though that if this problem only affected extremes on the mini, this thread wouldn't be filled with complaints. 

Tyson is def the extreme example where I wouldnt dream of playing on anything that isnt a CRTV. Most other games, I'm not bothering to walk down a set of stairs to the CRTV. Golf games with a swing meter (mario golf 64, nes open, etc), I also would really rather play CRTV. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by NESfiend