NES Classic question

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

15 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

I wouldnt call grabbing a crtv on craigs list someone else is willing to give away just to get it the hell out, an elitist endeavor. Nor is it really necessary for most games. I dont have a mini, but with my toploader and upstairs flat screen, I dont run into issues with 90% of nes games. I assume though that if this problem only affected extremes on the mini, this thread wouldn't be filled with complaints. 

Tyson is def the extreme example where I wouldnt dream of playing on anything that isnt a CRTV. Most other games, I'm not bothering to walk down a set of stairs to the CRTV. Golf games with a swing meter (mario golf 64, nes open, etc), I also would really rather play CRTV. 

Well it definitely depends on the genre.  For Final Fantasy, the NES Classic is obviously fine.  But for action games that require precision...  here's a personal anecdote: I tried to beat the Turbo Tunnel (Battletoads) at wiz's house once a few years ago on his flatscreen LED and absolutely could not do it after like 50 tries.  On a CRT I have beaten Battletoads no warps with only two deaths and have absolutely no trouble with the Turbo tunnel.  Other people's mileage may vary, I guess, but at the end of the day, why not remove ambiguities and give yourself the best possible chance to succeed?  How you do one thing is how you do everything - for those of you who do your retro gaming half-assed (not meaning you, NESFiend), are you living the rest of your lives half-assed as well??????

Edited September 20, 2022 by Dr. Morbis

[Tulpa | 3,534]

10 hours ago, NESfiend said:

I dont have one, but I cant believe this is an issue. Aside from having a lot of titles in one place, I thought the big upside to the nes classic was that it was designed to run on modern flat screen TVs.

Because the main concern was just getting NES games to look good on a 60" 4K TV. Most people who bought the Classic bought it to play Mario a couple of times a month. Most probably can't get past Bald Bull anyway.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Nes Classic is 100% for casuals and thats ok. 
 

Just too bad all the sweaty nerds bought them anyways

[Brickman | 4,014]

I thought it was common knowledge that the NES & SNES classic have input lag on modern TV's? I'm a bit surprised that some people didn't know that.

They were just a nice novelty idea to sell so people who don't play many older games can relive some classics or collectors to put on their shelf.

If you want to play on modern TV's then Analogue system are the best option.

[ifightdragons | 234]

To clarify: You do NOT need a CRT to play classic games.

FPGA consoles + any decent modern display will work wonders. Same with original hardware on any decent line multiplier or scaler with minimum lag.

20 ms of lag is a lot. My threshold is below 5 ms, but this will vary from person to person.

If someone can't detect that the NES/SNES classic is awfully laggy, though... They haven't really tested it thoroughly enough with the proper games. It actually hinders normal running and jumping in games like Mario, it's that bad.

[phart010 | 1,708]

10 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

The world has changed, but CRTs are still out there, so if you want to play NES for real, and not just as a nostalgia kick, then bite the bullet and keep a CRT in the house -

Or outside the house

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

14 hours ago, NESfiend said:

I cant play punchout without original hardware AND a CRTV. There is a barcade near me that sometimes runs a tyson competition. Bar owners know Im a NES degenerate and asked if I had beat tyson when they set it up the first time. I said yes and they got all psyched to see it. Showed up and it was original hardware, but flatscreen tvs. It isnt much of a delay, I think around the same quarter second @DefaultGensaid the mini delays. 

But a quarter second against tyson is a lifetime. For some of his faster punches, you have to be dodging the punch before he even starts throwing it. Long story short, I couldnt beat tyson on the flat screen. I look like a liar using some bs technical excuse. Respect lost. It is what it is. 

Can anyone beat tyson on the mini OR original hardware and a modern flatscreen?

I beat Mr. Dream on the NES classic edition, but for the first 1:30 when he throws the 1 hit knockdown uppercuts I literally had to dodge before he punched and hoped that I didn't time it wrong. I could beat him around 1 out of 10 times, compared to being able to beat Tyson without any trouble on original hardware.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

8 hours ago, Brickman said:

I thought it was common knowledge that the NES & SNES classic have input lag on modern TV's? I'm a bit surprised that some people didn't know that.

They were just a nice novelty idea to sell so people who don't play many older games can relive some classics or collectors to put on their shelf.

If you want to play on modern TV's then Analogue system are the best option.

Oh I knew. I’m only here asking if anyone managed to make it better by now.

[glazball | 172]

I've only spent a few minutes with my friend's NES Classic, and here is what I noticed in less than 5 minutes with the turd (I'm sorry, gaming novelty):

At the flag in Super Mario Bros, if you wait for the time to end in 0 to start running (so that you hit the flag when time ends in 6), the lag will cause you to miss the fireworks.  Like many of you, I've been playing this game for over 35 years so it's easy to notice.

[Tulpa | 3,534]

I remember the Turner bros (forget their usernames) posted a video about the lag. Said the TV played nice with their Wii Virtual Console over component and HiDef NES over HDMI without that amount of lag.

 

[Tanooki | 4,952]

22 hours ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

I don’t know man. In MTPO at first I thought the controller was eating inputs, but really it was me doing an extra press in reaction to what I saw on the screen. By the time I land 5-6 left/rights I am a full input behind.

And in both Gradius and Life Force (I 1cc’d Life Force at one point) I can definitely tell that the ship moves a few pixels after I let go of the direction. Crash right into the ceiling or floor.

 

 

Look I'm not looking to start a pissing match, but I've been through this in various decades.  I used to blame this or that.  Originally I shat all over emulators using computer in the late 90s into the earlier 00s.  Now I know largely they developed from garbage into greatness around 1996-00 roughly, but I could always perform worse and felt it was off.  I'd blame frame skips, the screen, the emulator, using a crappy PC controller (not actually crappy, good gravis pads etc) as it just didn't *feel* right and I couldn't do as I did using my well broken in controllers, real hardware, and my then CRT (WEGA/Trinitron) at the time.  It set me off, so I relegated emulators as second class, meant for testing out potential buys, being really lazy and not caring on the PC, etc.  The computers and parts vs specs I was well on or over expectation for peak too.  I can handle the games I've dug into on the NES CE as well as I can on the old consoles still on the same screen, same screen settings.  I went through the display lag bs when I was on NA, dumped a good copy of SMAS (Wii) thinking it was shit coding, nope...shit Samsung (still have it, works fine for TV/movies.)  After that I bought TVs that had no higher than a 26ms refresh rate on the old displaylag.com site and it worked, issues gone.  Shooters, testy platformers, etc.  That's why I'm throwing shade because going into one video after another, you see people having the same comment, attitude, comparison, they're also largely not teens and 20 somethings, but grown adults who used the old stuff first or second hand(me downs) set in their ways.  What you're describing to me I blamed like hell 20 years+ ago on stuff, same stuff, just some random geniuses code vs Nintendo internal.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

35 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Look I'm not looking to start a pissing match, but I've been through this in various decades.  I used to blame this or that.  Originally I shat all over emulators using computer in the late 90s into the earlier 00s.  Now I know largely they developed from garbage into greatness around 1996-00 roughly, but I could always perform worse and felt it was off.  I'd blame frame skips, the screen, the emulator, using a crappy PC controller (not actually crappy, good gravis pads etc) as it just didn't *feel* right and I couldn't do as I did using my well broken in controllers, real hardware, and my then CRT (WEGA/Trinitron) at the time.  It set me off, so I relegated emulators as second class, meant for testing out potential buys, being really lazy and not caring on the PC, etc.  The computers and parts vs specs I was well on or over expectation for peak too.  I can handle the games I've dug into on the NES CE as well as I can on the old consoles still on the same screen, same screen settings.  I went through the display lag bs when I was on NA, dumped a good copy of SMAS (Wii) thinking it was shit coding, nope...shit Samsung (still have it, works fine for TV/movies.)  After that I bought TVs that had no higher than a 26ms refresh rate on the old displaylag.com site and it worked, issues gone.  Shooters, testy platformers, etc.  That's why I'm throwing shade because going into one video after another, you see people having the same comment, attitude, comparison, they're also largely not teens and 20 somethings, but grown adults who used the old stuff first or second hand(me downs) set in their ways.  What you're describing to me I blamed like hell 20 years+ ago on stuff, same stuff, just some random geniuses code vs Nintendo internal.

No Im just asking if there’s a better emulator out there for my NES Classic lol. 

[Tanooki | 4,952]

Just now, WhyNotZoidberg said:

No Im just asking if there’s a better emulator out there for my NES Classic lol. 

Nope, there's just retroarch last I checked, but it has been awhile.

[ifightdragons | 234]

20 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Look I'm not looking to start a pissing match, but I've been through this in various decades.  I used to blame this or that.  Originally I shat all over emulators using computer in the late 90s into the earlier 00s.  Now I know largely they developed from garbage into greatness around 1996-00 roughly, but I could always perform worse and felt it was off.  I'd blame frame skips, the screen, the emulator, using a crappy PC controller (not actually crappy, good gravis pads etc) as it just didn't *feel* right and I couldn't do as I did using my well broken in controllers, real hardware, and my then CRT (WEGA/Trinitron) at the time.  It set me off, so I relegated emulators as second class, meant for testing out potential buys, being really lazy and not caring on the PC, etc.  The computers and parts vs specs I was well on or over expectation for peak too.  I can handle the games I've dug into on the NES CE as well as I can on the old consoles still on the same screen, same screen settings.  I went through the display lag bs when I was on NA, dumped a good copy of SMAS (Wii) thinking it was shit coding, nope...shit Samsung (still have it, works fine for TV/movies.)  After that I bought TVs that had no higher than a 26ms refresh rate on the old displaylag.com site and it worked, issues gone.  Shooters, testy platformers, etc.  That's why I'm throwing shade because going into one video after another, you see people having the same comment, attitude, comparison, they're also largely not teens and 20 somethings, but grown adults who used the old stuff first or second hand(me downs) set in their ways.  What you're describing to me I blamed like hell 20 years+ ago on stuff, same stuff, just some random geniuses code vs Nintendo internal.

So basically you're taking your personal accounts, and extrapolating that onto others' experience... all the while not admitting you are obviously much less perceptive to lag than other people.

If you can't notice the lag of the NES Classic, Nintendo Switch Online, or other official emulators, that's on you. And there's no harm in that! As long as you're enjoying the games, that's all that should matter to you.

But throwing shade on people who actually notice how awfully laggy some of these actually are, is just weird. The lag is there, and no amount of discussion is going to change that fact.

There's no elitism in acknowledging something factual. And no one is going to look down on someone for enjoying their NES Classic. It has its place, and is great for a casual stroll down memory lane. It's just not a very fitting solution if you're perceptive to lag on an above average level.

As a side-note: Modern consoles and games compensate for lag, and most modern games like shooters and platformers take lag into account to make the experience feel less laggy. Input lag usually only is a problem with retro games, and modern, competitive games.

[phart010 | 1,708]

Someone actually did a study at one point to objectively measure the input response time of NES on crt versus the mini on lcd. There was a YouTube video on it.

There is measurable lag on the mini but it wasn’t crazy high

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

13 hours ago, phart010 said:

Someone actually did a study at one point to objectively measure the input response time of NES on crt versus the mini on lcd. There was a YouTube video on it.

There is measurable lag on the mini but it wasn’t crazy high

I guess it depends on what your definition of "crazy high" is, though.  The stuff I've seen all comes back saying it's between 1/4 and 1/3 of a second, which is more than enough to feel and affect gameplay on titles that require any sort of split second timing to play and/or perform fancy moves on.  MTPO tends to be the penultimate example for this, due to the excruciatingly split second timing you have to have to survive a fight with him, let alone beat him.  I'd say the highest end of Tetris playing would be another good example, as that stuff gets outright insane at the uppermost levels of play.

No, it's not "crazy" the way the delay is in badly dubbed movies, but it's far more than is acceptable or necessary to make a difference.

Edited September 23, 2022 by darkchylde28

[TDIRunner | 2,772]

I would consider any lag that makes a game unplayable to be "crazy high."  But as others have mentioned, lag making game unplayable has a lot to do with whether or not you've played a game enough to develop muscle memory.  Punch Out is probably one of the better examples.  Anyone who played the original enough to beat it would probably have trouble with even the slightest bit of lag introduced.  However, someone who never played the original and practiced on the Mini might be able to get used to the lagged version enough to beat the game.  That person might even have trouble if they went back to the original NES and tried to play it with zero lag.